Sneezing Scarlet

[Debbied]

Hi everyone! First post here. My son has a 5 year old Scarlet boy named Clyde. His 2 year old girl blue and gold that he shared his cage with died last February from Macaw Wasting disease . It was horrible. Had an autopsy done to verify. She was at Dr Jenkins, the vet for 3 days. He is an avian specialist. Back to Clyde.. Vet said he is most likely a carrier but healthy enough to fight it off. Clyde has had sneezing issues for months now with a swollen nasal cavity for months now. He had antibiotic shot, nasal flushes, and now antibiotics given thru a nebulizer in a large clear container for 30 minutes a day. Nothing helps. He has a purifier in his room. You can see that his sinus has stuff in it. Vet is at a loss. Ryan my son is 23 and he stresses so much that he is going to get sick and die especially after loosing Siri, the blue and gold. These are his kids and he spent over $8000. last year to care for them.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thank you,
Gramcaw


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[Flynhigh]

Debbied,

Welcome and I'm sure someone here with many more years knowledge than me will be able to offer some help. I am very sorry to hear of your loss of Siri and truly hope you can find some help for Clyde. My only suggestion would be a second opinion with another CAV.

 

[Debbied]

Thank you for your thoughtfulness. He did have the other vet in the office see her last time. She was the one that suggested the nebulizer treatments. Ryan said he can hear him sneezing at night when he’s in bed. I hope we figure something out soon. [emoji56]


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[Flynhigh]

Absolutely, Do you have another CAV local to you ?

 

[Debbied]

This one is an hour away. The next one is about an hour and twenty. I think it’s a good idea though. We are all human and you never know what he may have missed.


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[Flynhigh]

Exactly!! Many times in my experience I've had vets tell me almost verbatim within the same office that is , same diagnosis. Still good vets but they communicate with each other and many times out of frustration or not having had experience with an issue and to get to the next client they agree and get you to move on. I would call and at least talk to the next closest and see what they think, I'm sure they'll want to see him and with some luck have other options for treatment. In my opinion you've run the course with the current vet as they don't seem to have any more answers.

 

[ChristaNL]

Simple but harsh: retesting is needed.
Not because the ELISA will be more/less positive, but the concentration of the virus can vary. And despite everything...you need to know where you stand, so get that bloodwork done. (I do not trust those random feathertesting at all).
Not evey parrot that shares a cage with a PDD-bird gets the disease at all!
Especially grown-up, healthy birds are very resilient- so get him tested, plze.


PDD (lets stick to the better known names for diseases/ Proventricular Dilatation Disease -> because is it not just macaws that suffer from it.) and the bornavirus that (most likely) causes it are horrible
I am SO sorry.

Not sure if you guys do anything like this, but use NSAIDs to relieve a few symptoms?

Sorry- this is old world versus new: we have the hardest time getting antibiotics when we need them (doctors refuse to prescribe unless really there is no other way to treat something and we cannot get them any other way) you guys seem to buy&swallow them like candy...


but no antibiotic in the world will get rid of a virus.


Why hasn't your CAV done a culture by now? (if they can do a nasal flush they have the skills to harvest some material, right?)

Just for the record: are there any other birds around?
Dander from other birds (Toos, greys etc.) has been know to really irritate macaw-airways.
Do you have a mold infestation somewhere, new garden/houseplants he may be allergic to?
Did you switch detergents or other cleaning procucts, does your son use loads of deodorant/ hairgel etc. (usualy more a teenager-issue, but you never know).
Does your airco need cleaning... there are so many things that can bother birds just in the house...

 

[noodles123]

I am sorry you are going through this. How many times has he been tested?--the feather tests aren't accurate at all, so blood is the way to go (even though it still produces false negatives due to the nature of this infection.

EDIT-
Okay, so I wrote my first reply about PBFD, because I spaced and mixed the 2 up. PDD is not very well understood, but certain strains are thought to stem from ABV. Your other bird is likely a carrier and this means that he can spread it to other birds without showing symptoms. It is also very hard to test for, as false negatives occur frequently. In carriers or even birds who have just been exposed for the first time, the virus can sometimes flare up many years later (as few as 1 month and as many as 10 years). It has confusing incubation periods and is fairly contagious...That having been said, they don't fully understand why some birds are more at-risk than others. One theory actually posits that previous exposure to certain strains can increase the likelihood that a bird will contract the illness when exposed to subsequent strains. Thankfully, this one doesn't live as long on surfaces (don't get me wrong, it can live for up to 6 months-- but PBFD can be viable for years). It can still be spread through things like feather dust on your clothing and in your hair to other birds...so, keep that in mind when handling other birds or visiting places where birds are housed.


