Splayed legs in parakeet hatchlings...

[EllenD]

Look, I apologize for getting upset with you, but you're still not getting the point at all, and you've acted from the start defensively and like you know exactly what you're doing, and you're not at all open to advice and words of warning. So that's where myself and others have been coming from. Sometimes typing isn't the best way to communicate and I'll take responsibility for my anger towards you, all I ask is that you take responsibility for your pets and actually listen to what we're telling you, rather than going immediately on the defensive and attacking me and others back when we've been trying to make a point to you that you're ignoring...

I understand completely that you aren't a bird breeder, and that you did not purposely breed them. I never said a word about that. The point that I'm trying to make to you, and I really hope you listen and take this to heart, is that being an experienced bird owner and working at a pet shop in no-way prepares you to hand-raise/feed baby birds. And where you are making a huge mistake is that you have admitted to allowing your birds to breed and let the eggs hatch instead of removing them and freezing them in the past and now once again, yet you have taken absolutely zero precautions that you need to take from the moment you make the decision to allow those babies to hatch. You're absolutely just "winging it" and assuming that everything will be just fine, the first time was just what you assumed I guess, and this time you're assuming this based on the fact that everything went fine the first time.

The moment that you made the decision to allow baby birds to hatch and not freeze the eggs, you should have taken all the necessary precautions and bought the necessary things that you need if your parent birds stop feeding the babies or kick them out of the nest box, or if they start to hurt them. Instead of doing that either time you bred them and when someone with experience gave you an actual list of things that you need to have on hand at the bare minimum, you just wrote me off, wrote what I said off, and told me that all of things I told you that you needed were just "EXTRA STUFF" that you didn't need the first time you bred them...

Well you got lucky the first time and nothing went wrong. This time you didn't even provide the babies/eggs a proper nest box, which was on my list, or the bedding for inside it, also on my list, and now you have a physically disabled baby. And that's minimal compared to what trouble you'll be in if the parents stop feeding them...How can you possibly call Baby Bird Hand-Feeding Formula, a hand-feeding syringe, a thermometer for the formula and one for the brooder, and some kind of brooder set-up "EXTRA STUFF THAT I DON'T NEED"? That's where I lost my ****, and I'm sorry for that, I really am.

Please, I was telling you that you need these things ASAP and must have them on-hand from the minute you decide to let your birds breed because #1) It's true, and #2) To try to educate you and to save you absolute heartbreak and better yet the frustration of not knowing what to do when your 16 and 18 day old chicks start starving to death because the parents stop feeding them, or when you attempt to feed them something they can't eat, or with the wrong tools, or you keep them at too cool an ambient temperature and they die because of your irresponsibility. I don't want you or anyone else to go through that.

And just to clarify, the first time your birds bred it was an accident. This time it is not an accident, you allowed it to happen again, and again you were not prepared at all. That's where I'm coming from. You work at a pet shop, yet you failed to buy a nest box, bedding, or baby hand-feeding formula and a syringe, and you tell me they are "extra stuff you don't need". Do you see why that's upsetting? And you didn't tell anyone that you had a vet appointment for that baby with the splayed legs, you simply asked if there was anything you needed to know that could go wrong before you went ahead and splinted the baby's legs yourself after watching a YouTube video...do you understand why that is REALLY upsetting? I hope you do now. I will truly apologize and say I'm so very sorry for the way I spoke to you or wrote my words out of anger, but I will not every apologize for the content of what I said, as every word was true.

And if your parent birds stop feeding them or kick them out, or if they start to try to hurt them, we'll all be here to once again list all the things you'll need to go buy immediately to start housing them and feeding them, and I'll be happy to type out step by step, detailed instructions on how to mix your formula, heat it to the proper temperature and keep it there, how to actually feed it to the babies, how to house them at the right temperature, and what supplements you need to add to the formula if and when their crops stop emptying, become sour, etc. I hope none of these things happen to you or your babies, but they are very common things to have happen when allowing babies to be parent-raised, they happen to skilled, experienced breeders every day, and you do need to take responsibility for your pets, I'll repeat that to you again so maybe you'll understand why you're not doing so.

None of this is meant to upset you or insult you, it's meant to educate and help you. And once again I apologize for my anger, but people who allow this to happen with their pet birds and who are not in any way prepared to take-over for the parent birds over and over and over again really upset me and a lot of others who have bred babies purposely, who bust our butts doing so, who are completely prepared, educated, trained, etc., and who still have tragedies happen regardless.

