Pros & Cons on clipping wings?

[noblemacaw]

I really enjoyed the video. It helped me see other species flying skills. It is amazing how differently different species fly. To me the African Grey looked like a flying potato LOL. The flight skills were very good for the AG but the body structure, wing span and short tail really shows how differently the AG flies compared to my RFM.

I have had babies come to me clipped. Every breeder I worked with fledged the baby and let them gain flight skills before they clipped the feathers. After they came home and adjusted to the environment and me I didn't clip the feathers and let them be fully flighted.

Valentino my RFM is the only baby I left fully flighted coming from the breeder. Wendy and I talked about this at length because it is her practice to give the babies who are being shipped a wing clip "just in case". She understood why I wanted Valentino to not be clipped and I understood the risk of not having the baby clipped.

For me clipping or not clipping is a individual thing. Depending on the person, depending on the species, depending on training, depending on flight skills, depending on safety issues. All this comes into play for my decision.

For example I did extensive research on the RFM before I decided if this species was a good fit for me. Over and over I found information about how uniquely the RFM flies. Their flying skills rival every parrot because of their ability to totally manipulate how they fly. I have never had a parrot able to fly backwards, sideways or able to hover in place. I feel the ability to fly is important to a RFM and to clip a RFM's wings takes away confidence and affects them mentally. This is what I believe personally.

I also have my home set up for flighted parrots. Mihijo, Diego and Joaquin were not clipped and I was able to keep them safely flighted. I also had each parrot harness trained for when I took them outside.

Because I did not have Valentino clipped after the first few days of adjustment I began recall training right away. I will admit I was nervous having a new parrot flighted which is why I worked so hard with recall right away.

I also did not realize parrots have to LEARN TO FLY DOWN. I always thought that was a skill they just knew. I took me a weekend (about a day and half) to teach Valentino how to fly down to me. This is a skill a flighted parrot must have. In case he was to escape outdoors and end up in a tree high above I can tap my forearm and command Valentino to "fly down to me" and he now has the confidence to do so because he has this skill.

There are some challenges with having a flighted parrot in the home. For me I cannot go to another room upstairs or downstairs without Valentino flying from his tree to find me. When Valentino is not caged I cannot go to the bathroom by myself and I do not cook when he is out. Every toilet seat in the house is covered with the lid down.

Valentino came to me a very confident baby because of how well he was raised and that I kept him flighted. I admit I love watching Valentino fly in my home. It is great pleasure when he decides a friend is alright and will fly to them on his own when he chooses.

I believe it takes a dedicated person to live with a flighted parrot. It does take training and the home needs to be prepped for it with lifestyle changing to for flight to be safe for the parrot. It is a personal choice what works successfully for you might not work for the next person.

Here is a picture of when Valentino was still a a baby flying to me when I called him to me so he could take his sink bath. First of all this picture was taken a year ago and I was 70 pounds heavier. I don't even look like my drivers licence picture anymore.

 

[Hawk]

Great video.....Flight recall is my issue right now, and need to spend more time with Poppie as she's the one that likes to fly as well as My grey. My other Amazon was a recent rescue and they clipped her wings and treated her quite badly. Made a mess of her, so it's going to take some patience with her. My Senni will fly very short distances then climbs down, he prefers to walk all over the place. I've been torn on the issue with clipped wings, as I love the beauty of an unclipped bird, however losing Jackie, My harrier Hawk to an unexpected turn in her flight training to catch her own food turned fatal. She took a wrong turn at high speeds and crashed into the pine trees, breaking her neck. Was awful and sad, You feel so helpless to do anything. So That's the part I can't shake, the fear of that happening again to one of my parrots. Poppie gave me a scare a couple weeks back or so, she flew right into the window and lay on her side afterwards. She has been quite good at flying around the house and lands sometimes clumsily. But she checked out fine by the Vet. 6 1/2 years and first time she's done that.
So you can see my concerns here and being torn on clipping. I don't want to, but for the sake of safety I was considering it. But I'm open to better training techniques where I may be missing something.

Thanks, Hawk. I remember how that video made my jaw drop when I first saw it, so I share it every once in a while. It was instrumental in making my own decision about clipping.

