Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

[Christinenc2000]

Of course, the real first question is, is it truly the stated hybrid? Knowing what I know about hybridization, this is always the true starting point, as people almost always get it wrong the first guess. The answer I just gave assumes the hybrid is as stated.

Hi Chris,
That I don't quite know, I'm not into Hybrids as basically I just stay within
the basic parrots, the Grey, BFA, Senegal, major Mitchel ( passed away 2011 at age 68), a red factor, and Albino Budgie. All which we own.

However my sister has 3 Conures and had her stop by and have a look at
this bird at the store, also had a good friend of mine stop by there tonite as well. I told them both that the store had what is called a senni/ conure cross.....there reaction ( like mine at first) was no way...not possible.

Well later ( a little while ago) I asked...well what did you think. My sister was like, uhhh, from the front and side you'd swear you were looking at a g senni with a long tail and different feet ( I didn't notice the feet), but then it looks like a conure, sorta, as well...strange looking bird she said..she didn't know what it was....her reply was as everyone else, looks like a cross....but it can't be she says, a strange mutation maybe??.

Then my friend calls me and says, wow, That's an odd bird, looks senni, yet looks conure, can't tell which it's supposed to be. he Said " My guess is someone tried an experiment in genetics somehow....Heck I don't know on this one"

It's quite a mystery !

To bad they could not take pictures for you.

 

[chris-md]

YES! I know about that with orchids (well, rudimentarily, at least). Last year, I bought an Oncidium/Sarcochilus hybrid! I can't wait till I get flowers on this baby - what will they look like???

Would be interesting! However, unfortunately Your plant is mislabeled. Saurcos and Oncidium are too far apart. Oncidium grow on a rhizome, whereas Saurcos don't. Wholly incompatible. It's more likely you'll see a hybrid of a Saurco with a Phal (moth orchid). If you post s pic of the plant I'd be happy to guide you a bit more in identification

 

[Anansi]

Very interesting reading in this thread! Loving it! Trish and Chris, please continue on.

 

[chris-md]

Your very knowledgeable in genetics, I admire that and find your posts very interesting. Good field of study. Myself I build aircrafts (stealth) and helped build two of the space shuttles as well as work on Nuclear engineering. I work from home now. Had enough government stress.

Let me throw a question your way. Because I find this all very interesting.
What if there was a hybrid on the side of a specific conure that was breed consistently for a few years to then acquire a specific characteristic in it's genetics to suddenly become possible mating/breeding with a Senegal to which it is then possible to obtain a desired outcome?

For example to mate with this one, then mate with that one with the offspring, then that offspring is mate with such and such to which it is now compatible then to a Senegal with that offspring?

Wouldn't changing the lineage a few times change the dna structural genetic makeup and then in turn which was never possible before becomes possible?

Sorry....just love learning new things. It's Fascinating!!

Sorry gang for dragging thread out, but it's just interesting. I'm one that likes to know How something happens, why something happens, what is the origin of what makes it happen and etc.

I wish! I actually barely passed genetics, I know more about ecology and speciation It's a combination of plant science undergrad and aquatic ecology masters. Whatever clarity I have in genetics is purely in the context of these two realms. Never cared for genetics. I'm happy to let Trish be the genetics educator here

In my less than learned opinion on the matter. What you describe is theoretically possible but highly improbable. And definitely not in a breeding setup. It would take millions of years, and most importantly, their habitat range must overlap significantly. From there a whole host of natural selection stars must align that would make it highly unlikely to actually occur.

 

[chris-md]

Trish, help me out here, I'm a bit lost. I though meiosis, the process by which daughter cells are created that have half the chromosome count of the parent cells, was exclusive to creating gametes (sperm and egg). Meiosis is also occuring at the point of fertilization? The unzipping of the DNA to allow for union I'm not clear would fit the definition of Meiosis. In humans each sperm/egg already has 23N complement (no pairs because of meiosis). You're saying that during fertilization, the resulting [blastocyst? Can't remember term] spends time at 11.5N?

Can you clarify for me?

Ugh, my head hurts now. it's too early for this. I need to go sell hotels now...

 

[Hawk]

Oooooo! I am SO busting to write an essay on how DNA is structured and base-pairs and recombinant RNA! Sadly, it would take far more than the forum allows one person to write and would bore the contour feathers off most of our flock.

DNA (and genes) are made up of pairs of chemicals (called 'bases') that are designed to chemically attract each other and lock together when they meet. This is what keeps the DNA molecule so stable and why species remain so true to form. Changes in the pairs structure (mutations) are most often not viable and so no offspring results. VERY occasionally, a change in the base-pair structure (usually the order in which they occur) can happen in a way that doesn't change the overall shape of the molecule but which will result in some 'strange' features being observed in the offspring. This is how albinism, melanism and any number of other odd expressions of the normal situation arise.

