Sigh... I think here we go again..

[SharonC]

I tend to be a little firm with my crew....I'd leave him alone. He's not "getting it", so I'd give him some space. It certainly can't hurt the situation.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

Here is video of me trying to handle him today. A big problem is I' wondering if he gets used to being handled with a glove, and stops biting, if he'll start again if I try to handle him without a glove. I can't imagine how my hand would look if I didn't have the glove.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhFBYBCm0EY"]YouTube - Leo Biting phase[/ame]

 

[Bobby34231]

You'll have much better results if you have him step up instead of trying to step back, instead of placing the bird in front of the perch and trying to push him off your hand onto the perch, try going under the perch till the bird is behind it and bring him forward till he is between his chest and feet level to the perch and tell him to step up, if he doesn't then continue to bring him slowly forward towards the perch placing slight pressure against the perch with his lower chest and feet.......

 

[Rrrma]

I agree with Bob, also you allowed that to go on way to long. If after the first couple of times he doesn't listen, then try to put him on the bottom of the cage and if he won't go off then flip him over on his back on the bottom of the cage. If he won't let go of the glove, take it off with him attached to it. It looks like a dominance thing to me and he is the one winning. You won't hurt him if you use a little bit of force to try and push him off or if you turn him over. He needs to realize you are the alpha in the house and he needs to submit to you(without being afraid of you).

 

[WolfmoonCT]

I tried bringing him in from behind the perch, but with him on my hand, it just hits his beak where he's biting me, so the perch never gets to his chest or feet. That's why I tried going backwards. I have tried to hang him upside down in his cage, but not taking the glove off.

Think I should try this every few hours as a training session? Or do you think that will just make him agitated more. I really don't want him getting used to being handled with a glove on.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

I went out and tried to bring the bar in from the front, and he doesn't budge. It hits his beak cause of the way he's standing and biting. So I let him turn over and slid the glove off. He just stands on it and chews at it for a few seconds. I think the best bet for him is to just leave him in his house for a few days and leave him alone completely. No attention to talking. I hate to do it, but I think he needs to be left alone so he see's what he's missing.

Some people try to say they don't know why they are not being allowed out and it's mean. I think he knows why.

Earlier today when trying to handle him he flew down to the floor. I left him there and went down the hallway, with him watching me. He walked himself down the hallway into the bedroom, and with me sitting in my chair with my feet on the desk so he couldn't get to me, he just stood under my chair looking up at me. So I put the gloves on, and as soon as I picked him up he started tearing at the gloves again.

Hard to interpret what he wants when he does stuff like that, or when he makes all sorts of noises and says hello when he sees me if he's in his cage.

 

[Rrrma]

I can't say I have much experience training birds, and I KNOW dogs are a completely different species, but from my many years of being an obedience trainer... I'd say he is trying to dominate you. Maybe it is breeding season for him and maybe he views you as a rival, even if there is no prize to be had.

To me it just sounds like he is trying to scare you into submission, and you don't need to let him do that.

Greys are smart, I completely believe he knows why he is being put in time out. I do think leaving him in the cage for a few days would be good, but you also need to use a firmer tone when talking to him. I think you need to explain to him why he is being left in the cage. While you are in his area doing whatever you need to do, tell him in a very simple short sentence and firm tone why he is being left in there and then keep your back to him, regardless of what he does or says.

Turn your back on him any time he does something negative. After a couple of days I would start rewarding him for good behavior. Does he have a treat he likes? Tell him if he does X he will get Y and don't give it to him unless he does X. Tell him he won't get out of the cage unless he does X, then reward him with a door opening if he does so.
Start with something simple like a target(he does know target right?).

I can't say I'm the best at giving advice as I haven't had to deal with this extent of poor behavior from a bird, only a human child and dogs lol!

 

[WolfmoonCT]

I can't say he has a favorite treat. He love sunflower seeds, but even those are not a huge reward for him. When I tried clicker training with him he would take the frist 3 or so, then after that, he would drop them, and if he started dropping them and I did any more, he would bite at me if I tried to give him one.