 

[Terry57]

Hey Grace, you PM'D me and I tried to reply to you earlier on here because I'm too new to respond to PM's.

Anyway, you were the only one who was helpful to me on this forum. And for that I thank you very much.

However, because I'm unaware of how to go about splinting and I don't want to harm them further, I think I'm just going to wait until I can get to the vet. I successfully splinted the less-bad-off chick, but as soon as I put her down in her cage she kicked it off. I think the vet is my best bet.

On the bright side, I made these little pillows out of papertowel and cotton balls last night and put them in the cage around the edges, the babies are using them to push against and they're using their knee joints on the bad feet to do so. So as long as they stay by the makeshift pillows, their legs aren't extended straight out to the side and their using their joints. .

I'm most worried about the leg bones/joints forming in a locked position sooner than I can get them to the vet, so to see them using their knee joints and bad legs is a good sign I think...

First and foremost, welcome to the forums! We exist for the benefit of our birds and strive to make interacting an enjoyable experience!

Life happens, and unforeseen events occur. The body of knowledge here is vast, yet we all have value and something to contribute. Advice delivered rudely is problematic regardless of good intent.

I concur with the ultimate decision to seek vet care, preferable a certified avian practice.

New members cannot use the PM system until 20 posts are realized. However, any moderator can pass messages between parties until the limit is reached, or outside communication is established. Thanks, Grace, for reaching out!!

Well said, Scott! I want to add my thanks to Grace as well for trying to help...that's what this forum is all about.

 

[gracebowen]

Budgiegirl38 please don't leave the forum. I read a few other helpful posts. I'm glad they are going to the vet. Please let us know how it goes.
Please don't leave the forum.

 

[gracebowen]

I don't understand advocating killing babies till a certain age then the same person who said you should have killed it now says you have to do everything possible to keep it alive.

Not directed specifically at Ellen. A few people here have this position regarding breeding. If the egg is fertile and you addle it you are killing a chick and it probably feels pain. Same as if you freeze it

 

[Scott]

Look, I apologize for getting upset with you, but you're still not getting the point at all, and you've acted from the start defensively and like you know exactly what you're doing, and you're not at all open to advice and words of warning. So that's where myself and others have been coming from. Sometimes typing isn't the best way to communicate and I'll take responsibility for my anger towards you, all I ask is that you take responsibility for your pets and actually listen to what we're telling you, rather than going immediately on the defensive and attacking me and others back when we've been trying to make a point to you that you're ignoring...

I understand completely that you aren't a bird breeder, and that you did not purposely breed them. I never said a word about that. The point that I'm trying to make to you, and I really hope you listen and take this to heart, is that being an experienced bird owner and working at a pet shop in no-way prepares you to hand-raise/feed baby birds. And where you are making a huge mistake is that you have admitted to allowing your birds to breed and let the eggs hatch instead of removing them and freezing them in the past and now once again, yet you have taken absolutely zero precautions that you need to take from the moment you make the decision to allow those babies to hatch. You're absolutely just "winging it" and assuming that everything will be just fine, the first time was just what you assumed I guess, and this time you're assuming this based on the fact that everything went fine the first time.

The moment that you made the decision to allow baby birds to hatch and not freeze the eggs, you should have taken all the necessary precautions and bought the necessary things that you need if your parent birds stop feeding the babies or kick them out of the nest box, or if they start to hurt them. Instead of doing that either time you bred them and when someone with experience gave you an actual list of things that you need to have on hand at the bare minimum, you just wrote me off, wrote what I said off, and told me that all of things I told you that you needed were just "EXTRA STUFF" that you didn't need the first time you bred them...

Well you got lucky the first time and nothing went wrong. This time you didn't even provide the babies/eggs a proper nest box, which was on my list, or the bedding for inside it, also on my list, and now you have a physically disabled baby. And that's minimal compared to what trouble you'll be in if the parents stop feeding them...How can you possibly call Baby Bird Hand-Feeding Formula, a hand-feeding syringe, a thermometer for the formula and one for the brooder, and some kind of brooder set-up "EXTRA STUFF THAT I DON'T NEED"? That's where I lost my ****, and I'm sorry for that, I really am.

Please, I was telling you that you need these things ASAP and must have them on-hand from the minute you decide to let your birds breed because #1) It's true, and #2) To try to educate you and to save you absolute heartbreak and better yet the frustration of not knowing what to do when your 16 and 18 day old chicks start starving to death because the parents stop feeding them, or when you attempt to feed them something they can't eat, or with the wrong tools, or you keep them at too cool an ambient temperature and they die because of your irresponsibility. I don't want you or anyone else to go through that.