How is your humidity level in the house?
Do you use any household cleaners, such as bleach, windex, lysol, pinesol, scrubbing bubbles, kaboom, comet etc? Any cleaner is going to be unsafe to use in the same home as a bird unless it is something like vinegar and water (unheated), baking soda, an avian-safe veterinary cleaner (like f10 SC), grapefruit seed extract with water or some varieties of natural cleaners..
Do you use any air fresheners, candles, or scented oils? These are also bad for birds.



Also, he could have aspergillosis (this fungal infection is tough to catch because, in some birds who have had it long enough, the body adjusts and white-blood cell count will be normal). It takes a combination of x-rays, blood, scopes, swabs etc to pin it down definitely in many cases, and treatment is not very easy even if caught..it tends to be a constant battle with flare-ups etc etc. Nebulizer treatments containing anti-fungal agents are often used in aspergillosis cases. If it is aspergillosis, you will want to keep everything very clean and keep your bird's immune system as strong as possible. If you aren't already, consider a daily avian probiotic, healthy foods (no peanuts, no sunflowers, no salt etc), and make sure that the air is free from irritants/dust etc. I have a Veve hepa purifier that I run for my cockatoo. If you get a purifier, make sure it is non-ionizing/non-ozone producing and make sure you vacuum frequently (preferably with a hepa filter vac)

 

[ParrotGenie]

I am sorry you are going through this. How many times has he been tested?--the feather tests aren't accurate at all, so blood is the way to go (even though it still produces false negatives due to the nature of this infection.

EDIT-
Okay, so I wrote my first reply about PBFD, because I spaced and mixed the 2 up. PDD is not very well understood, but certain strains are thought to stem from ABV. Your other bird is likely a carrier and this means that he can spread it to other birds without showing symptoms. It is also very hard to test for, as false negatives occur frequently. In carriers or even birds who have just been exposed for the first time, the virus can sometimes flare up many years later (as few as 1 month and as many as 10 years). It has confusing incubation periods and is fairly contagious...That having been said, they don't fully understand why some birds are more at-risk than others. One theory actually posits that previous exposure to certain strains can increase the likelihood that a bird will contract the illness when exposed to subsequent strains. Thankfully, this one doesn't live as long on surfaces (don't get me wrong, it can live for up to 6 months-- but PBFD can be viable for years). It can still be spread through things like feather dust on your clothing and in your hair to other birds...so, keep that in mind when handling other birds or visiting places where birds are housed.


How is your humidity level in the house?
Do you use any household cleaners, such as bleach, windex, lysol, pinesol, scrubbing bubbles, kaboom, comet etc? Any cleaner is going to be unsafe to use in the same home as a bird unless it is something like vinegar and water (unheated), baking soda, an avian-safe veterinary cleaner (like f10 SC), grapefruit seed extract with water or some varieties of natural cleaners..
Do you use any air fresheners, candles, or scented oils? These are also bad for birds.



Also, he could have aspergillosis (this fungal infection is tough to catch because, in some birds who have had it long enough, the body adjusts and white-blood cell count will be normal). It takes a combination of x-rays, blood, scopes, swabs etc to pin it down definitely in many cases, and treatment is not very easy even if caught..it tends to be a constant battle with flare-ups etc etc. Nebulizer treatments containing anti-fungal agents are often used in aspergillosis cases. If it is aspergillosis, you will want to keep everything very clean and keep your bird's immune system as strong as possible. If you aren't already, consider a daily avian probiotic, healthy foods (no peanuts, no sunflowers, no salt etc), and make sure that the air is free from irritants/dust etc. I have a Veve hepa purifier that I run for my cockatoo. If you get a purifier, make sure it is non-ionizing/non-ozone producing and make sure you vacuum frequently (preferably with a hepa filter vac)

I agree with this 100%

 

[Laurasea]

Hello welcome. I'm glad experienced members are offering advice.
I just so sorry for your son's loss, and his ongoing issues with your grand feathers baby.
I always recommend a second opinion when dealing with serious diagnosis. Second opinions have saved two of my pets from being euthanized, and let them live a decade longer happy lives.
In your case I would seek out a vet school, as they are the cutting edge, and you have the bennifits of many minds coming together to work on your case, and often off site consultants as well. It's worth how ever far you have to drive , for a consultation.
Best wishes to you and yours.

