Splayed legs in parakeet hatchlings...

[Budgiegirl38]

Hi all, I have 4 parakeets. 2 male and 2 female, they have paired off. The one pair had laid eggs in their bathtub. I first separated the pairs (so that my breeding pair had privacy), but otherwise I left them alone to do their thing. Didn't add bedding or gravel to the bottom of the bathtub out of fear Maya (the female) would abandon the nest. My mistake.

Now, out of 4 eggs, we have 2 hatchlings. They hatched on the 26th and 28th of April. So they're about 16-18 days old, Maya is a first time hen.....and they each have a splayed leg, At least that's what I'm thinking.

On both babies, one leg can sit underneath them just fine, but the second leg juts straight out to the side, it looks like there is a lot of adverse pressure on their knee joints on that leg...I took the initiative to get them out of the bathtub. They're now in the bottom of the cage where I have paper towel layers as a floor with shredded paper bedding.

I've done some research, and went out last night to buy flat make-up sponges to attempt to make splints for them. But I don't have another, willing participant to help me get the splints on them and I don't want to hurt them doing it myself.

I'm willing to take them to an avian vet but...I'm not sure what to doo...In my opinion, they're not as bad off as some of the other cases I've seen reversed while researching, can it remedy itself if they start using different muscles to get around? I.E, can the condition fix itself now that I've moved them into an area where they can move freely and with grip? and out of a 4in by 2in bathtub.....

Please, someone give me some kind of advice...anything would be greatly appreciated as I feel a great pressure to do SOMETHING for them. I feel that if I just let it go, they'll have the problem for the rest of their lives and it's technically my fault...

 

[Budgiegirl38]

Just an addition regarding my ignorance....

I initially thought I had 3 females and 1 male. Not realizing that albino birds have differing pigmentation in their cere bec, well, they're albino (duh)....I have 2 greens, 1 blue, and 1 white. well, the white one was a male in disguise. He is the father (Scarleau: previously scarlet) to Maya's 2 hatchlings.

SO, I didn't purposely buy 2 pairs...and because of this mix up...I wasn't able to catch the breeding behavior. I thought Scarleau was just a very playful female and Maya was being tolerant towards 'her'. I didn't realize that they were a pair because I thought they were 2 females...Maya had already laid the eggs before I realized that scarleau was the father. Which is why there was no breeding box...Had I realized sooner, I would've prepared for them.

 

[gracebowen]

They have to be splinted. I had to splint a cockatiel once. She was fine.

Find help, gently do it yourself or go to a vet. It needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

[itzjbean]

My question to you is, why didn't you just take the eggs out after they were laid? Do you know how old all your budgies are? Do you know that they are not related (letting sibling birds mate can and will cause genetic defects). If you don't know for sure, then you should NOT be breeding them.

As you have already realized, breeding birds is a complicated process. No bedding underneath the babies likely is contributing to their splayed legs. They do better in a nestbox that only the pair will enter and exit, bedding, and the babies should be weighed daily to make sure they are gaining weight. I hope the parents feed the babies well, otherwise that is a problem all in itself, some parents refused to feed their young, abandon them or pluck them and then as a breeder you have to take the baby out, keep in warm in a brooder and hand-feed until weaning.

My advice to you is take all babies to an avian vet to get checked out. They will help you figure out what to do. Please, please don't let your birds hatch any more babies. They can be allowed to breed - tehre is no stopping that -- but once eggs are laid, gently pick them up, give them a good shake to scramble the yolk onside and stop that fertilization and put eggs back down so they can nest on them. Once they loose interest in eggs that never hatch, then you take them out and throw.

Also another question..how is their diet? It is crucial the female get more protein, calcium and water during this time to replenish her supply for her eggs.

 

[gracebowen]

Convince a neighbor to help if you can.

 

[Terry57]

I'm so sorry your babies are having these issues
I agree with Grace, I would get them to a vet as quickly as possible while there is still a chance to fix the problem.
Please let us know how they are doing!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Another vote for VET ASAP!
Breeding and caring for hatchlings really is so very complicated, and an expert is called for. Good for you for reaching out, and good luck, and do let us hear.

