Should I adopt this three year old ruby macaw? PART 2!!

[Greenclaws]

I went to go meet the ruby macaw (Rubin) today! I came prepared with my list of questions for the owners, but ended up leaving with even more questions. I would really appreciate if any experienced macaw owners, especially of rehabilitated birds, would answer what they can. It's the final step in making my decision to adopt him or not. I've numbered the questions so that anyone can easily just pick and chose what they want to comment on.

Ill start with the pros: I brought rubin's favorite food with me and he readily accepted the peanuts and took them from my hand! He got to the point where he would pace back and forth on the top perch of his play stand and he would come to where I was standing and lean down and watch me intently, waiting for peanuts.

I also heard him say a few words and three of the owners young kids were downstairs and I got to watch them run up to his perch and touch his feet and tail without him lunging.

OK.. moving onto my concerns and questions:
I want my ideal bird to learn to like meeting strangers. I have a lot of friends and family always visiting our house and I plan on giving them treats to give the bird so he learns to like meeting people. I also want a bird that I can take to the park, etc. on my arm. I would of course instruct each person before they interact with my macaw.

1) The owners tried to pet and scratch him but he kept lunging and grabbing their fingers with his beak to make them leave him alone. He was shaking and they said it wasn't how he normally behaved, it was just because I was there and he was nervous. They said they rarely ever have visitors. Are most macaws like this when new people are around? How easily can I teach him to accept other people, as long as I go slow with him and don't force him to step up, etc if he isnt comfortable? Is a three year old bird still able to learn socialization skills easily?


2) He got used to my presence after a while, and like I said, started to associate me with tasty peanuts and took an interest in me. He let his owners pet him but the guy told me he loved getting his butt scratched and showed me how he sticks his butt up when he does it. Isn't that bad? I've heard it triggers breeding behavior. Is that something I shouldn't do if I own him?

3) The top perch of his play stand is above human eye level. And his owners let him ride on their shoulder. Is that going to create dominant behavior?

4) He was dropping peanuts on the ground and his female owner picked one up, peeled it, and held it for him between her fingers. He grabbed her finger and wouldn't let go, I could tell she had to struggle and pull hard to free it. She said that he normally never does that and speculated that he was trying to show off for me. Is that likely, or a cause for concern? I was feeding him peanuts but they were still in the shell and I gave him plenty of room to grab them. He took them gently from me and didn't lunge or try to bite me.

5) The birds nails are really long and sharp. Because of that, he doesn't like to step up for his owners unless they have a fleece blanket on their arms. They said they think its because he doesn't like how they say "ow" and react when he scratches them. They tried clipping his nails once but the very sight of the clipper made him freak out and they think his previous owner may have hurt him with the clippers. I really feel like it'd benefit me to have his nails more blunt so I can teach him to stand on my hand and let me hold his foot in place. Is taking him to the vet my best option? They have one of those concrete perches for him but he barely stands on it in his cage. Do those normally work? Any other ideas to wear his nails down?

6) Finally, my biggest concern is how he will scream for attention. They told me he doesn't do contact calls at dusk and dawn, but will scream once all of the humans leave him alone in the living room. I understand he just misses his flock, but it also appears that they taught him to do this because sure enough, he screams and they instantly go back into the room to quiet him. Is this easy to break? What's the best method? She said he does eventually stop after a minute or two if no one comes and gets him. I've heard of putting birds in their cage for time out and covering them until they stop screaming, but how would I do this if it requires that I go into the room first to move him into the cage, thus giving him what he wants?

7) Right now the female owner is a stay at home mom, so the bird is out from 9am-10pm and that's when he goes to sleep. My schedule would be me working 9-5 on weekdays, so the bird would be in his cage during those times. My boyfriend will probably work from home some days, but for now ill assume he will be in his cage. Then I plan on having him out from 6pm-12am on weekdays when I'm home, and out all day on weekends. Do birds change their schedules easily?

8) Do they use the sun to regulate their sleep? Is it reasonable to want him to be up until midnight when I go to bed? I have a very large sunroom that is like a second living room, and it has one wall open to the main living room. Is that a good room for him as long as his part of the room doesn't get direct sunlight? The sunroom is heated and cooled along with the rest of the house so there aren't extreme temperatures. I also plan on keeping one of his stands on the main living room.