 

[Debbied]

Thank you for all the amazing suggestions! I have been using Clorox wipes on the hard floor surface. Going to stop and use vinegar and water. My son does use hair gel. Clyde loves to snuggle him. Going to go through other things that might irritate him. Also get copy of all the tests and bloodwork he’s had done. I’ll call the nearest vet school. He scratches his head/nose a lot also. I’m going to add past tests on here and results when I have them to further pick your brains. [emoji56]Again... THANK YOU!!
Clyde’s gramcaw [emoji23]


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[Debbied]

No other birds. 2 Boston terriers, using a heppa filter and humidifier. I do laundry and rinse all clothes twice. No oils, cleaning lady used carpet deodorizer. Will tell her not to. We don’t burn any candles. My husband does vaporize cannibas for pain and nausea for his cancer. His room is on the other end of the house. It’s a single story. Have changed the air filters. The house is 6 years old and was mold tested for my husbands illness and came back negative. Ryan takes him in the shower with him. Ryan has made numerous recipes for food. He won’t eat fresh cut foods. He only gets organic. He just the entire cage apart and took it outside and washed with soap and water and threw away all the wood toys. I know newspaper irritates my nose. Ever heard of it bothering a bird? Our carpet has been cleaned a few times due to puppy peeing. He always sounds a little hoarse. Most of the floor in his room is covered with a thin board that is smooth making it easy to clean. We both work at Starbucks. Allergic to coffee? I can’t think of anything else right now. Really trying to make sure I give you all the details in case one of you have an idea.



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[noodles123]

No other birds. 2 Boston terriers, using a heppa filter and humidifier. I do laundry and rinse all clothes twice. No oils, cleaning lady used carpet deodorizer. Will tell her not to. We don’t burn any candles. My husband does vaporize cannibas for pain and nausea for his cancer. His room is on the other end of the house. It’s a single story. Have changed the air filters. The house is 6 years old and was mold tested for my husbands illness and came back negative. Ryan takes him in the shower with him. Ryan has made numerous recipes for food. He won’t eat fresh cut foods. He only gets organic. He just the entire cage apart and took it outside and washed with soap and water and threw away all the wood toys. I know newspaper irritates my nose. Ever heard of it bothering a bird? Our carpet has been cleaned a few times due to puppy peeing. He always sounds a little hoarse. Most of the floor in his room is covered with a thin board that is smooth making it easy to clean. We both work at Starbucks. Allergic to coffee? I can’t think of anything else right now. Really trying to make sure I give you all the details in case one of you have an idea.



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Barring illness, shampoos/soap/carpet cleaners/cannabis/cleaners= biggest possible issues so far. If your husband can open the window when he does that or step outside...laundry detergent can also be an irritant (use free and clear/unscented if you can). Soaps and shampoos with scents can also cause issues.

Also- another possible major issue--Do you microwave in plastic or use any heating appliances (many of these can contain ptfe/pfoa/teflon--including blow dryers, pans, curling irons, irons, ironing board covers, griddles, rice cookers, humidifiers..the list goes on)..Carpet cleaners are a known irritant as well...as is hair-gel/spray.


Good luck and please keep in close contact with the vet!

 

[Debbied]

So I have spent hours trying to find a good avian vet to get another opinion for Clyde. He has been going to Dr Jenkins in San Diego. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
Thanks!!!!


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[noodles123]

There are websites where you can use to search for CAVs, but if you don't get a response on this thread, you could also make a new one asking specifically about finding a vet CAV in the San Diego area.


Wherever you do go, I would let them know ahead of time about the PDD exposure and your last bird (so that they know to be extra careful with cleaning etc).

 

[Debbied]

Ok.. good advice. Thank you!


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[WakaWaka]

Hoping you find a good CAV and diagnosis is not life threatening !!



How is the humidity in your house?
Where are you located?

Dry air can irritate our sinus cavities and also affect our feathered friends.
We always run additional humidification during dry winter months.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Looks as if this might be helpful...


Certified Avian Vets
https://abvp.com/animal-owners/find-an-abvp-specialist/
If none are near you...
Avian Veterinarians
http://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
In my opinion, any of the vets listed here should be better than a regular vet.

 

[noodles123]

Hoping you find a good CAV and diagnosis is not life threatening !!



How is the humidity in your house?
Where are you located?

Dry air can irritate our sinus cavities and also affect our feathered friends.
We always run additional humidification during dry winter months.

With regard to the statement, "diagnosis is not life threatening !!" I would like to clarify---PDD is considered a terminal illness...but ABV is not always. http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/articles/pdd.htm
Some ABV strains progress to PDD and there are birds that can be carriers, but that doesn't mean that other birds will have the same asymptomatic reaction once infected (even when exposed to exactly the same strain). That is why it is so important to be cautious, as you know your bird may be carrying the virus. Even an asymptomatic bird can become symptomatic if stressed, but it just depends. It is all very confusing and complicated...Not all exposed birds contract it ( ABV or PDD)..and with PDD, sometimes incubation periods can last 8 years.

I am not saying that to stress anyone out or to focus on the negative. A bird could test positive for ABV and live a normal life (depending on the situation), while another would not. While some treatments are available for comfort etc, such as NSADIs (which may, in some cases, extend life expectancy compared to an untreated bird with PDD), there isn't a cure for this progressive illness.
Here is some more good information on this confusing topic: https://www.2ndchance.info/MacawWastingSyndr.htm

 

[Debbied]

That’s a great article. Thank you! Taking Clyde to another avian vet tomorrow.

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