 

[EllenD]

As far as the chick with the splayed-legs, please take it to a Certified Avian Vet ASAP, immediately, as the sooner you get it properly splinted, and it has to be done exactly the right way to work, the less permanent damage and permanent disability this bird will have. The older he gets, day by day, the worse it's going to be for the rest of his life, because they literally grow and develop at the speed of light. If it's not done correctly it will not be corrected, and NO, IT WILL NOT CORRECT ITSELF, IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE AND WORSE, AND AS I ALREADY SAID, EVERY DAY THAT GOES BY THE BIRD IS GROWING AND IT'S BECOMING MORE OF AN ISSUE...

As far as your set-up, I understand you didn't realize what genders you had, but I couldn't understand what you meant as far as how you have your birds set-up now. YOUR BREEDING PAIR OF BIRDS WITH THE BABIES NEED TO BE IN A CAGE ALL BY THEMSELVES WITH NO OTHER BIRDS IN WITH THEM!!! This is called "community breeding", and regardless of whether any other bird or birds in with the breeding pair and the babies is male or female, regardless of whether they got along fine before the babies hatched, etc., doesn't matter, you need to separate the breeding male and female and the 2 babies into their own cage WITH A WOODEN NEST BOX THE CORRECT SIZE FOR BUDGIES. They sell them at Petco cheaply, get one ASAP and put the 2 chicks in it. NO GRAVEL OR GRIT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE NEST BOX, YOU MUST USE SOME KIND OF BEDDING TO PREVENT THE SPLAY LEGS IN ADDITION TO OTHER ISSUES. I USE THE "CAREFRESH" PAPER BEDDING. This is not optional. IF YOU ALLOW ANY OTHER BIRD OR BIRDS TO BE IN THE SAME CAGE AS THE BREEDING PAIR AND THE CHICKS, YOU'LL LIKELY END-UP WITH DEAD CHICKS AND/OR DEAD ADULTS. IT'S JUST WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS SITUATION, ALWAYS...

I'm hoping that you are allowing the parents to feed the babies, as you should not hand feed with no experience, however you absolutely need to be ready to do so if one or both of the parents stops feeding the babies, which happens, or the mother dies, etc. Stuff happens all the time, and the babies will die very quickly if the parents stop feeding them. This also means that up until the chicks have all of their feathers, around 5 weeks old, they must be kept in a brooder for heat. Then after they get all of their feathers they must be moved to a "Weaning Cage", which is a regular cage set-up with different diameter perches, toys, different types of feeding cups and water dishes/bottles, this is so they can learn to climb, play, walk, perch, and eat and drink on their own.

Budgies usually are fully weaned between 7-8 weeks old, but prior to that you must be ready to step-in, meaning you must have hand-feeding formula, a hand-feeding syringe, unflavored Pedialyte, a candy thermometer to measure the temperature of the formula before feeding each chick (THIS IS CRUCIAL AND NOT AT ALL OPTIONAL), a Brooder of some kind with an Ambient Thermometer to keep the Brooder at the correct Ambient Temperature for the chicks to properly live and digest their food, and then all the emergency supplements you need if they happen to develop slow crop, sour crop, crop stasis, etc., including Apple Cider Vinegar, Avian Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, etc.

This is not something that can be taken at all lighting, and unless you have all of this stuff on-hand and then you are mentored by an experienced hand-feeder so that you don't aspirate and kill the babies, as they typically die instantly when that happens, you should simply remove future eggs and freeze them overnight, then dispose of them. There are any number of reasons that the parent or parents will stop feeding them, kick them out of the nest box (literally kick them out), or start hurting them or trying to kill them, and that's when you have to step-in and take over. And this is also why I mentioned removing ALL OTHER BIRDS FROM THE CAGE WITH THE PARENTS AND THE CHICKS, BECAUSE IF ONE OF THE OTHER BIRDS TRIES TO GET AT THE CHICKS, AND THEY WILL, THE PARENTS WILL DIE DEFENDING THEIR BABIES. THEN YOU'RE STUCK WITH YOUNG BABIES THAT NEED A MOTHER....