When the reproductive cells of male and female meet (sperm and egg), an unusual process called meiosis occurs. This involves the unwinding of the DNA molecule from each cell (sperm and egg) and its reconstitution by meeting with its opposite half. That is, half the info from the male cell recombines with half the info from the female cell making a completely new entity. (Please note: this is a highly simplified account and anyone out there who knows the actual chemistry of what happens, please bear with me, OK?) Anyway, that's how we get offspring. Half the stuff from Mum and half the stuff from Dad.

For this to happen, you have to have a perfect mesh between the two halves of the DNA molecule. That means the base-pairs on one have to line up and lock together with those on the other. If there's a gap or too many pairs on one half, there can't be a proper match and nothing can happen. (Again, highly simplified but basically what happens). The best analogy (aside from the cogs-on-a-gear one) I can think of is two long combs that can fit together and interleave their teeth. If you take two identical combs, this is easy to achieve. If you take two different brand combs, you won't get a perfect meshing together because the teeth are different sizes or different in number or spacing. Can you picture that?

So, that's what happens when you get two different species attempting to mate.

Even if a pair of birds from different species would mate (and that's not a given for many reasons), their DNA can't mesh together because it's too different. No amount of breeding and breeding and mutation can change that. Each time reproduction occurs, a perfectly faithful copy of the parents' DNA is made so that the essential structure (ie. that which determines a species) is maintained. For this reason, you can't 'breed out' the essential pattern of a species' DNA. The fact that the two families we're discussing here originated on different continents leads me to think it's even more remote to think a hybrid could be produced between them.

One last point. When animals breed, certain triggers are required to stimulate attraction and courting behaviour. These can include colouration, feather patterns (eg. long tails, breeding plumage), bill shape, song (especially a specific mating song, such as bower birds employ) and stage-making (again, like bower birds). This is another reason I highly doubt two such different species would even want to breed together: the correct triggers for sexual attraction are simply not there.

I dunno if this helps or not, but it's the reason I'm still puttin' all my feathers on the mutation idea.

Wow Trish ! That's a brilliant post ! ( In my British accent) Absolutely brilliant!

I understand and can picture the meshing and structure required in the combs, Good example!!

From the beginning I had my doubts that it was even possible when I first seen this bird. But leaves the question of " what the heck is it?" As about 60 others ( locally) That have seen this bird and are searching the web and researching to find an answer, lol, I'm one of them, as it Baffles me as well.

A few people came up with the conclusion that it definitely is not a cross with a conure. But has looks a bit like a Caique , but still not able (anyone for that matter) positively confirm that it's a Caique species of some sort. it's a tab bit bigger than a senni, a bit bulkier, but almost exact Identical senni markings, except for the eyes and tail, feet are somewhat different from a senni. The eyes are almost exactly just like a Caique, rather than a Conure. The large white ring around it. But the eye itself is yellow gold with black iris like a senni. That threw me off. The tail is as long as a ring neck. Sooooooo, I have yet to find any bird with a bright green plumage with the yellow orange wing markings on the upper wings that the seeni's typically have . And the V shaped orange breast....That resemble this bird.

It's really baffling Trish. I've been searching every single species of small to medium parrots to find something that I've never seen or heard of that match this bird, so far I'm coming up empty handed and is driving me bonkers!!!

And I too am leaning towards some sort of Mutation in this bird, and Must be a mutated Senegal....That's the ONLY logical explanation in my opinion.
I'm Just not that type of person that sits back and says " so what". I have a thirst to know how, why, where did it come from, and etc....it's just fascinating! And Mind boggling too !!! Thanks for the wonderful post. That was very informative.

 

[Hawk]

Your very knowledgeable in genetics, I admire that and find your posts very interesting. Good field of study. Myself I build aircrafts (stealth) and helped build two of the space shuttles as well as work on Nuclear engineering. I work from home now. Had enough government stress.

Let me throw a question your way. Because I find this all very interesting.
What if there was a hybrid on the side of a specific conure that was breed consistently for a few years to then acquire a specific characteristic in it's genetics to suddenly become possible mating/breeding with a Senegal to which it is then possible to obtain a desired outcome?

For example to mate with this one, then mate with that one with the offspring, then that offspring is mate with such and such to which it is now compatible then to a Senegal with that offspring?

Wouldn't changing the lineage a few times change the dna structural genetic makeup and then in turn which was never possible before becomes possible?

Sorry....just love learning new things. It's Fascinating!!

Sorry gang for dragging thread out, but it's just interesting. I'm one that likes to know How something happens, why something happens, what is the origin of what makes it happen and etc.