Next week I'm in the office all week. So he'll only get out of his cage when I come home. Then I'm off on vacation for 2 weeks. Maybe being left alone for 2 weeks he'll either get over what is bothering him, or he'll learn to live in a cage.

There is a whole backstory on how I got him, but to make a long story short, he was kept oustide in a small cage with 8 other grey's by a breeder down in Florida for about 7 months. The conditions were horrible. That's why I hate to leave him in a cage, cause I don't want him thinking he's back to being left in a cage all the time, and I dont' think it's right to leave them like that, but maybe this break will be the best for both of us.

I've also used a much harsher voice to him a couple times.. mainly when I wasn't wearing gloves and he was able to break skin, but I'm afraid that it makes him scared of me. Cause before he gets aggressive like this, when he's being good, no matter how nice I talk to him, he would start shaking. The only time I ever raise my voice to him is when he bites. Otherwise I'm always talking to him and trying to get some interaction from him, which normally would just involve him sitting on the perch shaking, even though he would have his feathers loose and a foot up.

The past 2 weeks, he's not wanted me to be out of his sight. Even if he's in the room with me, if I go into to the bathroom, he would start making noises cause I was out of the room, even though he could still see me. He finally just started to interact with me also. Just a few times when I asked what a doggie sounded like he would make a little bark, and I would tell him how good he was and praise him. That's why this nearly instant switch is so hard to understand.

 

[greenbirdsf]

Okay, this might sound harsh but after reading about your bird's history I am going to tell you NO to gloves and harsh tones with your bird. The bird is terrified, period. African Greys are not known for being aggressive birds and I would argue that birds bite because it is their only defense against a percieved threat. Gloves are freaking scary to most birds, especially one that had been living under (from what you described) harsh and/or neglectful conditions. Do you have a good avian vet who knows a lot about behavior who can help you with this? Ignoring your bird is going to do absolutely nothing. Getting angry is not a solution and you should remove yourself from the bird's area if you get overly frustrated because the bird will pick up on your feelings and it will not be productive. The only way you are going to get anywhere is with tons of patience, baby talk, not pushing too hard, and allowing the bird to slowly get to know you and understand that you are a friend not a foe. You don't "train" a bird if it has no bond with you yet. After you have it's trust, then you might get it to do some fun things with you but training is for dogs, not parrots.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

This is the first time I've resorted to wearing gloves. I've never worn them before. I only started wearing them because I have a good amount of cuts and bites from him now. I have permanant scars on my thumb and first finger from him and his last time he got like this. I tried to use the perch with him today with no gloves on. He stepped up, turned sideways and lunged at my hand right away. He's not scared of the gloves. He has better grip to hold on when he's trying to bite on the gloves actually. If I only used my hands, I would have to shake him off and he would fall to the floor. I don't want him hurt, so the gloves were used to preserve my skin.

From what I've researched, there are only 3 avian vets in my state.. with 2 of them on the other side of the state being nearly 3hr drive from here. He wont' do well in a travel cage. He hated being in one when I flew him back from Florida. He would chew on the side and climb all around and kinda throw himself against the door.. I've never put him back in it since.

I never scream at him. I only use a stern voice to him when he bites. Otherwise I do baby talk to him and praise him all the time. Before this big change, I could walk over to his cage and he would come out of it or over to it, and I could say "give daddy a kiss" and he would stretch his neck as far up as he could to give me one. I try to bring him into every room I go to. As you can see from the video, I don't have to push my hand into him to get him to step up. He willingly steps up, even now. Just as soon as he's on it, he waits a few seconds, then starts biting. His feathers aren't raised he's not opening his beak or growling or hissing. He just steps up, then starts biting.

I can't tell how to get him to bond, cause no matter what I've read and tried, nothing worked with him.

 

[greenbirdsf]

Has anything changed in your household that might have triggered changes in his behavior? Do you know how old he is and if he is in fact male or female?