 

[Budgiegirl38]

My question to you is, why didn't you just take the eggs out after they were laid? Do you know how old all your budgies are? Do you know that they are not related (letting sibling birds mate can and will cause genetic defects). If you don't know for sure, then you should NOT be breeding them.

As you have already realized, breeding birds is a complicated process. No bedding underneath the babies likely is contributing to their splayed legs. They do better in a nestbox that only the pair will enter and exit, bedding, and the babies should be weighed daily to make sure they are gaining weight. I hope the parents feed the babies well, otherwise that is a problem all in itself, some parents refused to feed their young, abandon them or pluck them and then as a breeder you have to take the baby out, keep in warm in a brooder and hand-feed until weaning.

My advice to you is take all babies to an avian vet to get checked out. They will help you figure out what to do. Please, please don't let your birds hatch any more babies. They can be allowed to breed - tehre is no stopping that -- but once eggs are laid, gently pick them up, give them a good shake to scramble the yolk onside and stop that fertilization and put eggs back down so they can nest on them. Once they loose interest in eggs that never hatch, then you take them out and throw.

Also another question..how is their diet? It is crucial the female get more protein, calcium and water during this time to replenish her supply for her eggs.

So, they're 16 and 18 days old...I'm aware of inbreeding and no, the parents are not siblings tho the male is albino...They primarily get seed, with millet, kale, cucumber, and assorted fruits on occasion. They always have a cuddle bone and a mineral block. I work at a local pet store that stocks parakeets. I've done a decent amount of research on them. I know how to generally take care of my birds. AGAIN, they're 16-18 days old, their colors are coming in, YES the parents are feeding them. Why didn't I take the eggs out? because I didn't want to disturb the nest. I was under the impression that if I were to move the eggs then, the mother would've abandoned them.

 

[Budgiegirl38]

As far as the chick with the splayed-legs, please take it to a Certified Avian Vet ASAP, immediately, as the sooner you get it properly splinted, and it has to be done exactly the right way to work, the less permanent damage and permanent disability this bird will have. The older he gets, day by day, the worse it's going to be for the rest of his life, because they literally grow and develop at the speed of light. If it's not done correctly it will not be corrected, and NO, IT WILL NOT CORRECT ITSELF, IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE AND WORSE, AND AS I ALREADY SAID, EVERY DAY THAT GOES BY THE BIRD IS GROWING AND IT'S BECOMING MORE OF AN ISSUE...

As far as your set-up, I understand you didn't realize what genders you had, but I couldn't understand what you meant as far as how you have your birds set-up now. YOUR BREEDING PAIR OF BIRDS WITH THE BABIES NEED TO BE IN A CAGE ALL BY THEMSELVES WITH NO OTHER BIRDS IN WITH THEM!!! This is called "community breeding", and regardless of whether any other bird or birds in with the breeding pair and the babies is male or female, regardless of whether they got along fine before the babies hatched, etc., doesn't matter, you need to separate the breeding male and female and the 2 babies into their own cage WITH A WOODEN NEST BOX THE CORRECT SIZE FOR BUDGIES. They sell them at Petco cheaply, get one ASAP and put the 2 chicks in it. NO GRAVEL OR GRIT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE NEST BOX, YOU MUST USE SOME KIND OF BEDDING TO PREVENT THE SPLAY LEGS IN ADDITION TO OTHER ISSUES. I USE THE "CAREFRESH" PAPER BEDDING. This is not optional. IF YOU ALLOW ANY OTHER BIRD OR BIRDS TO BE IN THE SAME CAGE AS THE BREEDING PAIR AND THE CHICKS, YOU'LL LIKELY END-UP WITH DEAD CHICKS AND/OR DEAD ADULTS. IT'S JUST WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS SITUATION, ALWAYS...