I am so deeply sorry for the loss of your harrier hawk. I can only imagine the heart stopping shock of such sudden grief. A dear friend of mine, also on this forum, lost one of her birds in a similar fashion. Though her situation happened indoors with one of her parrots. That tragic incident understandably led to her deciding to clip the rest of her parrots. Heck, when she told me that story it made me seriously consider clipping Bixby! (He was just a baby at the time, newly weaned and fledged. Almost a year before I got Maya.)

In the end, however, I opted to keep him flighted. Not out of some unrealistic notion that I'm some kind of bird whisperer whose superior training could prevent any such thing from occurring. Not at all. I was actually very honest with myself. Could it happen to my birds? Of course it could! But in this way I don't see the decision as being much different from how I approach things with my children.

When my eldest son told me he wanted to go and join kids soccer, I knew he might get hurt. As he gets older (he turns 7 next month) the risk to him playing these sports increases. Concussions, broken arms, legs and ribs. I've seen these injuries on the soccer field many times. I've suffered some rough injuries myself in different sports. But I can't keep him in a bubble. If it's something that he really wants to do, all that I can do, as his father, is to prepare him the best that I can. Do my best to make sure that he is as well-equipped as possible, thus lowering the possibility of his harming himself on the field. Or out in life in general. There's some measure of risk every time you take your children outside of the protective cocoon of your home. So you do everything that you can to ameliorate that risk, and then walk outside.

Granted, everyone's idea of "acceptable risk" is different. For me, I allow my fids flighted run of the house... but I balk at outdoor free-flight. Others speak of the joy such free flight brings to their fids, and I watch in wonder at members' videos like lebachu, for instance, whose birds get so much obvious joy out of flying free outside. But I fear for the safety of my ekkies should I ever attempt that because of all of the hawks in my area. Many say to just keep an eye out, but for me it's just not a risk I could abide right now. You know?

So basically, I think it all comes down to what your level of acceptable risk is. We all make such decisions for our children each day. I choose to approach such decisions for my fids in much the same way.

Oh! And as for your work on flight recall, Hawk, what I did was to work intensively on target, flight and recall training in one of the bedrooms of my house. It limited both where they could go and the potential distractions around them as we worked. Bixby didn't get to fly through the rest of my house until he was reliably recall-trained from a variety of angles. Higher elevation to lower. Lower to higher. Awkward angles. The works. Only then did we make the transition to the greater space of the rest of my home. (Maya's recall is pretty much 100% as well... it's just the flight part that still needs work! Hahaha!)

Anansi,

You know, training a Hawk (Jackie, Harrier Hawk) to catch it's food was far easier than training a parrot. Parrots are a bit trickier, technique for hawks is not the same for parrots that's for sure. You see My harrier hawk was a baby that still had it's baby feathers. The way I obtained Jackie was quite a story.
Hawks return to the same nest year after year. There's a nest in a tall oak tree in the middle of the woods behind our house, and you can watch the parents go back and forth and sit in the nest with binoculars from the back porch. back into 2010 spring we had and Ice storm following a snow storm, when it warmed up it was a bit mushy and soft on the ground out there. One day we had very high winds, and noticed the tree was not there with the Hawks nest. It came down. I went out there and tree was leaning not from off the ground, the babies were thrown from the nest. The parents were low in trees near by but probably devastated. 2 of the babies died, the third and last, was just sitting on the ground next to a torn up nest. I took my hat off and placed her in the hat, and looked up at the parents and thought what do I do with your baby?
I've raised a red tailed and a falcon in past and returned it to the wild so I thought why not another. I have a well insulated and heated pole barn, so set up an area there for her, perches and enclosure. She turned into a very sweet hawk. I even risked putting the nest back together for parents and climbed up some 50 to 70 feet up a nearby oak and situated the nest. They hung around for a bit, but didn't use it for a couple years, then last year low and behold they nested in it! Least I think they are the same 2 hawks as they are territorial. Jackie was a bit bullheaded but always watching my response to her wants.
She took longer than normal to fly as she never flew far. But after her molt she was eager to get it on. Caught her fist sparrow, and let her eat it. quite a site. My wife wasn't thrilled to see her catch and kill another bird (wild of course) but I assured her, it's part of nature, and crucial for Jackie's survival and return to the wild. She never got that chance as she was a bit over confident one day and took a sharp swooping turn to catch a bird and crashed into the pine tree. was awful and sad.
Anyway, question.....with parrots, do you use a training device such as a stick, pointer, treat....As I mentioned, they will fly and Poppie is good, just both tend to land where ever and need to train them on suitable landing spots and train them not to land on the things that they shouldn't land on.
Such as birdell missed his landing and into the dishwater he went, covered in suds...Hahaha....lucky it wasn't hot water, as the dishes were done and water had cooled down.

