Still having parakeet problems + nail clipping

[Puddlingo]

Hello, everyone!

I have posted here a few times before about my seemingly "untrainable" parakeet, Kiko.

The story (again) is that I bought him back in April 2011, three years ago. Before I had gotten him, I did all of the research (which is the only reason my mom let me get him). I had books, printed-out articles, and everything else you can think of. I thought that I had everything down, but I guess not.

I've tried everything these past 3 years (although I guess I gave up a while ago). I've tried keeping my hand in the cage for hours and hours on end, I've tried feeding him from my hand, I've wanted to try clicker training but I don't see how that's possible if everytime I put my hand in the cage he flies around like crazy.

I just really feel bad for him, I take very good care of him with cleaning his cage once a week, giving him fresh food and water daily, and he spends most of his time outside, happily chirping with the other birdies that he hears (I don't put him out when it's too cold though, of course). I just really want to play and bond with him and I'm afraid that I'm not giving him the love and care he deserves.

Is it too late to begin trying to train him again? Even when I'm lucky to get my finger close enough to pet him, he always lunges and tries to bite me and I pull away. Is there anywhere where I could get help with training him? Can avian vets (I have one or two near me) help with training?

Oh, and one more thing. His toenails have grown disgustingly ... long. I can't tell if they're hurting him or not, he's not limping and his feet look to be fine. But they're in this curly, C-shape, which I think they grew that way because of him sitting on his perches. I would like to cut them, of course, but how can I cut him if he won't even look at my hand without freaking out? Can Petsmart cut them, or an avian vet?

Thank you guys for looking at this!

 

[GW.Joe]

Is it too late to begin trying to train him again? Even when I'm lucky to get my finger close enough to pet him, he always lunges and tries to bite me and I pull away.

It's never too late... It just may be a little harder

Birds are VERY smart (about 4th on the list of most Intelligent animals right under Dolphins Chimps and Elephants)

Basically what you're describing is the bird has trained you instead of you training the bird
The bird has "learned" all he has to do is lunge at you and you will stop "bothering him" LOL

To change this you must work with the bird everyday, in a very short time you would start to see results

For example, millet is an excellent training tool, But how you give the bird millet will determine if the bird learns from you, Start out by attaching a SMALL (no more than the bird could eat in a half hour) piece of millet to the cage bars, in the same spot every day as close to the door as possible, Then after a few days try holding the millet at the cage bars and see if you can get the budgie to take it from you, reply here and let me know how you make out.

Is there anywhere where I could get help with training him? Can avian vets (I have one or two near me) help with training?

YouTube is a wealth of information, everything you want to learn is on the Internet, there is no easy fix to this, you need to step up and take control the situation, and spend the time with the Bird, Remember you only get out of life what you put into it!!

His toenails have grown disgustingly ... long, which I think they grew that way because of him sitting on his perches, Can Petsmart cut them, or an avian vet?

Of course you can pay someone to trim the nails for you, but for good toenail maintenance some of the birds perches should be the type designed to help keep his nails short.

Joe

 

[MikeyTN]

The vet clinic that's with petsmart will do nails. So have that done first then start the training process. This was something we've discussed before about cage potatoes, sometimes you just have to grab them to get them out of their cage if you want to train. Bring Kiko to a small enclosed room to start the training process if you prefer not to clip.

 

[Puddlingo]

Thank you both for the suggestions!!! I'll try the thing with the millet, I would try to let him out of his cage but I can't pick him up to get him out.

I'll probably have PetSmart clip his nails, although I'm not sure how they are going to do it as Kiko won't let anyone pick him up.

I tried keeping my hand in the cage today with some food in it, he just backed away from it and started flapping about. How can I get him used to it?

 

[strudel]

I got to a point where I realised that I was being too reticent with my budgies. Their natural tendency is to fly about, they aren't really ever going to CHOOSE coming to you. I decided to be a bit more assertive and Dottie then learnt to step up. It was a firmness of intention that did it for me. I think my uncertainty and frustration were also influencing how she was reacting to me. When I decided that we were having a "lesson" and what we were going to do, I think she felt more settled as well, we both relaxed and things improved. It wasn't force but it was a more assertive attitude to what was going to happen. "You're going on my finger and you're getting some millet, and then I'm going to leave you be". And repeating the process later on. She got to learn that this little event did not result in her murder or sale into slavery and she stopped the frantic trying to get away stuff.

EDIT: in the pet shop and at the vet, they just grab them, but they know how to do it because they are catching birds all the time.

 

[Puddlingo]

I am trying to be as assertive as possible, but I just don't know what to do. Today I read to Kiko (to get him used to my voice) and he got as far away from me as he could. He started eating in front of me, which I don't know if he was uncomfortable or not, and he kept opening and closing his mouth very quickly after (what does this mean)?

I just feel like it's hopeless. He freaks out when I WALK by his cage. I really wish that I could hire someone to train him, or at least show me how ... I found a parakeet at my local animal rescue and I am waiting to hear back from them on whether or not he is trained.