 

[greenbirdsf]

And also how long have you had him? Sorry, I am relatively new to this forum so I don't know if you gave that info already.

 

[SharonC]

Well, I certainly see why you use the glove. I actually think the glove or a stick perch is a good idea for now. The biting is similiar to what Fred does when he steps up...he'll step up willingly and then have a little bite. Instead of saying NO, try a different sound...Uh Uh, or something similiar in a sharp tone. Fred responds immediately to that. Then I tell him what a good boy he is and continue talking or moving with him...

I do agree that he seems to be dominating, and you need to get him off quicker. He is being allowed to do that longer than he should. Move faster, and don't allow that to continue for too long...NO will mean nothing to him, if he's allowed to continue for so long...

 

[WolfmoonCT]

Well, here is the link to his last biting thread.

http://www.parrotforums.com/behavioral/3343-sudden-change-aggressive-gray.html

And just the backstory for you

Let me give you a history of my Gray Leo. Leo was given to me back in the winter of 2008 while I was visiting my parents in Florida. At the time I was house hunting, and my apt would not allow birds. My mother has a gray, and a senegal. So taking care of him was not going to be anything new for her. She agreed to watch him until I was able to buy a house. All we know about Leo was that he was given to a family who worked at a boys ranch. She was told that the owners elderly husband could no longer help her with 2 birds, so Leo was given to this person. This person had him for about 4 months before they decided they were moving, and where they were moving, they could not take him with them. So, she offered him to us, and we took him. My mother had him from Feb till Nov.

I bought my house October 31st. My mother had been searching for a place to board her birds in the future, for any trips she may want to take. She found a man who supposedly had a great big aviary and told her all sorts of lies about his place. He was a breeder who supposedly boarded birds. Mom asked me to talk to him, as he had nearly convinced her that being single and working, a gray would not be good for me. I talked to him a couple times and it became clear that he wanted to trade me Leo for a pair of other birds more suitable for single folks.. like sun conures. I had no intention of giving Leo to him, and told him so.

Well, my mother's gray needed wing trimming, so she brought her gray and Leo out there because she wanted to see the place. How it ended up, I still really don't understand, but she called me saying that she had left Leo there, to see how he handled being around other birds, but that I prob wouldn't want him to stay there if I traded him.. I promptly told her to go back and get him. She called the man and told him she was coming back to get Leo, as I (being the rightful owner) did not want him to be left there. Leo had been there less than 30 min, and when she got there, the man told her that she gave Leo to him and to get off his property. It became clear that he only wanted Leo because he needed a male to mate with this females. It took us 6 months and just about $4,000 in legal fees to get Leo back. I know we could have just left him there and bought like 4 birds for that price, but that was not the point. We did not want to leave Leo there. The cages were unkept, dirty, out in the open with no covers over them. After finally winning the lawsuit to get him back, my mother went and picked him up. As soon as Leo saw my father, the first word he said was my fathers name. He remembered him.

Leo stayed with my mother for about a month while I arranged vacation to go get him in May. I brought him home, and from May to September things were beautiful. He can't stand not being in the same room as me when I'm home. I would get home from work, and open his cage, and he would come climbing out and step right up onto my hand, and I would take him outside (wings were clipped right before I picked him up from mom) and we would walk around the yard. He would stand on my hand making noises, while we would go look at the garden. Soon as we turned around from the garden, he would hold my finger and start flapping his wings like he was flying as I walked him back to the house. He would do the same thing in the house as I walked him from the living room where his house is, to my bedroom where he has a jungle perch. At 7pm he would start making noises and start pacing across the top bar, until I picked him up and took him to his house. Then he woudl climb inside and go up onto one of the perches and go to sleep.