I'm hoping that you are allowing the parents to feed the babies, as you should not hand feed with no experience, however you absolutely need to be ready to do so if one or both of the parents stops feeding the babies, which happens, or the mother dies, etc. Stuff happens all the time, and the babies will die very quickly if the parents stop feeding them. This also means that up until the chicks have all of their feathers, around 5 weeks old, they must be kept in a brooder for heat. Then after they get all of their feathers they must be moved to a "Weaning Cage", which is a regular cage set-up with different diameter perches, toys, different types of feeding cups and water dishes/bottles, this is so they can learn to climb, play, walk, perch, and eat and drink on their own.

Budgies usually are fully weaned between 7-8 weeks old, but prior to that you must be ready to step-in, meaning you must have hand-feeding formula, a hand-feeding syringe, unflavored Pedialyte, a candy thermometer to measure the temperature of the formula before feeding each chick (THIS IS CRUCIAL AND NOT AT ALL OPTIONAL), a Brooder of some kind with an Ambient Thermometer to keep the Brooder at the correct Ambient Temperature for the chicks to properly live and digest their food, and then all the emergency supplements you need if they happen to develop slow crop, sour crop, crop stasis, etc., including Apple Cider Vinegar, Avian Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, etc.

This is not something that can be taken at all lighting, and unless you have all of this stuff on-hand and then you are mentored by an experienced hand-feeder so that you don't aspirate and kill the babies, as they typically die instantly when that happens, you should simply remove future eggs and freeze them overnight, then dispose of them. There are any number of reasons that the parent or parents will stop feeding them, kick them out of the nest box (literally kick them out), or start hurting them or trying to kill them, and that's when you have to step-in and take over. And this is also why I mentioned removing ALL OTHER BIRDS FROM THE CAGE WITH THE PARENTS AND THE CHICKS, BECAUSE IF ONE OF THE OTHER BIRDS TRIES TO GET AT THE CHICKS, AND THEY WILL, THE PARENTS WILL DIE DEFENDING THEIR BABIES. THEN YOU'RE STUCK WITH YOUNG BABIES THAT NEED A MOTHER....

Wow, okay, so I feel kind of attacked with this. If you read my initial post. The breeding pair are in a cage together with the babies and they are alone. The other two are in another cage.

Of coarse I let the parents feed the babies...I was careful NOT to disturb my breeding pair, I only went in their cage to replace food and water (and cuddlebone)...Maya actually over-cares for them I think, she is constantly still trying to sit on them.

I've had birds for 8 cumulative years of my life. I've even had birds breed in the past and they did just fine on their own without all the extra stuff you've listed. I understand that breeding birds isn't like breeding fish but again, they did FINE all by themselves, left alone with daily general care.

I didn't expect these birds to breed and I'm not TRYING to breed however, they have, and now I'm trying to let them care for the chicks naturally, but I need advice with the splayed leg issue, so if you have advice for THAT I'd greatly appreciate it.

My birds might not be SUPER healthy, I don't feed them greens as much as I should, BUT I'm not stupid. This is their first clutch and I'm thinking I'm going to separate sexes when it's appropriate after this ordeal and keep cages side by side...I'm not a breeder, but I'm a bird keeper, I'm trying to help them. UGH.

I work at a pet store, I watch people buy 1 parakeet and a small cage for their 10yr old because they're child is crying and they don't want to buy the appropriate supplies. Its disgusting and I'm not one of those people....I'm trying to care for them. I've called a vet and the soonest I can get them in is Wed. It's Mon....they're already past the optimal age for treatment. I think I'm going to have to try to splint them. at least until Wed.

Are there other issues that it may be other than splayed leg that anyone knows of before I splint them? Is there another disease that it might be?

Can I cause potential harm by splinting? if so, what harm exactly? And how do I avoid doing harm? What do I need to be careful of?

Any advice on how to hold the chicks? As well as correctly apply the splint?

Both babies are able to use their one leg, but the other is straight out to the side w/ a locked knee joint and curled back toes. Might this be something else? I've seen cases of splayed leg where the chicks are doing the splits, mine aren't quite that bad off.

 

[Budgiegirl38]

I also understand that If I splint the chicks, the mother may reject and stop feeding them. I know what aspiration is and I'm really HOPING I don't have to hand feed them but am prepared to do so. As stated, this is the hens first clutch...she seems very attached to them, but I need help with the splinting process...thanks...