I wish! I actually barely passed genetics, I know more about ecology and speciation It's a combination of plant science undergrad and aquatic ecology masters. Whatever clarity I have in genetics is purely in the context of these two realms. Never cared for genetics. I'm happy to let Trish be the genetics educator here

In my less than learned opinion on the matter. What you describe is theoretically possible but highly improbable. And definitely not in a breeding setup. It would take millions of years, and most importantly, their habitat range must overlap significantly. From there a whole host of natural selection stars must align that would make it highly unlikely to actually occur.

Hey Chris, your doing a great Job, Speciation is quite neat. I too didn't fare well in my genetics class in college, basic core class. Chromosome Y and N and all that..I didn't know why I had to take that, doesn't help build an aircraft or space shuttle. Oh wait, I put a rose in the exhaust to make it go faster and smell nicer. LOL.

Trish is doing a great job as well, very informative.

So bottom line is we either have a species not typically found in any bird store that was somehow brought into the states...or.....we have a mutated species that makes it hard to really tell what it is. Right?

Funny too, the guy that brought it in is a native of India. Living in Detroit, and said that his nephew owned the bird originally but passed away.
The bird originated from a breeder around the Detroit/ Ann Arbor area/Oakland area that was shut down for apparently illegal operations. I don' know the details, but makes it a bit suspicious as this bird may have been a smuggled species that is not on the acceptable list of imported parrots if there even is one or was one. Maybe a rare breed that was never allowed into the States or a near extinct one that was smuggled into states. I don't really know, I'm pulling stings here. The bird is near 12-15 years old apparently. (estimating of when the guys nephew gotten the bird.) It may make sense as border control before 9/11 was pretty lax then. It would have been easy, even through Canada.

 

[Roanoke]

Oh gosh,I can't wait to see pictures! The suspense is growing!

 

[Doublete]

But the people that know genetics- if a zebra and a horse are possible
Isn't a Senegal and a conure technically possible?

 

[chris-md]

But the people that know genetics- if a zebra and a horse are possible
Isn't a Senegal and a conure technically possible?

Nope. Horses and zebras are both in the genus Equus (Latin names: Equus callabus and Equus zebra respectively). Same genus, different species. This is an interspecific hybrid, and not uncommon. Even natural hybrids exist among different species

Senegals are in the genus Poicephalus (Latin: Poicephalus senegalus); where as conures are either pyrrhura or Aratinga (except the Patagonian conure). Different genera, so it would be intergeneric hybrid. Rare in animals.

Basically, on the genetical tree, equines diversified much more recently, making them more closely related to each other . Birds have been around, if you believe the theories, soon after the dinosaurs died off (fancy way of saying they evolved from dinosaurs). This extra time on earth lets them diversify more, and become more distantly related and less likely to be able to hybridize (ie they become reproductively isolated)

 

[Kalel]

Well, here's a possible scenario that I'd like to offer. I have read all of your very interesting and informative posts and at the very least even if we never get our question answered, I must say I have enjoyed the educational content of this thread! I think based on what I have read above that most of us think that this must be a random mutation, or some rare breed smuggled into the US that nobody has seen before, or some kind of Senegal/conure hybrid (however unlikely the last scenario is). Let me use a rough example to illustrate another scenario that I don't think anyone has presented yet.

So, taking a Liger as an example. If someone were to see a Liger, they may think "Wow! It looks like a Lion but is like twice its size and has a giant skull similar to a bear! Could this be a hybrid between a Lion and a Bear??" You may look at this animal and say, trust me, if you saw the size of this thing you would know it's not a normal lion. It MUST have mated with something much bigger than itself, such as a bear. This person may totally overlook the fact that a lion and tiger cross is more likely than a lion/bear cross (forgive the far fetched example-I know a bear and lion are totally incapable of breeding, but just bear with me for a few more seconds). Now a lion/tiger cross which is a cross of two similarly sized cats results in a cat that looks like a lion (or tiger for that matter) but has exaggerated characteristics which in this case is massive size mainly.

What if instead of a senegal/conure cross we have a senegal crossed with another poi or African species which is closer in relation to a poi and could theoretically reproduce and give us a bird that looks like a senegal but has some exaggerated characteristics ie very long tail feathers, eyes and feet look different? Kinda like the Liger resembles a small bear in size even though there is no bear involved at all, this bird may have characteristics that resemble a conure. I think IF this is a hybrid, then this would be more likely than a senegal/conure. I hope my fantastical example makes sense

 

[RavensGryf]

Interesting Kalel . I'm with those who are waiting impatiently to see a photo on Thursday... Of whatever it is!

The African Pois have such a different head shape and beak size than a conure with a similar sized body such as a Sun.

 

[Rockford]

But what African parrot species have a long tail?

...is it Thursday yet?