During the first weekend of September, my girlfriend who lives away from me flew in and stayed with me for 5 days. Leo seemed to take to her very quick. He always wanted to be in the same room as her, and he would whistle to her and respond to her whistling back. Something he never did for me. No matter how much I talked to him. About 2 days after she left, something snapped in him. Every time I went near him, he raises his feathers, and bites if I try to pick him up. He will step up onto my hand, then once on it, he digs his beak into my thumb. Sometimes he wont' even raise his feathers, and he'll step up, then soon as you move, he digs in biting hard and drawing blood. Today he stepped up when I asked him if he wanted to go to the kitchen (which he bobs his head in a yes fashion as if saying yes) and after he stepepd up, he tore a chunk of skin of my thumbs knuckle almost down to the bone. I currently have about 24 cuts and slices (one he did was nearly 3/4 of an inch long across my thumb) on my thumb. I'm starting to get afraid to pick him up. But if you leave him in his cage and go to another room, he will spend 6-8 hours talking and making sounds for me to come get him.

I'm not sure what there is to do with him. I don't understand why he snapped like he did, or how to correct it. I did make the mistake of yelling at him a couple times after receiving his bites daily for almost a month and a half. But I've tried doing step ups and downs and if he doesn't bite giving him praise and a reward.. It seems it's only good for that session. After that he's back to being extremely aggressive. Up until he started becoming aggressive I never once yelled at him. I talked to him all the time and sang songs to him..

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I've had him just over a year. From what I was told originally, he is 20. Nothing in my household has changed. This morning he started with his usual good mornings to get me to open his cage door. I like when he talks so I do reward that with opening his door. I went back to bed for about a half hour, listening to him make his sounds out there to get his attention. I went out about an hour later, and he was just sitting on his door. I walked over to him and told him good morning. There really wasn't any change in his body language one way or the other, he was just looking at me. I went and got some sunflower seeds in the shell and gave him one.When I tried to give him a second one, he just looked at me, and this pupils were going in and out, and I took this as a sign he wasn't liking me giving him food, so I just put the seeds away, and left the room. Soon as I did I can hear him out there making noises, saying "Hey!" (or i think that's what he's saying) and I even heard him say step up. He seems that he wants attention, but he does not want to be handled in any way.

 

[SharonC]

I've not much experience with big birds, but Fred does sometimes have an attitude problem, as I expect from an Amazon. Here's what I would do...and I could be totally wrong. I find there are many opinions on handling problems, so this IS just an opinion.

If he's pinning, back off. Give him a choice whether he's handled or not. If you are handling, and he bites, respond with a NO, or some sound, and immediately back to his cage. If he seems to want to try later....Same method. It may just be a phase...who knows?...but he needs to learn that biting is not acceptable to you. I see nothing wrong with letting him know you're displeased. That's not to say you scream at him, but do something so that he understands that you ARE displeased. I find that often, what applies to raising children applies well to birds. Screaming doesn't work...but they need to know and respect rules...

 

[greenbirdsf]

The eye flashing can be a sign of aggression but it can also just be excitement or interest.

If your bird is that old, he is sexually mature, so I would not rule out hormone cycles as a reason for the aggression. It also sounds like he has been through a few bad situations and in seeing his positive reaction to your girlfriend, perhaps he likes women more than men. My bird spent her first year in a home with a man who had no clue what he was doing. He was not outright abusive with her but clumsy, neglectful and basically should have never had a parrot to begin with. He thought exotic animals were just toys. Anyhow, it's twenty years later and to this day, our bird is WAY less trusting with men. She rarely shows fear when a woman she doesn't know comes over but strange men will cause her to cower in her cage. She will go to my husband willingly and easily, but he still can't handle her the way I can, which is pretty much anything I want to do within reason AND if she permits it.

