Orrin used to love my wife and I equally. Not anymore.

[Orin2017]

My wife flew out of state and had two heart surgeries. Before leaving home, all was well with the relationship between Orrin and my wife. In fact, my wife mollycoddled Orrin and spoiled her far more than I. Sadly, my wife was gone for about 3 months.

While she was gone, I had to leave Orrin with my father in law for a couple of weeks while I traveled out of state to be at my wife’s side during her surgeries. When I returned, Orrin was a little upset with me for pawning her off with my father in law, thereby completely changing her entire world. She quickly forgave me, though, when I returned.

Because I had been majorly depressed and because I had a low back surgery myself in April, I spent a lot of my time in bed. It was just Orrin and I, together, all day long, every day. She only goes in her cage at night when she is tired. Otherwise she spent all her time with me.

Back when I worked a schedule of two weeks of work followed by two weeks of R&R (Rest and Relaxation), my absence for two weeks affected the bond between Orrin and I. She treated me the way she is treating my wife right now. She wouldn’t come over to me by her own initiative, and she blew up like a blowfish defensively, sometimes biting me. But, Orrin got over it after about a week each time I returned home. Ever since I stopped returning to work, due to disabilities, I’ve spent more time with Orrin and in fact all my time with Orrin. She is extremely bonded to me. Although she used to tolerate anyone else and used to step up on other people’s fingers, that all changed during puberty. Orrin tries to bite anyone who comes close to me and tries to pet her.

Now, Orrin is treating my wife like she would treat a total stranger. She won’t let my wife pet her, and she bites my wife HARD every single day. Sometimes Orrin will come up to my wife and sit on her shoulder for awhile, on her own initiative, and as long as my wife doesn’t move, she might remain fine and unbitten. However, the moment my wife attempts to pet Orrin and show her affection, Orrin foofs up like a blowfish and bites my wife hard! My wife can’t even get Orrin off of her when Orrin is biting. I am the only one Orrin listens to. I’m the only one who can say “no biting!” and “step up!” to Orrin with positive results. She listens only to me.

Before my wife left home for surgery, she used to get her out of her cage in the morning, clean up her morning poop off of the bathroom sink, set her up with a variety of food for breakfast, and in general love and spoil her. Now my wife can’t get Orrin out of her cage in order to resume the old routine, because Orrin goes nuts and biting mad if anyone but me attempts to get her out of her cage, pet her, feed her, etc.

This has hurt my wife’s feelings immensely. My wife is feeling betrayed and just crushed. When I put Orrin in her cage for biting my wife, afterwards my wife says Orrin gives my wife the “evil eye,” you know, hate-filled eyes that say “You’ll pay for this!”

I advised my wife to allow Orrin to come to her if Orrin wants to, but not to force her and not to pet her. I also advised my wife to uncover the cage in the morning, so she has light, but don’t let her out of her cage as it is a trigger.

Is there anything else that any of you with experience can suggest, to improve the bond between Orrin and my wife and stop Orrin from biting her?

I swear, Orrin reminds me of my old pit bull. That dog would not let anyone near me. He bit anyone that was a stranger and came near me, and he didn’t like sharing me with my wife either. It is almost as if I have an attack parrot. That’s not what I want. I want Orrin to be nice to other people. Any advise is appreciated.


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[dhraiden]

Conure puberty problems. I went through that with my Mochi. You need to actually immediately stop spending so much time with Orrin, and let your wife be the one to be around her. Mochi used to really like me, and then my SO spent so much more time with her that Mochi over-bonded to my wife and would be very aggressive when I was around, biting my fingers and generally trying to "get between" my wife and me when she was out with us.

It's going to take a lot of time - maybe even months - but you need to equilibriate things so that Orrin recognizes your wife as a care-giver/treat-provider/good person to be around. That means you can't be ANYWHERE near Orrin when your wife is trying to be around her. And also, don't let Orrin ever be higher, height wise than you are. Don't allow Orrin to ever perch on YOUR shoulder. If Orrin bites, you put them back in their cage immediately with a firm "no bite". Birds are flock animals and can quickly associate negative behavior with ostracizing consequences. It's a powerful technique that you should use when merited.


Encourage your wife not to take Orrin's mood shift too personally. IMO in your situation I would also get a second bird, because there's no telling if Orrin will ever "be nice" with her in a way that's ideal, and caretaking a bird that doesn't care for you is not enjoyable.

 

[Laurasea]

I think and hope your wife can over come this. I'm sorry you both had to go through do much lately and I hope your wife is recovering.

She shouldn't try and per or force attention. But she should bribe and hand feed treats. And start a new relationship with the bird, act as though she is meeting for the first time and start the bonding process over.

I don't feel you should pull away from the bird, as this will only hurt his confidence and trust further. But you should set aside time that you stay out of sight while she actively works a session bwith the bird.

It takes time, but I think a good relationship is possible. But she can't take the liberties she used to with bird until she wins back trust.

I've had to win back my Ta-dah trust , once years ago with harness training incorrectly it took me six months to regain her trust. And once last year after useing my hands to break up fights between her and another bird. She decided my hands were the enemy and ran to bite them at every opportunity. Took a week of bribes and hand feeding, and being respectful to win her back that time. So I feel it can be done!

 

[YSGC]

It would be nice if parrots met our expectations, behaved, knew their place, obeyed and longed to please us.
Unfortunately parrots (unlike dogs) have not been domesticated by humans for thousands of years to conform to our wishes.