I think that's everything. I included a few pics I took today for your viewing pleasure

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Greenclaws]

Also I talked about a lot of things you asked about screaming and schedules on a post I wrote recently. You might like to check it out Solving Parrot Problems: Videos and descriptions with different parrots by Caitlin Rice: Training Guide Part One!
He sounds pretty awesome and tbh it's a lot to ask for a new bird to readily accept going out into the busy world. I know people do it but you have to watch and see how comfortable they are in new places. It's hard to predict but the fact that ruby is so comfortable with children is a huge plus. He sounds pretty gregarious and social, just don't rush things too fast. Make sure you feel totally confident before going on outings.

Pic#1 is where he likes his butt scratched I'm guessing? I'd avoid that response bc he could get possessive of ppl who pet him that way. Also he looks like a cross between a greenwing and a scarlet macaw.

You're right, he is a ruby macaw which is a greenwing and scarlet hybrid. And I should have been more clear. I had no intention of getting a bird and immediately taking it to a public place to meet strange people. I just meant that I ideally would like a bird who isn't intimidated by unfamiliar people, especially since our house has a lot of visitors. I would make sure my macaw had complete trust in me first, then I would very slowly start introducing my friends into his life, by having them give him treats under my supervision. Only after he showed a general interest or acceptance of new people (because hey, they have treats!), and only after he made it clear that he enjoyed going for walks outdoors with me, would I ever try combining both elements. I have just seen macaws and other parrots at places like Venice beach who you can tell clearly love attention from all people. If my bird never got to that point, I'd never push him. My main point in asking that question was to see whether all birds have the potential to become social in public, or if those birds who I've seen have just been rare exceptions. And also to see if that socialization is something that can easily be learned later in life, with enough patience and positive reinforcement, or if its difficult after they reach a certain age.

 

[Greenclaws]

Out of all of my questions, the one I want to address the most is the screaming. How can I get him to not scream every time we leave the room and he feels left behind? All of the methods I've read of require being in the room to implement them, which would give the bird what he wants in this case. The current owners said he only does it when he's out on his playstand. His cage is in a different room and he only goes to it to sleep, so when they put him in there and leave, he doesn't scream. They think he just does it on the play stand because he thinks its bird-attention time. This would be the only deal breaker for my household, if we couldn't figure out a way to break him of the habit, and he screamed every time I left to just go to the bathroom or let the dogs out. I know the current owners inadvertently trained him to do this because they get concerned and go to him every time he does it, I just don't know a good training method for breaking him of it. I know the best time to build new habits is in a new environment, so I want to have my game plan figured out and begin implementing it as soon as he's in my house.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[MacawLoverOf3]

Naturally, birds scream to be in contact with other birds. This is natural for them to do but can be hard on our ears. Kalea whistles and I can use that or start our LaLa 'conversations' or any of the other things she says, and use those tools to switch her over from screaming to using our contact calls. A bird that starts screaming when you leave the room is trying to find out if you are still around and if you contact call to them they are less likely to start the screaming so my suggestion is that you would developing your own set of contact calls and every time you leave the room tell him if you will be gone for a little bit or if you are off to work and gone for a while. These guys understand us and if they know what to expect they are less worried that we will not return.

Butt scratching, do not continue that one.

The bird doesn't like to step onto the owner because the bird has sharp nails????? More like the owner doesn't like it and is using that as their excuse to ignore the length of the nails. Sheesh

Don't feed a bird peanuts. Peanuts are grown in the ground and can harbor nasties from the soil. There are better/safer things to offer such as pine nuts. There were 2 recalls on the peanuts recently, why take chances.

Not all birds are going to be comfortable with being out in public especially when someone comes up and pulls a tail thinking it is funny and you did not even know it was about to happen because you and the bird are looking forward and some idiot comes from behind and pulls it. This will happen and it will happen when you are talking to someone and not keeping your eyes on every person within a block radius.

