Sammy on the war path

[lalaLola]

Hi Everyone,
I joined this morning for input from hands on experienced Amazon owners! I adopted Sammy last month and he has been Awesome. Singing, talking, interacting. Loving family mealtimes, (breakfast & dinner) Sitting outside for a few hours every day, his cage is by a window so he can see our back yard at other times. It took a little over a week for us all to acclimate which I thought was really great. Our routine is, after uncovering him in the morning, he likes to sit for ten minutes and look out the window, then call step up, or helllloooo, to come get him for breakfast. He will have oatmeal or warm granola for breakfast. Dinner is about the same, then family time, then step up, (he's tired and wants to go to bed) Been this way for over a month. Then......this morning, he didn't call, but I went to get him, he sat there looking at me, then lunged at me and bit my hand. He finally decided to come out, but as he was on my wrist he lunged up and bit my lip. Ouch! My feelings were hurt more than the bleeding going on. I proceeded to his stand, had the oatmeal in the dish, and bam! Again he bit me while I was twisting on his dish. His eyes were def. flashing and his tail was wild!! So I have been on line most of the morning trying to figure out if I did something to cause this and to no avail. I've read about hormones (he's 6) power struggle, control, but I don't what to think. I'm hoping that when I go home and it's dinner time there won't be blood!! :31: Looking for some advice.

 

[Kiwibird]

This is actually a classic amazon behavior, especially in sexually mature males. Unlike other parrots, amazons have a tendency to become so mentally overstimulated, they lash out without thinking. It's a big reason many people fear them, but when you know how to recognize the "zon rage", you should be able to prevent it in the future Please remember you have done nothing wrong and Sammy does not hate you. He's just like a little kid who got too wound up. The *best* method to use with this 'personality trait' is of course prevention. Watch for signs Sammy is getting too excited (high pitch vocalizations, hissing, pinning eyes, flared tail, rapid movements ext..) and try to calm him BEFORE he looses control of himself. You could put him home to calm down or give him a toy or treat to distract him or simply ignore him until he's playing nice again. Whatever he responds best to. However, once they go over that cliff, they are pretty much feral and in a bad mood. The best way to deal with an already over the edge overstimulated amazon is to handle them on a stick and put them in a calming place (like their cage half covered) to calm their butt down. You use a stick to prevent being bit, and I cannot emphasize enough the importance of training your bird to step on a stick. Even the best trained amazons get in such foul moods at times they will bite. Better they bite a stick than your finger. Best of luck.

 

[lalaLola]

I previously owned from babies, an Amazon yellow front who was 19, and an African Grey, who was 14. Elwood, amazon, would get in a mood now and then, but it wasn't as mean as Sammy seemed today. But I did have them from babies. I'm hoping your advice will work, as it will make me sad if I can't hug and kiss him as usual. Is it true that they get hormonal at this age? I never noticed it in my two guys. I will be going home with my war shield and welders gloves in preparation for our face off!! Kidding, I will however do as you suggest and get a stick, and go forth with a sweet voice and wait for my cue to come hither. And I will, reluctantly. Will keep you posted. Thanks so much!!

 

[Kiwibird]

Amazons typically hit sexual maturity at 5-7 years old and most get hormonal in the early spring (though their first few years of being sexually mature, it can last a long time). Certain individuals get it worse than others too. My BFA gets into pissy moods much more often than the 2 amazons I grew up with did. He's a nice boy 90% of the time but he still acts out on occasion and he doesn't get the response he wants (fear and bossing me around).

Sammy is still very new to you still. He is still unsure how you'll react and is likely testing you a bit to see how you respond. How you handle it in these first few months will set the tone for him. It sounds ridiculous, but sometimes birds end up training you- i.e. they behave badly because it gets them a "positive" response (such as thinking it's funny to see you react to pain, or backing off when they don't want to go up or step up ect..).

I personally have a 0 tolerance policy with Kiwi when he's foul. If he's getting flashy, hissing, pinning- I'll get him with the stick and put him up to calm down before it escalates. I also use a firm and authoritative tone with him when he's being foul and there is not an option to not step up and go have quiet time. It is not acceptable behavior, and I want him to know it. Once he has calmed down, he is rewarded with kisses and gets to come out and play again. He does NOT get punished, rather is provided the opportunity to calm down before there are negative interactions. Along with not allowing aggressiveness, positive forms of communication are rewarded. His behavior has improved dramatically since we first got him because he has learned his boundaries with us and what actions he can take to get what he wants I'm sure if you work with Sammy he will be just fine, and theres no reason once the aggressive behavior has passed that you cannot enjoy cuddling and kissing on him IF he is accepting of that form of contact (many amazons aren't).