 

[GW.Joe]

I think strudel is right and you need to be MUCH more assertive

It almost sounds like you are scared of your Budgie

All birds can sense if you are not sure of yourself

You said you don't know what to do, I think you should watch a bunch of YouTube video about handling and training your bird

Joe

 

[MonicaMc]

I was able to get 5 adult, flighted budgies, none of which were tame, to fly to me and eat from my hands. (later did this with 5 adult cockatiels as well, tameness varied) All I did was feed them food from my hands first thing in the morning. Nothing else.



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUx81WHTUwk"]1 Bird in hand Leads to Many - YouTube[/ame]




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSm4uFZzVU"]More Budgies!!!! - YouTube[/ame]




If your budgie has overgrown nails, he could have liver failure and may need to get a blood panel done by an avian vet, then supplements and a corrected diet to help that.

 

[strudel]

I just feel like it's hopeless.

It's not. If you feel unsure, your bird will be picking up on that. I agree with GW Joe, watch youtube. That's what I did. When I was confident that I knew what I was trying to do (copying the lady from youtube, basically), I got my head into an "I am doing this, and YOU are doing this" mode and then gave it a go and it worked.

With the step up, I had to learn that I wasn't just putting my finger out, I had to push on her tummy and sort of knock her off her feet onto my finger (or give her nowhere else to go but to put her feet on me). I'll try to find the video that I found helpful. The lady's bird was fluttering around, and she just keep doing it.

It's not hopeless, we all feel that way. My new weiros weren't tame and we're coming along now, even though they did the frantic trying-to-escape thing that makes you feel so bad..... Don't give up on your bird in favour of one already trained. Persevere.

EDIT: I am just trying to find that video - I can see why you are discouraged. Most of the videos show a bird just sitting there. Not helpful when you are at your stage of things. Makes you feel like the bird should just be sitting there. I didn't have that, either, don't worry.

 

[MonicaMc]

I don't agree with the method of pushing into a birds stomach. It can result in avoidance behaviors.



Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk: Help! My Parrot Wont Step Up!

 

[strudel]

There's a difference between force and assertiveness. It's hard to understand the difference. I haven't explained it well, I acknowledge that, but I wasn't actually DOING anything so nothing was happening, you need to be a bit assertive towards the bird.

No force! I did say that before. Also, the important thing is the reinforcement of the desired behaviour, and you aren't trying this until you've worked up to it. aargh. this training thing is a nightmare....

 

[MonicaMc]

But does the bird know the difference?



Is being pushed off balance a positive experience for the bird?

 

[strudel]

Is being pushed off balance a positive experience for the bird?

Yep, because she got millet and she stayed there. (I didn't push her off balance as such, just moved my finger under her tummy and she stepped on it, instead of just putting it there and waiting for her to decide what it was I was wanting..... She didn't know, I had to show her. This was after I'd had her for ages, she "knew" me, she wasn't scared of me. OP seems at an earlier stage in the process and needs to work on the "getting to know" part more, but there was a line that I missed, because I wasn't showing Dottie what I wanted. After I MOVED my finger towards her, she started getting it. She got her reward, she learnt how to do it.

Oh, and she could get straight off the other side if she didn't want to be there. She wasn't restrained in any way.

 

[MonicaMc]

It's good that she didn't find the situation stressful.


I'm curious to know though.... instead of you going to her, could you have taught her to come to you for the same end result? I mean, instead of having to push into her stomach to get her to step up, could you have rewarded her for walking towards you, touching you, then stepping onto you? And it doesn't even have to be a physical step up. You could put your hand against the cage, against the perch or on top of it. Basically, trying to make your hand an extension of what they are already on, then teaching the bird to move onto your hand from where they are at.

 

[strudel]

Depends on the bird, I reckon.

Have you got or had budgies, Monica? They aren't the same as my weiros and my galah, they are tiny littly flitty fluttery things. They don't walk about like my other bigger "people", they fly about. Getting one to sit still long enough to then be interested is probably do-able if you make them hungry, but getting one to fly to you wouldn't seem likely. It really depends on the "person". I've never really bothered taming mine, I just let them be. I don't care if they talk or sit on my shoulder, they just do their "thing" and I let them. I just let them fly about and sit on their bits of tree and stuff. It doesn't bother me, but OP is obviously wanted a tame bird. Maybe OP could try to find an experienced "bird" person to give some hands-on advice.

I quite liked this lady, she seems sensible. A lot of the videos give a misleading picture as to how slowly you might need to take your steps to get to the "touching" stage.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_N91_vzy_k]Caring for Parakeets : Taming a Parakeet - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MonicaMc]

Look at post #8 in this thread.


http://www.parrotforums.com/budgies...rakeet-problems-nail-clipping.html#post394744




My desire wasn't to tame the budgies. My desire was not to get them to sit on my shoulders. They were fed every day and never lost weight. My only desire was to get a small flock of budgies to be comfortable enough to eat from my hand.