Birds like to be up higher so they can see better what is happening in the area around them, not so much dominance. Shoulder riding, that is something you have to decide if the risk is worth it, especially when that kid pulls the tail. Your face is the closest thing to strike back at and plastic surgery is not cheap. Your house, your rules but don't go screaming at the bird when it happens, especially before you get to know him.

It concerns be what bad habits he has been taught seeing his owner would not release the peanut right away and the poor bird had to fight for it. Not raised in a bird knowledgeable home I have to say.

A lot of issues can be worked with if you have the skills. It is my belief that it is best to go in with an attitude of no expectations from him and just allow him to grow and develop into his own self.

 

[Birdman666]

#1 Sometimes they do this; It's normal. It could very well be because you were there. The way you train a bird to accept lots of people is to get them out an about with lots of strangers, and get them used to it - and have it be a positive experience for them. I took mine to the local park for a few hours each day. Got them used to kids running up to us. People in her face. Lots of folks touching, and pushing her boundaries, stepping up for complete strangers, and letting them love on her...

#2 Not during breeding season. Makes the poor bird horny! (Well it does!)

#3 Height dominance is a myth. Maggie's cage is 7 ft. tall. My playstands are also 7 feet tall. PLUS she's a shoulder bird. (But she's bite pressure trained and does not displacement bite. NO BIRD should be a shoulder bird unless these prerequisites are met!)

#4 I gotcha! You're mine now. Shovel that stuff into my beak.. Maggie does this one with me when I am scratching her head. If I get the spot, she'll grab my thumb and hold onto it until she's ready for me to stop! "Right there! Now don't move, and don't stop til I tell you..." It's entirely normal.

#5 A proper groomer can fix this in five minutes, and it sounds like he needs it badly. Nails need to be done 2-3 times per year. (Whether they like it or not! That's crap. DO IT!)

#6 Screaming is a learned behavior. It can also be unlearned. There are screaming protocols already posted on this site... But you have to be consistent.

#7. Set the routine, and they adjust. Be consistent.

Again, any similarity between me and anyone who actually knows what they are doing is purely coincidental! (I'm a relative newbie. I've only done this about 350 times!)

The real question is how did the bird react to you? What was his personality like? Did you hit it off with him?

 

[Birdman666]

Mine each get four human grade peanuts a day.

You really want to spoil him, watch what happens when you break out the unsalted pistacios! Every bird's favorite food in this household!

 

[Greenclaws]

Wow! So many good points I don't know what to address first. I'm probably missing a lot but ill read all of this over a few times to let it sink in.

First of all, I just brought the peanuts because the owners said it was his favorite food. They are organic unsalted and roasted. Wouldn't the roasting kill any pathogens? He's currently on a seed and nut diet with fresh fruits and veggies. If I get him, I'll try to introduce pellets into his diet. Hopefully he takes them but it may be an uphill battle before he has a more balanced diet.

I definitely plan on getting his nails trimmed first thing. Last thing I need is the poor bird feeling uncomfortable being on me because I keep jumping and saying "ow" every time he moves. I plan on having a local bird shop trim them for me. Afterwards, will having concrete perches keep them maintained? I saw some bamboo perches with pumice(I think?) that got good reviews. Does everyone get regular trimmings for their birds nails or will these keep the points worn down after the initial trip?


In response to your question Birdman, I think Rubin liked me and his owners said he responded to me really well. He didn't hesitate to take peanuts from me and his eyes didn't flash and dilate when he would do it. His nervousness was apparently just from a lack of socialization. They said they rarely ever had guests. I'm pretty sure if I had my guests give him treats whenever they came over, he would learn to like seeing them. I didn't get to hold him or anything because he was clearly nervous and I didn't want to force him into interacting if he wasn't ready. But he quickly got to the point where, with his owner standing on one end of his perch and me standing on the other, he preferred to be right next to me (probably for the treats, but ill accept the attention!) he also did this odd thing where he'd take half eaten peanut shells and throw them at my feet. It was done with a flick of his head so I think it was different from a simple drop, but maybe not. The first time I thought maybe he was sick of the peanuts (I didn't give him that many though), but he would throw them and then stand there and crouch slightly and stare down at me like he was begging. I would pick the peanuts back up and give them to him and he'd eagerly accept them and finishing eating them. Was that his way of inviting more attention from me? Or was it his way of testing me to see if he could get me to do what he wanted?