 

[lalaLola]

Well I came home this evening and Sammy was pretty quiet. I said hello and closed the blinds so he would have to pay attention to me. He looked at me between his toys and grunted a little, so I gave him a few minutes then went back to get him. Not quite trusting him, but not showing it, I did as you instructed with the stick and he got right on. So I brought him down for dinner, talked to him while we were eating and afterwards put him in his house. Covered him halfway for about an hour then put him to bed. I'm sure he was wondering what was going on, as it wasn't our general routine. He didn't complain. I did feel bad that we didn't interact but as you said he needs boundaries that I enforce, not him, so I'm sure we can work through this just fine. And even if it's not that great I will deal because once the pets land here they don't leave. And I do realize we all have our off days so hopefully he won't have too many!!! Your advice is appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[Taw5106]

I've had mine for 3 months and he's done quite well but I have seen him appear sad and withdrawn, and then this past week he bit me twice, the first bite because I pushed him, the second for no reason. I tell him "No, no bite". Then he looks at me like he's confused but he backs off. He hasn't come out of his cage in the past few days, until today. Like what you did, I let him have his "space" but he will chatter with me and I talk and whistle back. In the morning when I uncover him I open his cage door and it stays open all day unless I leave the room or house so today when he climbed out and kept angling towards me I went to him and he came on my hand, then my shoulder, sweet as pie. It was on his terms but since he was giving all good signs we had a good day. Like the experts on hy his page say, body language and I'm still learning. I was fearful to reach in after the second bite but like others have said, they test to see what they can get away with too. Be patient and don't give up.

 

[lalaLola]

Well, Sammy is coming along. He has been quite friendly and I suspect between the advice given here, and my never ending quest on the internet! I have been putting him to bed earlier, with cage darkening cover, hoping that his shortened days may help. I live on the east coast and it stays lighter longer now. He spends a great deal of time in the outdoor cage as well, so the fresh air and constant bantering with the other birds may be wearing him out as well.
I'm spoiling him to no end and I know he loves it. He didn't get half this treatment and attention from his previous home so this may be helping adjust his attitude, a little. I give him time to look out the window in the morning, and he is starting to yell "Helloooo, Step up" when he's ready to have breakfast and dinner, so we are making progress. He does like my husband, which is good because my previous parrots, scared him. So he can get him out of the cage as well. Which makes him happy : }
Sammy still gets a little grumpy, but I haven't had a bite since my last post. Whew!! Although my ego was damaged more than my hand and lip.
His appetite is better, but food fussy. He's not big on fruit, so I've gotten organic toddler stage 3 fruit and it seems to be working. My vet had also suggested I start the Sunshine factor (red palm) and I can see a difference in his colors. I really appreciate all the feedback from all of you it's very helpful. Have a great weekend, Lola

 

[henpecked]

Oh the "HoneyMoon " is over. he's got used to his new flock and thinks/testing to see if the "Big Bird" is leading the flock. You've gotten good advice from the members. Be incharge and he'll be fine. Welcome to the forum, glad you and Sammy joined up.

 

[Kiwibird]

Happy to hear Sammy is behaving better. Lavishing him with all the love and toys and treats makes him feel like part of your flock, so thats a HUGE part in him behaving (knowing you've accepted him). Hope to get more updates on Sammy as he progresses

 

[lalaLola]

Sooooo, that Sammy is quite the little actor. He was in a mood this morning, but I really didn't notice because he usually has a fanned tail when he sees me, and I try not to reach in right away because he likes to look out the window for awhile before coming out for breakfast. And hesitation has been my first, thought, since getting nailed the last time! Alnd I guess I didn't hesitate enough, bam, there it was. Really Sammy, I said. He just laughed and said "be good". I thought "really?" So I gave him another half hour before breakfast, and he was fine the second time around. Geez if I didn't know better I would swear he was female because I think I get that way myself!! I read on a site called Windy City Parrots, that they have a formula called AVICALM and it supposed to help with the anxiety the parrots are feeling. Does anyone know about this supplement? Or is this just something that takes some time to overcome. I do know that to feel really secure to hug him or smooch him I go into a different room, I read that in unfamiliar surroundings they figure you are their best pal so they deal with it, so true. I'm begin very patient, but sometimes I see him and he makes me sooo happy I could just squeeze the stuffing out of him! Just wondering what, if anything, I may be doing to turn his Mr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde.