 

[Ann333]

This thread has been very interesting and informative. Doing research, everything I read suggested that only horrible people clip their wings. But a lot of people seem to have very good reasons for clipping. I would like to let Pumpkin be fully flighted, but I'm scared. He's my first bird and it makes me very nervous.

 

[veimar]

Great video, thanks! My birds fly the same way, except I really dunno how to recall train them. Nothing worked for me, but they'd step up and let me take them somewhere if I need to. Only my lovebird somewhat responds to recall, but she comes to me all the time anyway! They never fly into the window or mirrors, and I can tell they really enjoy flying and challenging themselves with all sorts of tricks. I loved the part with flying papers - that happens all the time, as well as chewed up bills on the table!
Asking wouldn't the birds fly into the walls is the same as asking why don't the birds hit the trees when they fly in the forest?
My only bird I absolutely had to clip (he can still fly okay) was my tiel who slammed into the wall right after I got him home. He was 2 y o, never handled, and NEVER let out of cage! He was also never clipped, but had no idea how to fly with a sense of direction and purpose. I had him for half a year, and he is still learning that.
The saddest thing is my new darling budgie Tesla - I just adopted him 3 weeks ago, and he is clipped so short that he cannot fly at all! ( That is so heartbreaking, he sees my others birds fly and jumps off too, and I cannot always catch him before the glides to the floor. I cannot wait until he grows his feathers.
I think there are so much more dangers for clipped birds at home than for fully flighted and experienced ones.

 

[goalerjones]

I'm putting on my flame-proof suit and will enjoy watching the fireworks as this thread "progresses"...

 

[goalerjones]

... First of all

You can't use that in the last paragraph of your post. Sorry. I call fowl...

 

[noblemacaw]

"First of all this picture was taken a year ago and I was 70 pounds heavier. I don't even look like my drivers licence picture anymore"

Why do you call fowl with that sentence? I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding. I do feel so much better with the weight loss. Have about 15 more pounds to go but am very pleased my numbers dropped down to normal range. Even my A1C dropped back to normal and is not even close to the range considered for diabetes. So it begs to differ if I am still considered a diabetic. My doctor and I have debates over that because apparently once diagnosed as diabetic you are always a diabetic.

But I got off topic and I apologize.

 

[Anansi]

...I also did not realize parrots have to LEARN TO FLY DOWN. I always thought that was a skill they just knew. I took me a weekend (about a day and half) to teach Valentino how to fly down to me. This is a skill a flighted parrot must have. In case he was to escape outdoors and end up in a tree high above I can tap my forearm and command Valentino to "fly down to me" and he now has the confidence to do so because he has this skill.

VERY true! Many people don't know this. I certainly didn't with my first parrot, a cockatiel. Like you, I always thought birds just knew. My poor cockatiel, on the rare occasions that he would take flight, would fly to a wall until his head was pressed against it (purposely. He wasn't hitting it hard.), and then rapidly flap his wings to slow his descent as he slid down to the floor. This is how he routinely flew from one side of a room to the other! (Yes, this looked as comical as it sounds.) I wondered at my bird's inability to land. But knowing now what I didn't then, I feel so bad for not having given him the proper tools to get so much more out of flight.

And more than that, so many parronts find themselves unable to retrieve their birds once they've flown up into a tree not because their fid didn't want to come back down to them, (at least, not always) but rather because the poor bird simply didn't know how. They instinctively fly up and away. Flying down is a more difficult skill.

