Sudden self-mutilation during incubation in Green cheek conure

[emerillion]

Hello all,

New here, and shocked by my 10 year old hand-reared Green cheeked conure suddenly mutilating herself in her nestbox. I wondered if anyone had any knowledge of anything similar happening elsewhere? I'm sorry this is a bit of a long post but I thought I'd give as much detail as possible in case anyone else has gone through this and has any advice.

She laid three eggs a couple of weeks ago (infertile: she's hand-reared and there's just me and her in the house) and sat on them very tightly in her nestbox. She came out twice, three times a day to eat, poo and drink. I wasn't handling her very much at this point, because she just wanted to be on the eggs, but was in the same room with her pretty much all the time (I work from home.) On Sunday a.m. she came off the eggs and her beak and chest feathers were covered in blood. I picked her up and saw to my total horror the skin all over her breast was bruised dark red and she'd bitten a huge hole right over her breastbone - I could see the pectoral muscles.

It was horrendous. She must have been doped up on self-harm endorphins because she behaved completely normally all the way to the emergency vet appointment -- feeding, drinking, preening, clambing all over her cage. The vet gave her three stitches and an elizabethan cone. She's been back with me three days - obviously I've removed the eggs - and she seems fine in herself, is feeding and getting head-scratches with obvious pleasure, but obviously I am in a terrible state about this. The wound itself is healing fine, but her voice is very croaky. This also worries me.

The vet wondered whether the bruising/skin problem might have pre-dated the mutilation, and that maybe she was biting herself because it hurt/itched. She's on baytril now. But I'm absolutely horrified by what's happened. Does anyone have any suggestions? Stress from egg-laying? An infection? Is there anything else it might be?

Also -- I shall look at the boards too in case this has already been answered but I'm having terrible, terrible trouble getting baytril into her. Does anyone have a foolproof method to disguise the taste?

Sorry about going on but this has been a terrible shock and so totally out of the blue.

Very best wishes to everyone and hope someone might have some answers! -- Helen.

PS. She's never plucked before, is full flighted, and fed all sorts of fruits/leafy vegetables along with Avian Specific parakeet/conure mix. Never had any health problems with her. She hasn't laid before because I've moved around quite a lot over the last ten years and only now have been settled in one place long enough for her, I think.

 

[DallyTsuka]

my female lovebird plucks herself when sitting on eggs, we think to line the nest box, but she does not chew her skin.

she does however have a history of chewing the skin off her legs.

will she drink any fruit juice? maybe you can put a small amount of fruit juice in a syringe with the meds and see if it helps with the taste better. i would not give it in water or juice in a cup because you need to get the full dose in.

or, if she will accept handfeeding formula, you can mix the dose of baytril in that as well and syringe it to her if she will accept it.

 

[HexDevil]

Holy Cow! Best Wishes!

 

[weco]

Do you live in a dry climate or is your home overly dry? We were discussing giardia earlier on another thread and if a bird has an under the skin giardia infection that can cause itching & self-mutilation as the bird tries to rid itself of the irritation.....

Look carefully at her skin & if it looks dry & flaky, run to possibility of giardia infestation past your vet.....take a look under the wings & thighs also.....just my best guesses.....

Good luck.....

 

[brianlinkles]

I'm wondering why if she is alone and you don't breed her that she has a nestbox? Maybe I'm missing something or misread.

 

[Parrotdise]

Wow i have not heard of that. That's terrible. My guess would be that she is frustrated with the eggs not hatching. Normally it is good to leave the eggs in for a few days until the bird loses interest, Then remove them. This helps keep them from laying eggs over and over. Sounds like you were doing that.

If she were my bird i would first make sure there was no medical reason she did this. Next i would let her calm down a bit. If you are able to change her cage i would place her in a different cage. New toys, perches nothing that can become a nesting type toy. If you can't change her cage at least move the toys and perches around. I would try to teach some foraging or clicker tricks to help get her mind off of other things. What do you feed her?

Hope this gets better soon...

 

[crimson]

It's normal for some birds to pluck when nesting. Unfortunately her behaviour is quite sounds extreme.

when you give her baytril, unless the directions on the bottle say to administer in the water, you must give it to her by mouth. the vets should have given you a syringe.

what I do with my birds, and if I don't have a second pair of hands around to help, I grab a clean hand towel, wrap the bird up gently leaving the head exposed. I have everything set up prior to doing this so everything I need is right where I want it. sometimes I like to sit on the floor, and I hold the birds head gently, and put the syringe in the side of the beak. It takes a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, it's relatively easy.

 

[Jtbirds]

Well I'd defiantly go with the vet, but my suggestion remove the nest box she has no need for this and IMO is sexually frustrated because of it and could be root of the mutaliting.

 

[ShellyBorg]

I would never give a nonbreeder a nest box. These are highly intelligent animals and I am sure they morn over the "loss" of there eggs. If a egg is not kept warm enough they will not start to develop. It may be her instincts told her to add more feathers to keep them warmer and when she ran out she kept trying. I am so glad things worked out ok.

 

[DallyTsuka]

well, it's possible the bird laid before a box was put up. i know munch lays every winter, we dont give a nest until she lays. otherwise she keeps laying off perches and breaking them all in a nonstop cycle. otherwise, they dont need a box.

but i do wonder at the mutilation being due to lack of nest material (to the bird's approval anyways lol) as mentioned above. it makes sense that it could be a possibility

 

[emerillion]

Thank you everyone for really brilliant responses.

