Steps up only if I have food

[Srivathsan]

Hello everyone.
I am a newbie to this forum. I have 10 month old male Alexandrine, started owning him since he was 6 months old. I have undergone many hard time with him to create trusty bond. Now to a certain degree he is comfortable with me, but hey he still is not letting me to touch or pet him (though Alex by it's own nature doesn't like that). To my surprise target training has been keeping him very comfortable and he is loving it and always look forward for that right from the first time.
Now my concern is, why he is stepping up only if I have his favourite food in my hand? This he has been practising for a couple of months now. But still he wouldn't step up on my command, rather only if I have food in my hand. He would just run away. Am I too hurrying up?
Another thing is he doesn't like scratches at all, again surprise for a parrot.
Share your constructive thoughts.
Thanks
Sri

 

[noodles123]

You are fine--you will want to fade out the food eventually, but for now, it is good that you know that works.
Some parrots take MUCH longer to get to that point.
Parrot time is slower than snail time....2 days to us= 2 hours to them...I swear....
You need to keep working on trust etc. It seems too early to fade the stimulus (treat).. Are you saying the same thing each time when you want him to step up, because it is possible that he doesn't know what you want unless he sees his treat in your hand...that may currently be his cue.

 

[Srivathsan]

You are fine--you will want to fade out the food eventually, but for now, it is good that you know that works.
Some parrots take MUCH longer to get to that point.
Parrot time is slower than snail time....2 days to us= 2 hours to them...I swear....
You need to keep working on trust etc. It seems too early to fade the stimulus (treat).. Are you saying the same thing each time when you want him to step up, because it is possible that he doesn't know what you want unless he sees his treat in your hand...that may currently be his cue.

Thanks for your response. I can wait patiently and repeat what I am doing at the moment. To answer your question, yes, each time he looks for a treat on my other hand whenever I command him to step up. Rarely he puts his one foot on my hand, then he realises that I am not having any treat and backs off. LOL.. very clever though. Anyway thanks again. Will post the updates as I progress.
Sri

 

[noodles123]

You are welcome! I am copying and pasting a post I made on foreward-chaining task-analysis---It works for birds and it could help you. Google it, and google "thinning reinforcement" but here you go:

"You need to figure out what motivates him. Birds and people only do the bare minimum required to get their needs met. If his current behavior is meeting his emotional/physical needs, then he has no reason to go outside of his comfort zone. All behavior serves a purpose. For example, lets say you are hungry...if you could snap your fingers and get a chocolate cake, then why would you go through the trouble of making your own....You wouldn't unless you enjoyed baking. So....in your bird's case, you need to figure out what motivates him so that you can use that to shape his behavior.

He apparently does not want to be touched. The backing away etc is a form of escape behavior (he does it because this behavior allows him to escape from something he finds unpleasant or fears). Right now, the act of stepping up offers no pay-off to him and without incentive (intrinsic or extrinsic) he isn't going to do it. Before you read the next part of this, know that building trust and pairing your hands with positive consequences is the ultimate goal. You don't want to push him too hard or too fast, or you can damage trust and trust takes TIME. SO, remember that what I am about to say must take place over a long span of time, in conjunction with trust-building activities.

I am a big believer in ABA (for birds and humans)- it stands for Applied Behavior Analysis and it asserts (As I have stated) that all behaviors have a function or purpose. Most behavior falls into 1 of 4 categories:

1.Escape (to get away from someone, something, a task or a situation)
2.Tangibles (to get a preferred object/item)
3.Sensory (exp- eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, scratching when itchy)
4.Attention (good or bad----to get some form of attention from someone or everyone-- eye contact, vocalization, physical reaction etc)

When changing behavior, the idea is to find a more socially acceptable replacement behavior that meets the same function. So, if a bird bites to escape, you want to find a way to allow them to "escape" without biting.

In your case, it is a bit trickier, because although your bird is seeking escape, some of that escape may be motivated by fear, and fear is a weird thing because it is also sensory. It sounds like you have been working on building trust already and he trusts you enough to do some things, but not all things....