Concerning the comments about him adjusting to my schedule vs the one he has: his owners are having to rehome all of their pets because they're moving to Belgium since the guy is in the army and has to move for work. He told me his wife recently was out of town for three weeks so the bird had to switch to his work schedule, which meant being in his cage for 1.5 days at a time, and then out for the next 1.5 days that he was off work. If he did this for three weeks without a hitch, is that a good sign? I didn't know if three weeks was enough to judge how a bird would switch to a permanent change in schedule.

Finally, like I said, the main thing holding me back is the screaming. I live with three other people so it would be selfish of me to subject everyone to a bird who screamed nonstop. The comment about the dogs was also a really good point that I didn't think about. Would it be best to move Rubin to the den (where I can close the doors) while I'm doing the distance training? The room has see through French doors which would be ideal for me stepping out of the room but him still seeing me. That way I could step out but still be visible and wait for him to scream and then walk towards him when he stopped. Then I could do the red light green light thing as was mentioned. He also knows several words but apparently doesn't talk much unless his female owner is around. I'd like to eventually teach him a word that he could say if he wanted to know where I was, that would be more bearable than screaming.

Please answer me this to the best of your knowledge: I know every bird is different, but if I set aside an hour every night to do the no-scream training by constantly coming and going from the room, how long would you all say it would take him to reform his behavior, based on your experience? I have no doubt that he would learn eventually, but I can't have him screaming indefinitely for months until he learns to redirect that behavior. It might drive my boyfriend crazy, make my roommates move out, and my dogs lose all their hair from shot nerves by the time that happens. Again, it's not a test of my patience so much as it is my living situation and general concern for my dogs' comfort too. So, any guesstimates at a timeframe? Also any more training tips on that matter? I do think its a good sign that he doesn't do morning and night time contact calling. And I asked the owner if they ever tried training him out of it and they said no, because he usually stops after a minute or two.



I look forward to hearing your responses! Thanks again

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Greenclaws]

Alright, so you live with three other people as well. That makes things a lot more complicated. You asked "should you adopt this macaw" and I will tell you my honest gut reaction would be no. Mostly because Rubin could be a screamer and the environment is very different, which could cause behavior issues like that to be VERY exaggerated.

It isn't hard for birds to adjust schedules so much. I am a night owl and I have all my birds on that schedule, and new foster birds I've taken in have adjusted fine. It's the environment that can be very hard for a bird to adjust to when they are used to a certain flow of things.

I wish I could communicate to you how painful it can be to have a parrot who you feel uncertain about. It is something I wouldn't wish on anybody and that is why I would be honest with you. They live so long, and their anxiety can be so difficult to live with. Screaming is by far one of the worst things to live with. If you have 3 other people, they all have to be 100% as committed and patient and devoted as you are. They have to really love this animal to tolerate that problem while it's being addressed. It isn't something you can schedule in training for; the process I described is something you always have to do on the bird's time. Like if your roommates are home and they hear it, they have to stop what they're doing and act accordingly. An attention screamer can go off on the sound of people just being home. It really, really sucks and when it's non stop for days it is really hard to keep your cool. This is worst case scenario, and if the people are always home and go to him like you said then he could very well freak out in the new environment of strangers who aren't so interested in paying attention to him.

The other thing is that you weren't able to hold him yet. This is something I strongly suggest from my personal experience: you will feel a lot more comfortable and happy about the decision when you are able to hold the bird and really connect with them first. There is a parrot at the rescue I was volunteering with who I WISH I could give you, but this might illustrate what I mean. His name is Merlin (he's a B&G macaw) and he will step up and chill with new people. He will just sit on your lap all day, he will ride on your arm or shoulder out in public at the park or wherever. He's SO good at events. He would be perfect for someone like you. He doesn't scream for attention unless he has gone a really long time (days) without seeing people. He went to a different foster home because the first one couldn't spend any time with him at all.