I understand people's worries about the box. She's had a box for her entire 10 year-life as a 'sleep box'/refuge box - it is an ordinary parakeet nestbox which, to save space in the cage, I early on laid on top of the cage with the hole facing down above a favourite perch. She's always scooted up vertically into the box and slept in there. The box has never been an issue before. (I've removed it now!). I'm thinking that "mutilation being due to lack of nest material" could be the key here. I supplied her with all sorts of nesting material but obviously with the entry-hole pointing downwards it all got kicked out, though she sat on the eggs very tightly. I could hear her gnawing at the wooden floor of the box (which isn't really gnawable-through) and I'm thinking that she may have transferred her attentions to herself. Shudder.

Thank you also for baytril advice. I'm managing to get it into her bit by bit very diluted in applejuice. Crossing fingers.

Thank you and praying for her quick recovery. One more question (embarrassed!) in this scenario how long do you think the elizabethan collar should be left on? Without the stimulus of the eggs/nestbox I don't know if she'll start eating herself again but still worried.

Thank you again you are a marvellous lot. Helen.

 

[Jtbirds]

well ill tell you what nothing you do will make oral baytril better sadly... the stuff is just horrible tasting. when i first got it for my birds i tasted it as my vet had stated taste it so you know why those birds dont like it... I tried adding everything and anything and so has the rescue none of it has worked.

As for the nestbox mutalation is a process that begins at an early age and strikes throughout years later, so being sexuaully flustrated because of tha box even though it is 10 years down the road can still be the issue. Glad you removed it as it was truely the best thing to do.

Leave the collar on however long the vet recommends you to, although once a mutalator always one. Ive seen birds take the collars off then 3 years later rip a hole in themselves and worse then before. One day a trigger will hit and they can do it again so you must watch closely once the collar is off. We had a m2 that no matter when you took the collar off he would dig a hole in himself. I would suggest go with the vet and then take it from there with the collar

 

[emerillion]

Thanks again. I'm managing to get the Baytril down using Ribena (diluted) so crossing my fingers.

I've just heard from a friend of mine who keeps parrots and recommends 10% Baytril injected through an insulin needle. Apparently at that concentration not much more than a needleful is needed, and the needle is so thin the parrot doesn't really feel it. She says Baytril's hard on the bird's digestive system and the insulin needle is the route they've found best. I'll have a chat with my vet tomorrow, but I think with another two or three days left of the course maybe sticking to Ribena is the best option.

Thanks again all of you. So glad to have come here and poured out my troubles and received such warm and helpful replies. Helen.

 

[Jtbirds]

If your vet said give it PO then do that because he knows best... ive done the injectable route as well and it doesnt make much of a difference it still throws off there eating and digestive tract and so on... There are really no meds made for just avains, baytril is for swine really so it is pretty tough on our avain friends

 

[aboyce76]

My breeder and I were talking one day and she told me that her female BCC had plucked her chest feathers in anticipation of breeding season/eggs. She told me that the females pluck their chest feathers so that when they are sitting on the eggs the warmth of their chest radiates directly on the eggs. I don't have egg layers so I can't say with 100% certainty but it made since when she said it. Feathers hold the heat close to the mommy's body so it would make since that they would want to get rid of the insulator so that they could "share the warmth".

 

[Peeker]

So sorry to hear this happened! I'm sure it's been very scary and I wouldn't think of removing the collar until the vet has re-seen the bird to remove stitches. IMO it would be safest to wait until the woulds completely heal.

It's good you have removed the nest box and I would also recommend avoiding and petting of your bird that she could perceive as sexual. Keep the petting above the neck.

My guess is that the plucking went overboard and it started with breeding triggers.

I have a bird who lays eggs now and again and I just let them fall from the perch. Giving her a nestbox would only encourage a behavior that I wish to discourage.

 

[crimson]

Thank you everyone for really brilliant responses.

I understand people's worries about the box. She's had a box for her entire 10 year-life as a 'sleep box'/refuge box - it is an ordinary parakeet nestbox which, to save space in the cage, I early on laid on top of the cage with the hole facing down above a favourite perch. She's always scooted up vertically into the box and slept in there. The box has never been an issue before. (I've removed it now!). I'm thinking that "mutilation being due to lack of nest material" could be the key here. I supplied her with all sorts of nesting material but obviously with the entry-hole pointing downwards it all got kicked out, though she sat on the eggs very tightly. I could hear her gnawing at the wooden floor of the box (which isn't really gnawable-through) and I'm thinking that she may have transferred her attentions to herself. Shudder.

Thank you also for baytril advice. I'm managing to get it into her bit by bit very diluted in applejuice. Crossing fingers.

Thank you and praying for her quick recovery. One more question (embarrassed!) in this scenario how long do you think the elizabethan collar should be left on? Without the stimulus of the eggs/nestbox I don't know if she'll start eating herself again but still worried.

Thank you again you are a marvellous lot. Helen.

you are not suppose to mix Baytril with any liquid. it will dilute the concentration strength, and not get the proper dosage...unless advised by your vet.

that is why I suggested to give it directly into the mouth with a syringe.

 

[Jtbirds]

crimson most vets say to mix it with a syrup aslong as they take all of it, they are still getting the same amount of medicine, if you shoot some out of the side then it is an issue, but its pretty easy to get it all down. The medicine in syrup is suppose to be really good as the suger helps a sick bird rebuild with the extra energy and so on. Ether way it tastes bad so you are better off just giving it straight up.

 

[emerillion]

Re: diluting Baytril. My vet advised me to do what I am doing, because of the difficulty of administering it via syringe to a bird with recent stitches -- healing would not be well-served by grabbing/wrapping in towel/struggling. He said as long as the full dose went in orally per day, no matter if diluted with other liquid, it would be fine. He even talked at length to Bayer about this on the phone. I am currently full of relief that I'm managing to get antibiotics into her without causing her further trauma. But thank you for your concern.

 

[crimson]

your welcome, hope he improves quickly!