 

[Hawk]

Well, here's a possible scenario that I'd like to offer. I have read all of your very interesting and informative posts and at the very least even if we never get our question answered, I must say I have enjoyed the educational content of this thread! I think based on what I have read above that most of us think that this must be a random mutation, or some rare breed smuggled into the US that nobody has seen before, or some kind of Senegal/conure hybrid (however unlikely the last scenario is). Let me use a rough example to illustrate another scenario that I don't think anyone has presented yet.

So, taking a Liger as an example. If someone were to see a Liger, they may think "Wow! It looks like a Lion but is like twice its size and has a giant skull similar to a bear! Could this be a hybrid between a Lion and a Bear??" You may look at this animal and say, trust me, if you saw the size of this thing you would know it's not a normal lion. It MUST have mated with something much bigger than itself, such as a bear. This person may totally overlook the fact that a lion and tiger cross is more likely than a lion/bear cross (forgive the far fetched example-I know a bear and lion are totally incapable of breeding, but just bear with me for a few more seconds). Now a lion/tiger cross which is a cross of two similarly sized cats results in a cat that looks like a lion (or tiger for that matter) but has exaggerated characteristics which in this case is massive size mainly.

What if instead of a senegal/conure cross we have a senegal crossed with another poi or African species which is closer in relation to a poi and could theoretically reproduce and give us a bird that looks like a senegal but has some exaggerated characteristics ie very long tail feathers, eyes and feet look different? Kinda like the Liger resembles a small bear in size even though there is no bear involved at all, this bird may have characteristics that resemble a conure. I think IF this is a hybrid, then this would be more likely than a senegal/conure. I hope my fantastical example makes sense

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their interest in this long thread. It wasn't my intention to make it this long. But I must say and agree that this is the most educational and learning thread I have ever read since I joined parrot forums. This thread is remarkable and has great feed back from all the great people of parrot forums. As the British ( my wife would say), very well, carry on then.

Kalel, it's a great theory and love your example.
So far many that have seen the bird have concluded that it must not be a Conure if crossed. It appears sort of like a Caique...but must be something more closer to the make up of a Senni. I haven't put my finger on it yet.

Mutation is a high probability, still that is kind of like going back to what you said about horse and Zebra, though theoretically for those two, it is possible. But a senni and conure, doesn't carry much weight. The senni it seems and is agreed, is seen in this bird, it's recognizable. But what ever the possibilities that the other look of this bird has to be a species more closely in conjunction with the make up of a senni. That which I haven't yet a clue.

I was wondering if say an isolated flock of senegals was primarily female, then say that flock would rely on survival of the species I would presume and maybe mate with a close species to that of itself.

 

[kq_fan]

Are you sure the Senegal conure hybrid isn't a cactus conure? maybe?

 

[Hawk]

Are you sure the Senegal conure hybrid isn't a cactus conure? maybe?

It's similar, but no....chacteristics are different. Many however were thinking it to be more of a cross of a Red-bellied parrot. it's typically the same size,
and from basically same area as the Senegal. Genetically it might even be a more closer match. The characteristcs are more towards this bird. My thoughts and a few others anyway, but not sure still if it's possible.

I'm picking up our new baby around 4pm. And may even bring this bird home as well. Seriously Thinking about it.

 

[Rockford]

It's similar, but no....chacteristics are different. Many however were thinking it to be more of a cross of a Red-bellied parrot. it's typically the same size,
and from basically same area as the Senegal. Genetically it might even be a more closer match. The characteristcs are more towards this bird. My thoughts and a few others anyway, but not sure still if it's possible.

I'm picking up our new baby around 4pm. And may even bring this bird home as well. Seriously Thinking about it.

That hybrid wouldn't have a long conure like tail though.

 

[Kalel]

It's similar, but no....chacteristics are different. Many however were thinking it to be more of a cross of a Red-bellied parrot. it's typically the same size,
and from basically same area as the Senegal. Genetically it might even be a more closer match. The characteristcs are more towards this bird. My thoughts and a few others anyway, but not sure still if it's possible.

I'm picking up our new baby around 4pm. And may even bring this bird home as well. Seriously Thinking about it.

That hybrid wouldn't have a long conure like tail though.

Yes, we would all think so, right? However, sometimes hybrid species have a characteristic that neither one of the original parent species has. Perhaps, when you cross these two particular birds, you get a much longer tail than either the mother or father had. Who knows?

So interesting! I wonder if we will ever get a definite answer?

 

[RavensGryf]

So where are those pictures everyone's waiting for?! Hurry up and take some and post them Michael .

 

[Kiwibird]

I am also anxiously awaiting these photos! But I know you have a new baby to get settled (maybe 2) so I'm guessing we'll all be waiting a little longer

And PLEASE don't forget pictures of your new budgie too! I know I want to see him/her!