And just to clarify, the first time your birds bred it was an accident. This time it is not an accident, you allowed it to happen again, and again you were not prepared at all. That's where I'm coming from. You work at a pet shop, yet you failed to buy a nest box, bedding, or baby hand-feeding formula and a syringe, and you tell me they are "extra stuff you don't need". Do you see why that's upsetting? And you didn't tell anyone that you had a vet appointment for that baby with the splayed legs, you simply asked if there was anything you needed to know that could go wrong before you went ahead and splinted the baby's legs yourself after watching a YouTube video...do you understand why that is REALLY upsetting? I hope you do now. I will truly apologize and say I'm so very sorry for the way I spoke to you or wrote my words out of anger, but I will not every apologize for the content of what I said, as every word was true.

And if your parent birds stop feeding them or kick them out, or if they start to try to hurt them, we'll all be here to once again list all the things you'll need to go buy immediately to start housing them and feeding them, and I'll be happy to type out step by step, detailed instructions on how to mix your formula, heat it to the proper temperature and keep it there, how to actually feed it to the babies, how to house them at the right temperature, and what supplements you need to add to the formula if and when their crops stop emptying, become sour, etc. I hope none of these things happen to you or your babies, but they are very common things to have happen when allowing babies to be parent-raised, they happen to skilled, experienced breeders every day, and you do need to take responsibility for your pets, I'll repeat that to you again so maybe you'll understand why you're not doing so.

None of this is meant to upset you or insult you, it's meant to educate and help you. And once again I apologize for my anger, but people who allow this to happen with their pet birds and who are not in any way prepared to take-over for the parent birds over and over and over again really upset me and a lot of others who have bred babies purposely, who bust our butts doing so, who are completely prepared, educated, trained, etc., and who still have tragedies happen regardless.

I completely understand your good intent and know it comes from a position of deep love and passion for birds. Yet the six paragraphs between your first and last seem a refrain from posts 8 and 15. When a new member feels badgered, alienated and considers leaving, we all lose, particularly the young birds as subject of this thread.

 

[EllenD]

No, please do not leave the forum because myself or other got angry and had a disagreement with you, it happens, we're all human beings that make mistakes, myself probably more than anyone.

I hope that if you do run-into issues where you might have to pull the chicks and start hand-feeding them that you'll ask for detailed help, because it's a serious situation that is not easy for the most-seasoned breeders, let alone a person who has never done it before. I don't want anyone to have to go through the guilt of aspirating a baby and having it die instantly in your hand, it happened to me one time in 20 years and it still breaks my heart when I think about it.

I also hope that if your birds breed again in the future and lay fertile eggs, that you'll come back here immediately to ask all of the questions about what your options with the eggs are, how to properly house them if you do decide to let them hatch, and what supplies you need to buy and keep on-hand just in-case you need to take over feeding the babies, because again, it's not something that you can just figure out and wing-it based on things you read on the internet, it requires step-by-step instructions and support, which we can all provide here to you...

I'm not perfect, that should be obvious, I'm human and very passionate about all animals, most of all my birds and my Bearded Dragons, and I probably make more mistakes than anyone. That being said, I also am willing to admit when I'm out of line, get fired-up, and speak out of anger without realizing it. So I am sorry, but don't let our little disagreement and argument keep you from getting the proper help you need for your birds, as in addition to all the other wonderful, experienced, educated bird owners and breeders on this forum, I too have 32 years of experience owning parrots, 20 years of breeding and hand-raising experience, and a Master's degree in Animal Health Science. So regardless of my short fuse, I am capable of providing you with any help you might need, and am happy to do so.

So bottom line is that I apologize for speaking to you in an angry way, but don't let that interfere with you getting help for your birds or coming back to the forum.

 

[itzjbean]

I don't understand advocating killing babies till a certain age then the same person who said you should have killed it now says you have to do everything possible to keep it alive.

Not directed specifically at Ellen. A few people here have this position regarding breeding. If the egg is fertile and you addle it you are killing a chick and it probably feels pain. Same as if you freeze it

No, it is not in fact a chick yet and does not feel pain. That would require a nervous system, and at the point you shake/freeze/dispose of eggs, they will have not even begun forming into an embryo yet. So letting birds breed and hatch babies without proper experience of what to do when things go wrong (like in this thread) is what we're trying to prevent from happening in the future.There is so much heartbreak when breeding. All life is precious so that is why we try to save the babies already born, but prevent those inexperienced with emergencies to not breed. It just isn't safe or fair to the birds.