I guess I'm thinking that there are parrots who need homes that would be perfect for you, where you wouldn't have that voice in the back of your head saying "maybe this could be bad". Rubin could be the right bird, but there are too many "ifs" that would really make your life a living hell if they came true. The guilt of realizing that you may have made the wrong decision is just so painful. You can feel guilty for what your roommates/husband feel and also for what the parrot is going through.

When you meet a parrot who you just know in your heart would be your BFF, you just....know. It would suck if you got Rubin because you felt bad for him and then later met the right bird.

Attention screamers can take a long time to stop that behavior. Months, even a year. And that's with one or two owners who are really committed to the process. Marty has good days and bad days. Today is a bad day and that is probably what is making me respond so candidly. It just makes you mad at the people who used to have him, it makes you mad at the foster homes who didn't care to research problematic screaming, it makes you wish you were deaf so you could just take out a hearing aid and tune it all out. It strains your relationships and it gives you a chronic on edge anxious feeling. But at least Marty is really cuddly with people and he has a soft side. To have a screamer who you feel intimidated to hold and show affection with.....what a nightmare. (BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling intimidated. It is very good that you read the body language and take things at the bird's pace. It just sucks when you don't see that bird come around to you. The new environment without his family can make that take much longer than you might anticipate. You just never know until you get there and it doesn't sound like a risk worth taking)

Thank you soooo much for this advice. This is what I've been leaning toward in gut but then I hear and see stories of birds who are retrained and transform into dream birds in their new homes and I feel guilt and hope for poor Rubin. The owners made if very clear that they understood if I decided not to take him. However I can also tell that they haven't had any other serious inquiries and they're on a very tight timeline because of their moving date (end of July is the absolute latest he can stay.) while I'm concerned about my dogs and people I love with, I think about that poor bird and the fact that he has his whole life ahead of him and I picture how quickly things could go wrong if he went to the wrong household. I just wish the owner had been more clear about his current lack of socialization. I have no doubt that he would grow into the bird I wanted, but you're right, the timeframe and uncertainty of my current living situation isn't ideal. One of my dogs is very skittish at times (she was given to me a little less than a year ago) and for some reason my other dog is fearless unless she hears someone sneeze, in which case she quickly leaves the room for a few seconds before coming back. I'm speculating that "Achoo!" sounds a lot like someone yelling her name, Arjuna! Anyways, my dogs are my babies and as much as I've been dreaming about a macaw, and as much as I would love my bird, my dogs were here first and they honestly will come first before a problematic bird. I really really wanted (and still want) Rubin to work out because I'd much rather adopt a needy bird than buy a baby, but I'm thinking that getting a baby and teaching it the ways of my household might be more ideal. Perhaps I'll give myself another 6 months to find a rescue before I consider breeders. I just wish Rubin was coming from a more knowledgeable home. It's clear that his owners love him and have taken good care of him, but the lack of pellets in his diet, the butt scratching, his overgrown toenails that have been that way for two years, and the nurtured attention screaming all point to a general lack of understanding on their part. It's so sad. I don't want to think about this poor bird being ruined (for lack of a better word) in the wrong environment.

It's a really tough decision either way, but I'm so immensely glad that I chose to join this forum over the others that are available, and that I reached out to you all for advice. I'm leaning toward an unfortunate "no" right now for this particular bird, but I certainly haven't given up on macaws, and I hope you all don't think your advice was in vain. It's all great advice that I will keep close when I consider other birds and when I eventually own a macaw. And Lil Caity, your story of that sweet rescue gives me hope that ill find my dream bird without having to purchase a baby. He/she sounds like such a doll! I would have adopted that bird in a heartbeat!

Rubin's current owners said they would get some videos of him in his natural loving state (since strangers make him nervous and shy) so that I could see his real self. Ill watch those to decide if its worth me trying to meet him again, but ill have to admit that he will have to be my dream bird on video first. I'll mention to the owners that my main problem is the attention screaming. Who knows, maybe they'd be willing to try training him to redirect the behavior in order to make him more ideal for rehoming? I want to at least give him the chance to prove he is a great bird. It could only help, regardless of if I adopt him or someone else does. I'll keep you all posted on my final decision. Thank you!