He obviously likes to get out of his cage (also a form of escape), so you might consider doing a forward chaining task analysis (with the reward of being let out).
List all of things you want him to do in order to step up (total task):
1. Attend to your presence
2. Respond to a command (e.g., "come here")
3. Walk towards a target within his cage (ultimately, your hand)
4. Respond to another command (e.g., "step up")
5. Step onto your hand
6. Stay on your hand when you move it out of the cage
7. Stay on your hand when you move it anywhere

This whole chain of events lists the breakdown of the whole task (stepping up).
The less competent he is at performing each step individually, the more you will have to break it down and the more you will have to provide rewards.
In the teaching phase, you want to start with the first step. Basically, walk over, say, "come here" and place your hand (or a stick in the location you want him to go). If he even takes a single step towards the target, reward (let him out) ***see my note below (final paragraph) on adding food rewards in addition to letting him out***. If he moves away, do not reward. You only want to reward progress. One he is consistently taking 1-2 steps toward stepping toward your hand, you will want to have him move even closer (3-4 steps toward your hand) before providing the reward. When I say consistently, I mean that he shows the correct response across multiple trials --hours apart (and usually, over multiple days).

You don't want to reward for skills you know he has already mastered..For instance, if you say, "come here" and 3 days in a row, your bird walks all the way over to your hand (possible mastery), you would not reward if on the 4th day he only takes 2 steps toward your hand. Instead, you would take a break/walk away and then return, restarting the task with your initial command of, "come here"--only rewarding if he walks all the way over to your hand (as he has already shown he can do this).

Once your bird is consistently walking over to your hand, you want to add the next step----which is stepping up. You will always begin the task at the start of the chain, but, over time (as step mastery is achieved) the reward will be held off until he shows obvious progress toward the next step in the chain....SO...he walks over every time you say, "come here" (steps 1-3) but then he climbs away. No reward, as he has shown no additional progress and he already mastered that first part. Try again---"come here", he walks over, then maybe he taps your hand with one foot---REWARD IMMEDIATELY for this action, as it is progress toward your ultimate goal. From that point forward, in order to get rewarded, he must walk over when you say "come here" and touch your hand (even slightly).

When he shows he can do that repeatedly---over multiple trials, you will add the next element----maybe, putting his whole foot on your hand. Again, "come here"; he walks over; he brushes your hand with his beak (hold off on reward)..you want forward progress....this continues until you have a bird that has memorized the entire chain. Once he has the whole chain down and has mastered all steps, he will be getting his reward when you physically take him out of the cage with your hand.

Does that sort of make sense?
Look up "forward chaining" task analysis...
***Also---even though he is working for escape, you can incorporate additional rewards into the system. SO, lets say he has a favorite treat....You can use that to motivate him to take those initial steps toward your hand...Hold the treat in one hand and use your other hand as the target. If you hold the treat off to the side (closer to the target) and he steps towards the treat, he is also technically stepping toward your hand, which means you would reward (by giving him the treat if he wants it, and/or letting him out)---this would be if you were just working on mastering the first 3 steps of the total task. Eventually, you would move the treat closer and closer to the target (your other hand) and hold off on giving it to him (and/or letting him out) until he gradually moved closer and closer to the target."

 

[Sunnyclover]

Have him step up multiple times before giving him the treat. He should become more accustom to it after a few days. Have him step up then step into your shoulder next...then give him the treat. All of this applies only if he isn't biting you a lot. You didn't mention it so I'm assuming he doesn't bite.

 

[Srivathsan]

You are welcome! I am copying and pasting a post I made on foreward-chaining task-analysis---It works for birds and it could help you. Google it, and google "thinning reinforcement" but here you go:

"You need to figure out what motivates him. Birds and people only do the bare minimum required to get their needs met. If his current behavior is meeting his emotional/physical needs, then he has no reason to go outside of his comfort zone. All behavior serves a purpose. For example, lets say you are hungry...if you could snap your fingers and get a chocolate cake, then why would you go through the trouble of making your own....You wouldn't unless you enjoyed baking. So....in your bird's case, you need to figure out what motivates him so that you can use that to shape his behavior.

He apparently does not want to be touched. The backing away etc is a form of escape behavior (he does it because this behavior allows him to escape from something he finds unpleasant or fears). Right now, the act of stepping up offers no pay-off to him and without incentive (intrinsic or extrinsic) he isn't going to do it. Before you read the next part of this, know that building trust and pairing your hands with positive consequences is the ultimate goal. You don't want to push him too hard or too fast, or you can damage trust and trust takes TIME. SO, remember that what I am about to say must take place over a long span of time, in conjunction with trust-building activities.