 

[Anansi]

Anansi,

You know, training a Hawk (Jackie, Harrier Hawk) to catch it's food was far easier than training a parrot. Parrots are a bit trickier, technique for hawks is not the same for parrots that's for sure. You see My harrier hawk was a baby that still had it's baby feathers. The way I obtained Jackie was quite a story.
Hawks return to the same nest year after year. There's a nest in a tall oak tree in the middle of the woods behind our house, and you can watch the parents go back and forth and sit in the nest with binoculars from the back porch. back into 2010 spring we had and Ice storm following a snow storm, when it warmed up it was a bit mushy and soft on the ground out there. One day we had very high winds, and noticed the tree was not there with the Hawks nest. It came down. I went out there and tree was leaning not from off the ground, the babies were thrown from the nest. The parents were low in trees near by but probably devastated. 2 of the babies died, the third and last, was just sitting on the ground next to a torn up nest. I took my hat off and placed her in the hat, and looked up at the parents and thought what do I do with your baby?
I've raised a red tailed and a falcon in past and returned it to the wild so I thought why not another. I have a well insulated and heated pole barn, so set up an area there for her, perches and enclosure. She turned into a very sweet hawk. I even risked putting the nest back together for parents and climbed up some 50 to 70 feet up a nearby oak and situated the nest. They hung around for a bit, but didn't use it for a couple years, then last year low and behold they nested in it! Least I think they are the same 2 hawks as they are territorial. Jackie was a bit bullheaded but always watching my response to her wants.
She took longer than normal to fly as she never flew far. But after her molt she was eager to get it on. Caught her fist sparrow, and let her eat it. quite a site. My wife wasn't thrilled to see her catch and kill another bird (wild of course) but I assured her, it's part of nature, and crucial for Jackie's survival and return to the wild. She never got that chance as she was a bit over confident one day and took a sharp swooping turn to catch a bird and crashed into the pine tree. was awful and sad.
Anyway, question.....with parrots, do you use a training device such as a stick, pointer, treat....As I mentioned, they will fly and Poppie is good, just both tend to land where ever and need to train them on suitable landing spots and train them not to land on the things that they shouldn't land on.
Such as birdell missed his landing and into the dishwater he went, covered in suds...Hahaha....lucky it wasn't hot water, as the dishes were done and water had cooled down.

Thank you for sharing the story of that hawk you rescued. I'm so sorry that things turned out as they did, but you gave her more of a life than she might ever have experienced otherwise. And replaced a nest, to boot! Most impressive.

As for your question, I use treats and lots of praise in accordance with the method of positive reinforcement. I used to use a pointer and a clicker as well, and found them quite effective. The only problem was that I eventually got less disciplined about carrying that stuff around with me whenever I was around my birds. So a teaching moment would come up and I would make an exception and just use my finger to point, and an encouraging tone in my voice to indicate that they'd done a good job.

Such exceptions became more and more common, until use of the training implements became the exceptions rather than the rules. So at this moment I don't use them, but I do think them very effective tools when used consistently.

But for the flight recall training, as well as stay put training, I'd definitely suggest working in a smaller room with two plain training perches. Less distractions, and if you do the training between meals they'll be very motivated by the proffered treats. (Not advocating the withholding of food, btw. Just strategically timed training.) The lessons learned there will transfer to what happens outside if practiced consistently enough.

 

[Anansi]

This thread has been very interesting and informative. Doing research, everything I read suggested that only horrible people clip their wings. But a lot of people seem to have very good reasons for clipping. I would like to let Pumpkin be fully flighted, but I'm scared. He's my first bird and it makes me very nervous.

I'm glad to see that this thread has had a positive effect on your view of people who do decide to clip. As I've said before, I definitely prefer keeping my birds flighted. But that doesn't give me the right to look down on anyone else for viewing things differently. We all have reasons for doing the things that we do. And those reasons all feel valid to us. Our common ground? We all love our fids, here.

Great video, thanks! My birds fly the same way, except I really dunno how to recall train them.

You're welcome! Have you ever tried working with your birds in a smaller room without any distractions? Perhaps one at a time, using target training techniques to start?