Even a few months in that horrible man's breeding facility certainly had an impact on your bird. Thank goodness you were able to get Leo out of there!! Parrots have very long memories. The fact that he has been moved around between owners only adds to his insecurity. You don't know how these various other people in his past treated him. It is going to take a lot of love, patience and consistency from you to earn this little guy's trust and affection. I can't stress to you enough how smart they are and all the effort will pay off. You obviously love him very much, seeing what yo went through to get him back. You need to start figuring out what his triggers are and I would suggest not pushing him to get on your arm, with or without the glove until you have some solid idea about what is setting him off. You bird just needs to keep getting the message that you are not going to force him into anything, period. Does he have plenty to focus on in his cage (toys, multiple perches/swings)? Do you encourage foraging activities for treats? If you move him to a play stand for hours, does he have stuff to do other than sit there? Greys can get really neurotic when stressed or bored and they need stimulation. Is he on a good pelleted diet with additional vegetables? Get rid of the sunflower seeds. They are the WORST thing you can feed your bird as they are void of nutrients and full of fat. Walnuts or raw almonds (smallish pieces) are a better treat. If your bird has not been to a decent avian vet (ever?), you have no idea if an underlying health issue could be affecting his behavior. I am going to direct you to my vet's website since you said you don't have a good avian vet near your home. There are patient information handouts you can download about bonding, diet etc. I would almost suggest you call them to see if they know of any vets near you- Dr. Speer is very involved in national avian vet organizations and he has published a few books that you might want to get. You really do need to establish a relationship with a vet that you can get to in the future- I drive over an hour to see Speer and it is not because there isn't a closer option for me, he is just totally the best. Your bird might do better in the car than you think; you can use a larger travel cage than what airlines will allow and it is less hectic that being on a plane.
Anyway, here is the website:
Home
They might even help you over the phone; I have dealt with Speer and Dr. Fitzgerald and they are both beyond fantastic.

I think it is truly wonderful that you are giving Leo a second chance after all that has happened to him in his life. I urge you not to take things that he does personally and just keep being gentle and patient with him while you try to decipher what is happening in his head.

 

[greenbirdsf]

If that link doesn't work, just search for Medical Center for Birds Oakley CA

 

[WolfmoonCT]

He has toys to play with. Any type of foraging toy he won't touch. He's pretty lazy that way. the sunflower seeds are not his main meal. he gets about an 1/8th of a cup of Kaytee seed mix at night then Zupreem for the rest of the day. I give him fruit and veggies, but he doesn't like them much. he takes a few bites of each type then drops them.

He wants to be around me. Like this morning, he was being loud, so i waited till he quieted down, then I went out and sat on the couch in the same room as him. He just kinda looked at me from inside the cage for a about 3 min, then came out onto that rope perch you see in the video, fluffed up a bit, lifted one foot and went to sleep. This shows me that he is comfortable with me around him, but he just doesn't want to be picked up. I used the perch last night to bring him to the bedroom, cause when i asked him if he wanted to go to the bedroom he shook his head yes.

I got him all the way to the bedroom and put the perch onto one of his gymset perches, and then he lunged at me again. I just dropped the perch and he flew to the ground. I sat in my computer chair with my feet up so he couldn't bite them. He walked around biting my slippers and one of my shoes a few times, then kinda looked up at me a for about 30 seconds then went under the chair. I could hear him biting on some of the plastic, then I hear him move around a bit, and he was climbing up the handles and trying to get on top. I didn't stay around to let him get on top and bite me.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

Well, today Leo was out on his door and I was cleaning his cage, when he jumped onto my shirt and bit me on the shoulder leaving multiple bite marks and blood. I'm sorry to say, but I just don't think I can keep him much longer. He's too aggressive. My fiancee has 2 small children and I can't risk them being bitten when I move in with her.

When I finally shook him off my shirt, he forced him to walk up the ladder of his house and for a bit he turned around near the top and hissed at me. I hate to say it, but he got me so so so mad. I really yelled at him. And I mean yelled. I don't think I will ever get to have a bond with him. He needs someplace who can give him whatever he wants. I've tried everything, and he just doesn't want to be here.

 

[SharonC]

I'm so sorry that it's this way for you and Leo. I do understand your anger. Did he react at all to it, as in did he at least look a little ashamed of himself? It may be hormones, and if it is, it will pass. I know that's not much comfort, as you seem to have really tried with him. The small children in the house is a big factor to consider as well...