 

[gracebowen]

An egg is fertilized before it is laid. Life begins at fertilization. An egg is a life.

A reputable breeder here on this forum has said that addling an egg is abortion.

 

[gracebowen]

The first sentence is me not what the breeder said.

www.sites.ext.vt.edu/virtualfarm/poultry/poultry_development.html

The development of the chick begins in the single cell formed by the union of two parental cells, egg and sperm, in the process known as fertilization. In birds, fertilization occurs about 24 hours before the egg is laid.

http://extension.msstate.edu/content/stages-chick-embryo-development

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

 

[EllenD]

An egg is fertilized before it is laid. Life begins at fertilization. An egg is a life.

A reputable breeder here on this forum has said that addling an egg is abortion.

Okay, this is getting into a personal belief system, or even a religious belief, and there are many differing opinions on this topic, none are right or wrong, they are just our own, individual opinions. Getting into a discussion about whether or not abortion is a good thing is not productive.

I don't personally believe that freezing an egg that you've just identified as being fertile (evident simply by the development of a single vein inside the egg, nothing else) is killing a baby bird, but I'm also pro-choice for the rights of humans to have an abortion, doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, it's just my opinion.

As already stated, allowing baby birds to fully develop and hatch when you have no hand-raising or hand-feeding experience, nor are you prepared to take-over for the parents if they stop feeding or hurt the chicks, in my opinion and the opinion of a lot of other experienced bird breeders is irresponsible and much, much crueler to a fully developed, hatched, breathing chick than it is to freeze an egg that has only veins developed. Until you accidentally aspirate a chick and have it die instantly in your hands you might not understand this, but I have, and I do. And I was a very experienced breeder and hand-feeder and it happened, so imagine how easily tragedy can strike someone who doesn't know what they're doing. That's what we are trying to keep from happening, for the sake of both the chicks and the owners....

Either way, getting into an abortion discussion is never productive, as we all have our own beliefs...and this is what is wonderful about this country, we are all allowed to have our own opinions and beliefs on such topics.

 

[itzjbean]

An egg is fertilized before it is laid. Life begins at fertilization. An egg is a life.

A reputable breeder here on this forum has said that addling an egg is abortion.

A fertilized bird egg is a life in the sense that there are a few cells dividing in the beginning. Many people have differing opinions on when 'life' truly starts. Maybe it is when there is a capacity to feel pain. But there is no heartbeat. There is no neurological system. Therefore, it is not cruel in my eyes to stop a fertilized egg from developing further if there is risk to the future chick because of inexperience.

I do not see this as an 'abortion'. It is a human term and it happens internally. Do you eat chicken eggs? Some eggs end up fertilized but are chilled to keep fresh and from developing into embryos for human consumption. With your logic, chicken farmers actively 'abort' chicks every day by chilling them to death. Yet the practice still continues.

In my opinion, it's not harmful to stop a fertilized egg from developing because it is not a chick yet, especially if the breeder is inexperienced and cannot give care in an emergency. These chicks are in danger of being permanently disabled now because of inexperience. If the eggs were to have been removed or destroyed, they would not have to suffer through splayed legs as they are now.

 

[gracebowen]

A link specifically about parrots

Winged Wisdom Pet Bird Magazine - The Incredible Bird Egg- Pet Birds

Ferilization occurs in the funnel portion of the oviduct. The first cell division occurs approximately 5 hours after ovulation and continues as the yolk travels down the oviduct.

Reproductive Tract

The egg membranes (the amnion, chorion, and allantois) develop from the embryo. An outgrowth of the embryo's digestive system surrounds the yolk, forming the yolk sac. The amnion and chorion develop as folds of the body wall and surround the embryo. The amnion becomes a fluid filled sac in which the embryo grows. The allantois, an extension of the embryo's digestive tract, fuses with the chorion forming the chorioallantoic membrane. This membrane contains many blood vessels allowing oxygen and carbon dioxide to be exchanged through the shell.

The magnum is the longest and most coiled portion of the hen's oviduct. Many secretory glands are present which secrete albumen around the ovum. Albumen contributes to the aqueous environment around the embryo, has antibacterial properties and is a source of nutrition for the embryo. The developing egg remains in the magnum for 3 hours.

 

[Terry57]

An egg is fertilized before it is laid. Life begins at fertilization. An egg is a life.

A reputable breeder here on this forum has said that addling an egg is abortion.