One person. Five budgies. All adults. None tame. If I could do *THAT* without any desire to go further, what could *ONE* person do with *ONE* bird?







I thought that was the end of my "experiment". I was wrong. I then did the same with five adult cockatiels. All but one flighted. Their tameness ranged from "previously tame" to "panic mode".



It started with just one bird following me around the room. Twice, she landed on me, a behavior she had never done before. First time I thought she was a different tiel, until she flew off and I turned my head to notice it was not the bird I thought it was. Two weeks after she started this new behavior, I finally figured out what she wanted. And so I fed her. (she had been watching me feed the budgies by hand)



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88bN30qOjo"]Sunshine in the Morning - YouTube[/ame]




And then I got a new tiel in. And she watched me feeding the first tiel. A tiel who had been in at least 3 homes prior to mine. Her last home she was fed wild bird seed. When the people refreshed her food dish, they'd dump it on the cage bottom and refill the dish. Mice were jumping into her cage to eat the seed, even in broad daylight. That was the home where she lost her mate of who knows how many years. She wasn't a pet. Just a pretty little thing in a cage.



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9w9w8nMRmw"]Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]



I continued feeding her because she continued to want this behavior between us. Her behavior gradually changed. You can see it in the next video.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH9ZWxhCSAE"]Not So Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]




Which eventually led to me feeding three other cockatiels by hand, including one male so skittish that I could not get anywhere close to him without him freaking out and flying away from me. He's still a skittish bird, but he has since calmed down quite a lot since I started feeding him by hand. And there's also Tomi Girl whom was nearly starved to death (below 60 grams in weight, when the average cockatiel is 90+ grams) living in a home over-run with chain smokers who kept and fed cats (indoor/outdoor cats) that continuously reproduced. A lot of kittens had respiratory problems. Air so thick with smoke that you could see the clouds of smoke move as you walked through the room. Ceiling stained yellow with nicotine. House dark. Oh, and Tomi Girl became a chronic egg layer at that house. Not only was she being starved to death, she was laying eggs!

Tomi Girl is the first tiel in this video. Pistachio (skittish male) is the second tiel. (ignore Casey, the third tiel!)


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjKmHswgiHs"]Cockatiel Feeding - April 24th - YouTube[/ame]





So now we're up to one person. Ten birds. All adults. All became comfortable enough to eat from my hands. Simply imagine what one person could do with a single bird!

 

[Puddlingo]

I just don't know how assertive I can be without scaring him.

The other day he was just about to eat food out of my hand! I had it in there for a good 30 minutes, he flew to the perch closest to my hand and kept clinging to the side of the cage, scooting down and down, then back to his perch. He's almost like "I don't know whether to trust her or not!" He eventually flew back to his normal perch. I tried it again today, with just holding the food bowl instead of the food in my hand, and he got as far away from me as possible. :/ I could tell he wanted it, but he's trying to resist as hard as he can.

Now what? Should I keep continuing this process?

 

[strudel]

Absolutely keep continuing offering the food, it doesn't matter that he changed his mind, it's progress . You might have to wait the same time again for him to give it another go, but persist and he might decide that the risk of "you" is worth taking to have the yummy food.

When you are holding the food, relax and put all hopes that he'll come to you out of your head. You are just sitting. No bird, no hopes, no nothing. If you tense up because you go "yes, yes, maybe NOW!" the animal can feel/see that tension. Just stay relaxed, think about chocolate or something. If he does decide to go on you, don't react, just stay relaxed.

Do you talk to him while you are sitting there? Talk, low calm voice, "who's my good little boy, there's nothing to worry about, blah blah blah", just keep relaxed, talk to him.

Don't worry about being assertive, forget that - just keep on with what you are doing to make friends with him. Just don't give it up as hopeless yet. It can be very confusing and easy to get discouraged, but you can see what Monica has achieved.

Where's his cage? Is he around and about you all the time? Is he in a quiet spot? Traffic?

 

[MonicaMc]

The second day he was probably afraid of the bowl. You introduced something 'new' to him that was scary, hence him avoiding you.

It's ok if he doesn't come down to eat from you, keep trying. (as Strudel mentioned) Millet might be easier to use as you can hold it away from you so he doesn't have to be on or near your hand quite as much. The more he gets comfortable with you, the more you can progress.



(my posts are just to try and get people to think. think of other potential ways to train that don't involve force, flooding, pushing, or other potentially negative experiences for the bird)

 

[Puddlingo]

Thank you both!!!

Here's an update on Kiko:

I tried the same thing yesterday. I took his food bowl out of his cage for a few hours, and tried to feed him from my hand. He seemed more scared of it than the first time - he didn't really go near it, instead he kept licking his mirror for some reason. Sometimes when my hand was in the middle of the cage, he would move from his normal perch to another perch on the other side of the cage, and I don't know why ... it's not like he was getting any further or closer to my hand. I guess to "distract" himself from the temptation of getting the food out of my hand he plays with his mirrors and his cuttlebone. He's trying real hard to resist ... I hope that he'll finally give in soon! I'll keep on trying.