 

[Taw5106]

LalaLola, I know it's not funny but I was laughing. Sounds like Sammy has to have his "coffee time" in the morning which is the window like me, lol. I've been reading up on amazon behavior to learn more about them. Buddy is chipper in the morning. I say good morning buddy about 10 times, his tail is always flared in the morning. While saying good morning over and over, I uncover his cage, open the blind for him and give him a piece of popcorn or a seed ball. Buddy purrs too when he's eating and happy. I leave his cage door open while I go start my coffee and feed the dogs. He gets breakfast about 30 mins after getting up but he eats in his cage or on top of his play top. This routine started this way because Buddy didn't want to come out and I didn't want to push him. What if you changed the routine to make him go to you for interaction? Like not open the blind to the window? How does he act if the window is blocked? As for Jekyll and Hyde, I don't think you have to do something to make them act that way, sometimes they just do or at least Buddy does. Great job on patience, I know it's hard.

 

[lalaLola]

Every time I talk to Sammy or start to approach him, his tail is fanned! And I try not to show any fear, an ohhh I am afraid!! So I don't really know if he's happy to interact or thinking I look extra yummy that day!!!

And all the articles that I've been reading and researching, says it's usually a sign of aggression. That especially males in their puberty years are a bit more aggressive at times. Ya think?!?! But for the most part he is sweet. My grandkids are here from over seas and one morning we had plans to leave early for a day trip. Sammy wasn't able to come down to the kitchen for his usual hot breakfast, but did get an extra treat that morning. You think he would REMEMBER this later on in the day when it was dinner time? No, in fact when I came to get him he turned his back to me and growled. Little Brat, how about that Scooby treat you got? Needless to say he didn't want to leave the window, wasn't interested in anything that I had made for him, and ate his pellets, throwing out anything that was associated with the dinner I made. Fine I said, maybe tomorrow you will be in a better mood. His reply, "bye bye now" Ouch, that hurt! He's funny and I do adore him. Just wish I could read him better. Thank you for your reply. Any information is always appreciated and applied! Reluctantly

 

[labell]

I think it takes time to read the body language of your particular amazon. In my experience flashing EYES (pupils pinning) was always a sign you are about to get bit. Many times this is along with tail fanning but not always. My husband calls this "Here's Johnny mode" think "The Shining". This can happen when they are TOO happy and over loaded with good amazon vibes as well as when they are in a bad mood.

My beloved YNA male who passed many years ago would be considered truly vicious to anyone except me and even I got bit a few times when I put myself between him and his intended kill! But he greeted me every morning with tail fanning yelling "momma, I love you!" When he was on the hunt because someone was too close to me his eyes would pin, tail flaring, feathers tight to the body while he ran at the person with murderous intent, he couldn't fly which in his case was a good thing but man could he run and you never wanted to under estimate his reach!

My new "older" YNA Brady who I think is a female, fans her tail, puffs up and then brings up a huge hunk of food to feed me, she either leaves it in her mouth to re-eat but first makes sure I see it in all it's messy gooey glory and that I understand it is just for me! Or she actually puts it on my hand or arm then very daintily eats it off but if you went just by the book it looks like she is about to bite me but this hasn't happen yet, I never fool myself that it won't happen. Even when they love you they can love you with too much passion!

My hybrid YN/BF baby Mojo is a whole nother story, loves me to the exclusion of everyone else, we are working it out but I have frankly never seen this in a baby so young. My baby/young YN Mystic is a sweetheart and while we are still teaching/training/socializing even she has her I just don't want to be messed with moments. They are each different and I think you just have to stay on your toes and watch behavior over all.

I keep my amazon's away from my face for the most part but it's better to accept that you will get bit at some point living with amazon's. It hurts for sure but no one has died from a bird bite. I know not a lot of comfort when your finger is bleeding and throbbing but true nonetheless.