 

[Budgiegirl38]

Is there a specific way to hold a hatchling while applying a splint? So as to make it comfortable? Should I avoid specific area's on it's body? I've tried to splint them twice now and they're not stable enough in my or my mothers hand to get the splint on. Mama bird is still feeding both of them but I'm worried if I keep messing with them the parents will be upset.

I've created a number of splints:
Some out of small/medium sized hair ties with a 1/2 in straw separator.
Some out of cut make-up sponges with holes about 1in apart
And I've cut non-adhesive sports wrap tape (we're fresh out of medical tape) about 1/2in wide (longer stripes/double ply) in the event that the above 2 don't work and I have to tape them. I'll use small pieces of duct tape to secure the sports wrap...

 

[gracebowen]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y9ORp9VWKk

 

[MonicaMc]

The idea of moving the eggs is to get the mother to not sit on them... aka abandon. You would need to remove everything that is considered a nest or nesting material though...

Handling the chicks wont necessarily cause the hen to abandon them. It's kind of an old wives tale. Yes, it can happen, but not frequently.



The sooner the legs are splinted, the faster it can potentially be corrected, but if you wait too long, they could be stuck like this for the rest of their lives.




Since humans have grown accustomed to the idea that "blue = boy" and "pink = female", this has lead to a lot of confusion when it comes to sexing budgies, because pink ceres in an adult budgie means male, and females can have blue ceres, too! Not the same blue as a male, but still blue enough to confuse people!



Do you have a vet near you that can help guide you and give you advice?

 

[EllenD]

The "EXTRA STUFF" that I told you that you needed, like BABY BIRD FORMULA, HAND-FEEDING SYRINGE, BROODER, THERMOMETERS, ETC. IS NOT "EXTRA", IT'S MINIMAL!!!

I don't care how many years that you've owned birds, that has nothing to do with allowing them to breed RESPONSIBLY, nor does working in a pet shop. Nothing at all. AND JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD CLUTCHES BE PARENT RAISED BEFORE WITHOUT ANY ISSUES DOESN'T MEAN YOU WON'T THE NEXT TIME, OR THIS TIME FOR THAT MATTER...

Do you actually think it's okay that you are completely unprepared to take-over feeding these babies right now? You called what I listed "EXTRA STUFF", but you certainly won't think so if your parents just suddenly stop feeding them. You keep saying they are 16 and 18 days old, so you have a long way to go before they are weaned...What if you have to feed them suddenly? Then you'll go buy the "EXTRA STUFF" I LISTED I suppose...

Don't attack me when I'm being the responsible breeder, AS I'M THE ONE WITH OVER 20 YEARS OF BIRD BREEDING EXPERIENCE, and I cannot tell you how many times I have had to feed day-old babies and 20 day old babies because the parents just suddenly stopped or kicked them out of the nest...

AND YES, THE HARM IN YOU SPLINTING THAT BABY'S LEGS YOURSELF IS THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AND IF IT'S DONE INCORRECTLY, BASED ON A YOUTUBE VIDEO, HE'S GOING TO BE PERMANENTLY DISABLED.

Spend $100 and please take the baby to an Avian Vet and have it's legs splinted properly, it should have been done on day 1...

And by the way, touching the "nest" or disturbing the parents will not cause them to stop feeding, or any issues at all.
I hope every single thing goes perfectly for you without any issues as you've already said it definitely will....

 

[itzjbean]

I have to completely agree with EllenD on this.

The babies are facing permanent disability and you do not seem to think you are doing anything wrong here.

Please reconsider letting your birds breed. The fact that you are letting them breed, with babies that have need of medical assistance and you're trying to fix them with a youtube video, without knowledge of how to intervene when an emergency occurs, that is irresponsible breeding and is highly frowned upon here.

By the way, what I meant before about ages was, how old is your breeding pair? Under a year old will be too young to breed so I was just hoping they are over that age.