 

[MacawLoverOf3]

I think with your current living situation, passing on this one might be best. When Kalea or Donovan get loud at times it does not matter that much because the love out weights their volume.

'The lack of pellets in his diet', if he eats a wide variety of fresh foods that to me out does feeding pellets any day. So many people that that pellets are the end all of all end all's. Not. First look at the ingredients in some of them. Corn is used as a filler and not that nutritional let alone all the GMO's and don't think a pellet company is going to give a rats butt if it is GMO or not. Preservatives, not good, Sugars and coloring? Not good at all either. Fresh is best.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Greenclaws]

Also it could be different if you got to know the bird more. It kills me that the time frame is so short. I know what you mean about stories of birds who overcame so much in a new home and it is special to have an experience like that. That's how it is for my greenwing Sebastian. People seriously thought of him like an unpredictable ticking time bomb, and he had such a garbage life before. But I was helping the guy clean his bird room every week for months and I got to know Sebastian through a cage for quite some time before I got to hold him and take him home. I would bring treats in my pocket and sneak goodies to him, I spent extra time cleaning his cage and talking to him, he got to know me at a safe distance for 4 months before I actually held him. But once I did and got him home he was a snuggy baby. The thing that helped was that he went to a whole new environment but it was with familiar people.

Whatever you decide, I don't feel like any time spent responding was wasted. I'm happy to share from what I've learned and felt with parrots. Going to a breeder doesn't always guarantee a clean slate either, which I learned when I got Stevie. It took a year for him to stop biting people because of the way he was weaned early and handled inappropriately in combination with his energy and sensitivity. Like literally from the moment I saw him all he wanted to do was attack hands, and he was just a baby. He was like a piranha and it was so gut wrenching to have a baby like that. But he's good now, he's in my user picture on my shoulder

Edit:
Ps. I forgot to answer the question about the peanut. He was probably throwing them as a way to play with you. I've seen others play that way with toys. It's like playing catch with a ball ^_^

Good points!! I think to at least set my conscience at ease, I'll try to go over there a few more times to spend time with him and try to get to the point where I can hold him. Ill also see if the current owners want to try any no-scream training and see if he makes any progress in the next month. You're probably right that I won't make a connection with him unless I can hold him. At least ill feel better about my decision of he takes a chink out of my ear. haha! But the peanut throwing being a game is just too cute!

Also, I can't PM you because my post count isn't high enough. But I can tell you how to find his listing. Hopefully that's not against the forum rules but if it is, I apologize and can take it down. Anyways, if you search in Atlanta, Georgia's Craigslist "pet" section (under community), search for "ruby macaw" and he should be the only listing. He is located in Dawsonville. His Craigslist pictures aren't the best and kind of make him look like a goofy cartoon. Lol! But I'm sure you'll recognize him!

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Greenclaws]

Well... I messaged the current owner and explained to them my current situation and concern over Rubin's attention screaming. I asked if they'd be willing to try some no-scream training with him and said I'd like to come back and try to get him to step up so we could see how we got along. He got defensive and said his dogs don't mind the screaming, so it shouldn't bother my dogs either, and that the screaming doesn't bother them so they don't think it's a problem. He then told me "good luck finding a quiet macaw" and left it at that.

I really was just trying to express my concern over certain things, not offend anyone. But I feel like attention screaming is different from a random macaw scream, which I would be fine with. My dogs both bark (VERY loudly) whenever people are at the door or walk across our property, but I accept that as a part of dog ownership. But that is different than an animal that screams every time someone leaves the room momentarily. I feel like that behavior, if nurtured, could eventually lead to a bird that screamed every time it wanted a treat, or was jealous that you were spending time with someone else, or anything else under the sun. Am I wrong in this? Isn't attention screaming a problem that most macaw owners want to fix? I'm hoping the owners just got defensive or are just in denial. I'm not ready to give up on finding my dream bird, it just looks like this one wont work out. I think I'll contact a few local rescues and ask them to keep me in mind when new macaws come in. If I could just find a bird who would step up and connect with me, I think it's be a lot easier to think about working on correcting other issues.

Does anyone know of any good rescues and rehabilitators in the metro Atlanta area?

 

[LiL_Caity413]