 

[lalaLola]

Little Sammy boy is enjoying the great outdoors!! I put a nice big cage outside, under an umbrella, at the shady part of the back yard, and have been bring him outside on the weekends. He just loves it. He talks to the neighbors, watches the birds, yells to the grandkids in the pool, and dunks himself in his own plate of water. As soon as I ask if he wants to go outside, he flutters and puffs up, saying Step Up Sammy. I don't think he has ever been outside. He certainly takes in every minute. Some times it's hard to convince him it's time to go inside!!
I know some people have aviaries, and their birds are out all the time, but I do worry about the mosquitoes. So I went to the camping store and bought a mosquito net, which he really doesn't like over his cage, but......I live at the Jersey Shore and those little buggers are everywhere. But even though he's encased in netting he still enjoys his time out. We are still getting used to each other, and he does still get an attitude sometimes, but I figure I'm not pleasant all the time myself. I've ordered an indoor play tree, I'm hoping he will like that. I just have the round metal stand that he sits on most of the time when he's out. He does walk around but he's quick and into everything. Thanks for reading, hoping you are all enjoying your little buddies as much as me!!!

 

[lalaLola]

labell, I have learned that lesson of keeping the Amazon away from your face. He already made a significant scar on the outside and inside of my lower lip. We were being nice to each other and I leaned in to hug him and bam. I bleed for a few hours. I was very upset. And didn't really know what to do, except put him in his cage. Since then I don't lean in!! He always fans his tail when he sees me and sometimes his eyes flash, but since it is always the thing, I didn't think any thing of it. Lesson learned
So yes, I am trying to "read" him but most instances are not what I'm reading or hearing. So your advice is GREATLY appreciated.

 

[SandyBee]

Aww yes the Honeymoon is over. My amazon is 37 and was with us for over a year before he nailed me. It was the start of the hormones this year. He has been with us for almost 2 years now. He is the sweetest boy most of the time but has been testing me quite a bit this year.
One of the biggest things that helps for us is I make him come to me for things. I don't take him out of his cage, I open his door and if he wants attention or food besides what's in his cage he has to crawl/walk/fly to me.
I walk away when he gets moody. I've learnt to use a towel wrapped around my arm under a jacket if I go to put him in his cage when he doesn't want to. He usually goes on his own but as Henpecked said they do like to challenge and see who the flock leader is. Take no GUFF! @

 

[henpecked]

The "Honeymoon is over"....here's my take on things, you may do with it what you wish. I'm not going to qualify by listing my experience with this behavior in amazons. it's normal behavior.It's taken this long for him to see where he stand in the over all scheme of things.In the beginning he needed protection/safety,easy to get along with, unsure. He started making small decisions and got his way. A wild flock of amazons has a "king and queen" for lack of better term. If it's a small flock with no breeding pairs then a single bird will rule the flock. Natural selection has every bird try to be the flock leader. The better leaders win the battles and the "King and Queen" win the nest site. The best genes (best birds) lead the flock (basically to their advantage/benefit).The same is also true in your flock. That's important for you to realize. There's a power struggle going on and you"re not aware of it. DON'T be so "available", Make each interaction end with him wanting more of your attention, instead of him biting to say "I've had enough". Pick your battles and plan to win them. Take charge and make decisions for him. Start small, win winnable situations. None of the amazons mind being a follower as long as they know the best bird is leading the flock. If the lone zon is calling the shots,,,chaos is the result. They need limits and boundaries and they're fine with that. See the world though their eyes now. Hope that bit of insight helps, be the flock leader and don't be a "subject". Confident,outgoing and fun but in-charge of pets,head rubs, what ever you call it. Only give a second or two and quit. You'll be able to tell when the change comes.

BTW, it sure is nice having these great amazon parronts with their great advice.

 

[SandyBee]

So well said, it's like a small child, give an inch they try and take the mile
I watch body language, but I still do whatever it was I was going to do
Just means sometimes I use a little more protection. The great thing about amazons are they are super smart.once they figure out that your in charge they are loyal and loving you for it.

 

[SandyBee]

Oh also what Henpecked said about leaving him wanting more is so true. When Bosley gets his amazon on and I ignore him and walk away within a minute he's yelling mom for me to come get him lol and if I don't he'll fly to find me and land on my shoulder being all mushy.

 

[lalaLola]

I'm excited about this great advice I'm getting, but it is easier said than done at times. He's just so cute and gives me so much joy that it's hard to walk away when he gets feisty. And I do see the point, I feel a little guilty. I don't want him to feel like I don't like him any more or think he's going to another home. I know that sounds crazy but it does get turned around to being my fault! Sammy has been so good, which I probably shouldn't put that out there) I bought him one of those trees to play on, but had my husband cut a little piece off so he wouldn't be high than me. I read that somewhere. So he seems to enjoying it. I'm sure his hormones will show up again and I'm trying to read him and getting a little better at it. His tail still flares but not to the extreme that it was sooooo, I believe all your advice is paying off. Thank you ��