 

[Budgiegirl38]

Look lady, I came here for advice. I don't need to you tell me how irresponsible I am. You're a breeder? oh cool, I'm not, was never trying to be, this was an accident. My point was that I'm not stupid in caring for my birds like you assumed I was. Like, this is supposed to be a community page right? So how come you JUMP on me when I came here for advice? The birds have an appt for wed. but thats tomorrow. So now this is the second day I've known about it and had to just let it go.

I've read a number of pages, watched a number of video's and now I'm here looking for experiential advice on the procedure, Sorry I'm trying to educate myself to help in the matter? and lol, again, I'm a bird keeper, not a breeder, I didn't do this on purpose, stop telling me not to let my birds breed again, I didn't encourage or LET them do anything, I didn't even realize the male was a male, thought it was a female (albino), this was an accident. I know I'll have to separate parents and children, might as well separate sexes when appropriate. did I not already say that? pretty sure i did.
Oh, P.S, you attacked me first, go read your other post, put yourself in my shoes, consider your wording and use of CAPS next time.

They're over a year, about 2 yrs actually....and uhm, I stated I would take them to the vet, I've been a nervous wreck since I realized something was wrong, how could you say I seem like I don't care? I understand the possibilities but I'm trying to help, some individuals have recommended applying a splint but given little advice on how to do so. uhm irresponsible breeding?!? irresponsible would be not doing anything for them at all, I've already stated I made a mistake. Sorry I didn't realize this was a forum for parrot breeders and breeders only.

uhm, I came here for advice and got nothing but up-tight bird breeders flaming me for trying to help. I'm taking them to a vet on Wednesday but I'm not returning to this forum after this post. you're welcome.

Thanks for the 'advice'.

 

[gracebowen]

EllenD respectfully I successfully splinted one of my baby tiels once and she healed perfectly. I too was an accidental breeder and have since remedied the situation.

There is no need to shout at the op. She is asking for help.

 

[Budgiegirl38]

Hey Grace, you PM'D me and I tried to reply to you earlier on here because I'm too new to respond to PM's.

Anyway, you were the only one who was helpful to me on this forum. And for that I thank you very much.

However, because I'm unaware of how to go about splinting and I don't want to harm them further, I think I'm just going to wait until I can get to the vet. I successfully splinted the less-bad-off chick, but as soon as I put her down in her cage she kicked it off. I think the vet is my best bet.

On the bright side, I made these little pillows out of papertowel and cotton balls last night and put them in the cage around the edges, the babies are using them to push against and they're using their knee joints on the bad feet to do so. So as long as they stay by the makeshift pillows, their legs aren't extended straight out to the side and their using their joints. .

I'm most worried about the leg bones/joints forming in a locked position sooner than I can get them to the vet, so to see them using their knee joints and bad legs is a good sign I think...

 

[Scott]

Hey Grace, you PM'D me and I tried to reply to you earlier on here because I'm too new to respond to PM's.

Anyway, you were the only one who was helpful to me on this forum. And for that I thank you very much.

However, because I'm unaware of how to go about splinting and I don't want to harm them further, I think I'm just going to wait until I can get to the vet. I successfully splinted the less-bad-off chick, but as soon as I put her down in her cage she kicked it off. I think the vet is my best bet.

On the bright side, I made these little pillows out of papertowel and cotton balls last night and put them in the cage around the edges, the babies are using them to push against and they're using their knee joints on the bad feet to do so. So as long as they stay by the makeshift pillows, their legs aren't extended straight out to the side and their using their joints. .

I'm most worried about the leg bones/joints forming in a locked position sooner than I can get them to the vet, so to see them using their knee joints and bad legs is a good sign I think...

First and foremost, welcome to the forums! We exist for the benefit of our birds and strive to make interacting an enjoyable experience!

Life happens, and unforeseen events occur. The body of knowledge here is vast, yet we all have value and something to contribute. Advice delivered rudely is problematic regardless of good intent.

I concur with the ultimate decision to seek vet care, preferable a certified avian practice.

New members cannot use the PM system until 20 posts are realized. However, any moderator can pass messages between parties until the limit is reached, or outside communication is established. Thanks, Grace, for reaching out!!