A fertilized bird egg is a life in the sense that there are a few cells dividing in the beginning. Many people have differing opinions on when 'life' truly starts. Maybe it is when there is a capacity to feel pain. But there is no heartbeat. There is no neurological system. Therefore, it is not cruel in my eyes to stop a fertilized egg from developing further if there is risk to the future chick because of inexperience.

I do not see this as an 'abortion'. It is a human term and it happens internally. Do you eat chicken eggs? Some eggs end up fertilized but are chilled to keep fresh and from developing into embryos for human consumption. With your logic, chicken farmers actively 'abort' chicks every day by chilling them to death. Yet the practice still continues.

In my opinion, it's not harmful to stop a fertilized egg from developing because it is not a chick yet, especially if the breeder is inexperienced and cannot give care in an emergency. These chicks are in danger of being permanently disabled now because of inexperience. If the eggs were to have been removed or destroyed, they would not have to suffer through splayed legs as they are now.

Just to be clear, a splay legged bird can also have a great quality of life. I have taken in several.

In your previous post you mentioned shaking the eggs, which is not a fool proof method at all. I know someone who did this and the babies were born, but with major neurological issues.

it is time to bring this thread back to the topic at hand, and any further posts will be deleted that are not on topic.

 

[Anansi]

Okay, all. Let's endeavor to stay on topic, here. The exact point at which lives begins has been a hotly debated topic for generations, so I doubt any resolution will be reached in this thread. Nor should it, as splayed legs is the topic at hand.

I ask that we all focus on bringing this thread solidly back to its original intent, namely helping the OP with the splayed legs issue. Thanks to all for understanding.

EDIT: Sorry, Terry. Posted before seeing yours.

 

[gracebowen]

This is the baby tiel I mentioned earlier

http://www.parrotforums.com/breeding-raising-parrots/61948-splayed-leg-fixed.html

 

[GaleriaGila]

What my fellow Moderastor said (and so well)...

And thanks to our members who practice such wonderful temperance and dedication to those who reach out to our Community.

 

[Budgiegirl38]

It seems as though I've caused a ruckus. I'm sorry for that....I felt quite frustrated is all.
Watching my babies waddle around the bottom of the cage when I feel like I can help them is anxiety inducing for me. But I don't want to hurt them further.

Ellen, I'm sorry for being defensive, I was this way because I felt that you had accused me of not caring for my adult birds properly and that's not the case, they're not in the absolute best care, but they're not neglected by any means.

I understand where you're coming from as an experienced breeder though. To have someone inexperienced hell bent on doing something that you well know could be detrimental to a baby bird is probably very frustrating...especially considering you've been through worse case scenarios. I just felt in a pickle and criticized more than helped BUT....

I am a defensive person in nature, and that probably affected how I interpreted your text to begin with. So I'm sorry for that, and I'm thankful to you for offering your knowledge in the event that I need to take over caring for the chicks. I'll take heed from this thread, I personally hate repeating myself...and if I have any other question's I'll post them.

I didn't mean to cause a tizzy, and I'm sorry for being rude. I hope you (Ellen) didn't feel as though I was disregarding what you told me as well. I respect you as an experienced breeder and was not trying to invalidate your expertise. As I understand (now) the information regarding hand rearing is necessary, last night all I could think about was splinting/helping the birds...and hand rearing wasn't on the priority list. But again, I wasn't trying to disregard the information, because it is important and I didn't realize it until you so passionately told me so.

In the future, I'll separate the sexes so the 'accident' doesn't happen again. I'm not a breeder and by no means intend to be. I just want happy/healthy parakeets.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Budgiegirl... personally, you're the kind of newby I'm HERE for... you're genuine, you reach out, you listen. And as a result of interactions with our wonderful Community, birds are happier and healthier. Thank you for being here.

 

[MonicaMc]

Budgiegirl - being defensive is a good thing! In a way... it shows that you care! Now, it's up to you to figure out what to do with all this information.

I hope you are able to get their legs splinted and you give us picture updates on how they are growing!

 

[LordTriggs]

for now you've chosen what I would choose, the next available vet appointment. I would put some more bedding down if they're still in the nest to help alleviate any pressure on them but outside of that I find it best to let the pro's do their thing, like you said the last thing you want is to hurt anyone by accident

in the future yeah I would keep the genders in separate cages next to each other (so they can still be friends) and just have a plan for the future if they do still manage to get some eggs going. A plan you have that' not needed is better than a needed plan you don't have