I am a big believer in ABA (for birds and humans)- it stands for Applied Behavior Analysis and it asserts (As I have stated) that all behaviors have a function or purpose. Most behavior falls into 1 of 4 categories:

1.Escape (to get away from someone, something, a task or a situation)
2.Tangibles (to get a preferred object/item)
3.Sensory (exp- eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, scratching when itchy)
4.Attention (good or bad----to get some form of attention from someone or everyone-- eye contact, vocalization, physical reaction etc)

When changing behavior, the idea is to find a more socially acceptable replacement behavior that meets the same function. So, if a bird bites to escape, you want to find a way to allow them to "escape" without biting.

In your case, it is a bit trickier, because although your bird is seeking escape, some of that escape may be motivated by fear, and fear is a weird thing because it is also sensory. It sounds like you have been working on building trust already and he trusts you enough to do some things, but not all things....

He obviously likes to get out of his cage (also a form of escape), so you might consider doing a forward chaining task analysis (with the reward of being let out).
List all of things you want him to do in order to step up (total task):
1. Attend to your presence
2. Respond to a command (e.g., "come here")
3. Walk towards a target within his cage (ultimately, your hand)
4. Respond to another command (e.g., "step up")
5. Step onto your hand
6. Stay on your hand when you move it out of the cage
7. Stay on your hand when you move it anywhere

This whole chain of events lists the breakdown of the whole task (stepping up).
The less competent he is at performing each step individually, the more you will have to break it down and the more you will have to provide rewards.
In the teaching phase, you want to start with the first step. Basically, walk over, say, "come here" and place your hand (or a stick in the location you want him to go). If he even takes a single step towards the target, reward (let him out) ***see my note below (final paragraph) on adding food rewards in addition to letting him out***. If he moves away, do not reward. You only want to reward progress. One he is consistently taking 1-2 steps toward stepping toward your hand, you will want to have him move even closer (3-4 steps toward your hand) before providing the reward. When I say consistently, I mean that he shows the correct response across multiple trials --hours apart (and usually, over multiple days).

You don't want to reward for skills you know he has already mastered..For instance, if you say, "come here" and 3 days in a row, your bird walks all the way over to your hand (possible mastery), you would not reward if on the 4th day he only takes 2 steps toward your hand. Instead, you would take a break/walk away and then return, restarting the task with your initial command of, "come here"--only rewarding if he walks all the way over to your hand (as he has already shown he can do this).

Once your bird is consistently walking over to your hand, you want to add the next step----which is stepping up. You will always begin the task at the start of the chain, but, over time (as step mastery is achieved) the reward will be held off until he shows obvious progress toward the next step in the chain....SO...he walks over every time you say, "come here" (steps 1-3) but then he climbs away. No reward, as he has shown no additional progress and he already mastered that first part. Try again---"come here", he walks over, then maybe he taps your hand with one foot---REWARD IMMEDIATELY for this action, as it is progress toward your ultimate goal. From that point forward, in order to get rewarded, he must walk over when you say "come here" and touch your hand (even slightly).

When he shows he can do that repeatedly---over multiple trials, you will add the next element----maybe, putting his whole foot on your hand. Again, "come here"; he walks over; he brushes your hand with his beak (hold off on reward)..you want forward progress....this continues until you have a bird that has memorized the entire chain. Once he has the whole chain down and has mastered all steps, he will be getting his reward when you physically take him out of the cage with your hand.

Does that sort of make sense?
Look up "forward chaining" task analysis...
***Also---even though he is working for escape, you can incorporate additional rewards into the system. SO, lets say he has a favorite treat....You can use that to motivate him to take those initial steps toward your hand...Hold the treat in one hand and use your other hand as the target. If you hold the treat off to the side (closer to the target) and he steps towards the treat, he is also technically stepping toward your hand, which means you would reward (by giving him the treat if he wants it, and/or letting him out)---this would be if you were just working on mastering the first 3 steps of the total task. Eventually, you would move the treat closer and closer to the target (your other hand) and hold off on giving it to him (and/or letting him out) until he gradually moved closer and closer to the target."