I'm putting on my flame-proof suit and will enjoy watching the fireworks as this thread "progresses"...

Hahahaha! Don't you jinx this thread! This one's on track to be the most civil one, yet! I'm loving it!

 

[Mango121913]

For everyone behaving.

 

[Hawk]

I'm putting on my flame-proof suit and will enjoy watching the fireworks as this thread "progresses"...

Awwwww, we're being good doobies here...

 

[Hawk]

Anansi,

You know, training a Hawk (Jackie, Harrier Hawk) to catch it's food was far easier than training a parrot. Parrots are a bit trickier, technique for hawks is not the same for parrots that's for sure. You see My harrier hawk was a baby that still had it's baby feathers. The way I obtained Jackie was quite a story.
Hawks return to the same nest year after year. There's a nest in a tall oak tree in the middle of the woods behind our house, and you can watch the parents go back and forth and sit in the nest with binoculars from the back porch. back into 2010 spring we had and Ice storm following a snow storm, when it warmed up it was a bit mushy and soft on the ground out there. One day we had very high winds, and noticed the tree was not there with the Hawks nest. It came down. I went out there and tree was leaning not from off the ground, the babies were thrown from the nest. The parents were low in trees near by but probably devastated. 2 of the babies died, the third and last, was just sitting on the ground next to a torn up nest. I took my hat off and placed her in the hat, and looked up at the parents and thought what do I do with your baby?
I've raised a red tailed and a falcon in past and returned it to the wild so I thought why not another. I have a well insulated and heated pole barn, so set up an area there for her, perches and enclosure. She turned into a very sweet hawk. I even risked putting the nest back together for parents and climbed up some 50 to 70 feet up a nearby oak and situated the nest. They hung around for a bit, but didn't use it for a couple years, then last year low and behold they nested in it! Least I think they are the same 2 hawks as they are territorial. Jackie was a bit bullheaded but always watching my response to her wants.
She took longer than normal to fly as she never flew far. But after her molt she was eager to get it on. Caught her fist sparrow, and let her eat it. quite a site. My wife wasn't thrilled to see her catch and kill another bird (wild of course) but I assured her, it's part of nature, and crucial for Jackie's survival and return to the wild. She never got that chance as she was a bit over confident one day and took a sharp swooping turn to catch a bird and crashed into the pine tree. was awful and sad.
Anyway, question.....with parrots, do you use a training device such as a stick, pointer, treat....As I mentioned, they will fly and Poppie is good, just both tend to land where ever and need to train them on suitable landing spots and train them not to land on the things that they shouldn't land on.
Such as birdell missed his landing and into the dishwater he went, covered in suds...Hahaha....lucky it wasn't hot water, as the dishes were done and water had cooled down.

Thank you for sharing the story of that hawk you rescued. I'm so sorry that things turned out as they did, but you gave her more of a life than she might ever have experienced otherwise. And replaced a nest, to boot! Most impressive.

As for your question, I use treats and lots of praise in accordance with the method of positive reinforcement. I used to use a pointer and a clicker as well, and found them quite effective. The only problem was that I eventually got less disciplined about carrying that stuff around with me whenever I was around my birds. So a teaching moment would come up and I would make an exception and just use my finger to point, and an encouraging tone in my voice to indicate that they'd done a good job.

Such exceptions became more and more common, until use of the training implements became the exceptions rather than the rules. So at this moment I don't use them, but I do think them very effective tools when used consistently.

But for the flight recall training, as well as stay put training, I'd definitely suggest working in a smaller room with two plain training perches. Less distractions, and if you do the training between meals they'll be very motivated by the proffered treats. (Not advocating the withholding of food, btw. Just strategically timed training.) The lessons learned there will transfer to what happens outside if practiced consistently enough.

That's some interesting advice and sounds like a plan I might try..

 

[shethv]

I have had a pair of Alexandrine parakeets for over 6 years. I have never clipped Thier wings But I also don't have a cat or dog from whom they need to fly away .

 

[goalerjones]

Pro: if you don't clip your birds wings you'll never have to defend your decision to clip his wings.

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