Wow. Thanks again. That was very informative.
Sri

 

[Srivathsan]

Have him step up multiple times before giving him the treat. He should become more accustom to it after a few days. Have him step up then step into your shoulder next...then give him the treat. All of this applies only if he isn't biting you a lot. You didn't mention it so I'm assuming he doesn't bite.

Yeah, I haven't specifically mentioned that he does bite. But yes, he does bite really really hard out of full aggression, I bled many times. But for the past few weeks, I did noticed some reduction in that behaviour, after I started the target training. But still I am personally not fully confident on having him on my shoulders, for 2 reasons, one is anytime he can become cranky as with any one, and second reason is to avoid height dominance as he is still young.
Thanks again for your advise. I will keep this in mind as I progress.
Sri

 

[noodles123]

Avoid shoulders until you are VERY confident in your relationship. That having been said, my 10 year-old Umbrella Cockatoo (who is usually very nice) bit me a ton this morning (she was angry I took a trip without her). Anyway, she is a bird I let on my shoulder 95% of the time, but today, I had to really weigh the benefits lol. By this evening , I was letting her up again, but for at least 8 hours after she bit me hard, I had to contemplate---again, this is a bird I ALREADY trust A TON!!!!!!!!!!! This is not typical for her, or there is no way I would let her make me so vulnerable.


http://www.parrotforums.com/cockatoos/77440-bite-pics-welcome-home-mom.html

 

[Sunnyclover]

Yeah so definitely don't do the shoulder part of the plan if your bird is biting. Just try having your bird step of like 2 times then treat...3 times ...4 times ect. Perhaps place him on an arm that's heavily sleeved and walk around for a minute...put back in cage...give a treat...step up again do the same thing. It's about showing your bird only positive things happen when he's with you. He needs to think YOU=GOOD. Once he believes most or all interaction with you is positive he'll come around eventually!

 

[Srivathsan]

Avoid shoulders until you are VERY confident in your relationship. That having been said, my 10 year-old Umbrella Cockatoo (who is usually very nice) bit me a ton this morning (she was angry I took a trip without her). Anyway, she is a bird I let on my shoulder 95% of the time, but today, I had to really weigh the benefits lol. By this evening , I was letting her up again, but for at least 8 hours after she bit me hard, I had to contemplate---again, this is a bird I ALREADY trust A TON!!!!!!!!!!! This is not typical for her, or there is no way I would let her make me so vulnerable.


http://www.parrotforums.com/cockatoos/77440-bite-pics-welcome-home-mom.html

Oops. Hard to hear that, with a decade old relationship. Nothing offensive, but the true fact is they are not humans, though they can outsmart us, but still they have to rely on their beak for almost everything including exploring, surface checking, balancing, and list goes on, last but not least as a defensive and attacking tool. From your explanation I don't see that as intentional, may be expressing their anger. None can promise that this would never happen again, but if it does happens again in rare occasions, nothing to panic, that's their nature.
Good luck.
Cheers
Sri

 

[Srivathsan]

Yeah so definitely do that do the shoulder part of the plan if your bird is biting. Just try having your bird step of like 2 times then treat...3 times ...4 times ect. Perhaps place him on an arm that's heavily sleeved and walk around for a minute...put back in cage...give a treat...step up again do the same thing. It's about showing your bird only positive things happen when he's with you. He needs to think YOU=GOOD. Once he believes most or all interaction with you is positive he'll come around eventually!

Yeah. I agree with that.
Sri

 

[Sunnyclover]

I edited my post sorry. I was saying "Don't do the shoulder plan if your bird is biting." Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Srivathsan]

I edited my post sorry. I was saying "Don't do the shoulder plan if your bird is biting." Sorry for the confusion.

No worries. I got that anyway at the first place.
Cheers
Sri

 

[MonicaMc]

Birds are not dominant creatures. Putting them on your shoulder wont make them "dominant". That said, the shoulder can be viewed as a fun and safe place to be, so birds may not want to step up from your shoulder.


If your bird is only putting one foot on your hand to step up, then back off, then reward for that behavior. Eventually, you can mold it into a full step up.


It's honestly not a good idea to completely stop the treats. You can phase them out, to a degree, but think about it this way... if you worked a job that paid well and then all of a sudden, they didn't pay, would you want to continue working there? You would if they continued to pay you, even if it went from weekly to bi-weekly or monthly payments.