Parrots, even the sweetest tame hand-fed ones, are wild animals that we have yanked from their natural world for our pleasure.
I think we are very lucky that they 'fit' into our homes and families as well as they do.

I was Pico's favorite person till my SO moved in a year ago.
Now Pico wants nothing to do with me when my SO is in the house.
Remarkably, I accept this, perhaps because of my research, and 55+ years of having various birds.

In nature parrots pick a favorite member of their flock to be their partner.
When forced to live in a human home a parrot often picks a human to serve that natural purpose, and that choice may change over time.

Your Orrin and my Pico have done that.
But they are just being healthy, normal red-blooded parrots.
I have just let this be.
I will not try to "solve this problem", because there actually IS no problem.
(If there is a problem it's the unrealistic expectations of parrot owners)

I must adjust and learn my place in this parrot-human flock that I am responsible for creating.
After all, we are the ones who stole these intelligent creatures from their natural home and society.
I'm just grateful that my SO accepts Pico's overload of attention, and Pico still is a cuddle-bunny with me when my SO is not home.

Parrots have to do a LOT of adjusting to live in our flocks.
It's fair that I also do some adjusting to accept and accommodate Pico's comparatively modest needs.

 

[Orin2017]

Thanks for the input. Sorry for not individually quoting each person’s response.

Orrin rides on my head and shoulders everywhere. What is the connection between height and this problematic behavior? I read somewhere that there is no height dominance with parrots. They just naturally seem to want to gravitate to high things, e.g., hand towel holders in bathrooms, curtain rods above windows, the top of their cages. I’ve viewed my conure’s habit of shoulder riding as being consistent with that natural gravitation for height. Is there any evidence for shoulder riding being a problem? If so, how would a person explain that shoulder riding is not a problem for me personally?

I thought about getting another conure for Orrin to bond with. But the wife (aka the boss) says NO!!!! to that idea, and I’ve mentioned it many times. The idea has thus been vetoed (a happy woman is a happy family). I think Orrin needs an avian companion because there is some serious jealousy going on between my conure and my wife. Orrin actually flew a distance to get between my wife and I, upon seeing husband and wife (aka home wrecker, intruder, interloper, the other woman, hussy) showing affection. Yeah! Orrin got jealous! I feel like I am I’m now marked as Orrin’s lover/mate, at least in Orrin’s eyes. Favorite person? More than favorite!

I have tried to cage her for biting. I’m ready to start shunning Orrin by leaving her on the floor. Someone mentioned that as a discipline form once.

Here is what I think is going on. I think Orrin is experiencing an attachment disorder. I’m not a psychologist, much less a parrot psychologist, yet I think that the stronger the bond the stronger the perceived betrayal. I think my parrot is very emotional and highly intelligent. When I used to have to work for two weeks straight away from home, my wife would bring the conure with her to the airport to pick me up. Orrin’s only acknowledgement of me was a bite, then she ignored me for about a week, before beginning to warm up to me again. But then after two weeks I had to leave for work again. Thus, the strong bond between Orrin and my wife at that tine was an emotionally safe and reliable and consistent bond. My wife wasn’t going anywhere; whereas, I left every month. While I was gone, my wife and Orrin bonded deeply. It was obvious to me when I returned home. Although Orrin treated me like crap when I first returned home, Orrin eventually got used to my schedule and learned to love me equally. So...my feeling is that Orrin has viewed my wife’s 3 month absence as an ultimate betrayal. My gut tells me that Orrin feels betrayed by my wife’s perceived abandonment. She is lashing out at my wife viscously. Why? I think I have identified the why. I just don’t know what to do about it, to make things as they were before.

One person suggests I spend less time with my conure. In practice, this would result in Orrin having to be caged while I doodle around the house: Orrin would just make a ton of noise to get out of her cage. She wins; I lose. I can see how that will play out.

The less interaction that occurs between Orrin and my wife right now, I fear, will only solidify the rift between them. Yet when my wife attempts to love up Orrin, Orrin attacks her and bites HARD! She is drawing blood and making marks on her hands.

Soooo frustrating....




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[YSGC]

... What is the connection between height and this problematic behavior? ...

A strong connection, I believe.

Parrots in wild flocks have a pecking order.
Top-ranking birds get their choice of food and mates.
Everyone lower gets leftovers.
This is the way with many animals including, arguably, humans.

While this seems not "nice" for the individuals not on top it does improve the health of the species/flock.
Survival of the fittest, and all that.

Bird size influences pecking order.
Bigger outranks smaller.
That's why eye level is instrumental in pecking order.
Side by side a bigger bird's eyes will be higher.

I read about a "bird psychologist" who is handsomely paid to fly around the world helping wealthy 'parronts' solve their parrot problems.
Often all she has to do to solve the problem behavior is lower the height of the cage, playgrounds etc.

Apparently height is intoxicating to birds.
It makes them think they are all that and a bag of chips.

... and let's never forget that our parrots are wild animals.

 

[Orin2017]

... What is the connection between height and this problematic behavior? ...

A strong connection, I believe.

Parrots in wild flocks have a pecking order.
Top-ranking birds get their choice of food and mates.
Everyone lower gets leftovers.
This is the way with many animals including, arguably, humans.

While this seems not "nice" for the individuals not on top it does improve the health of the species/flock.
Survival of the fittest, and all that.

Bird size influences pecking order.
Bigger outranks smaller.
That's why eye level is instrumental in pecking order.
Side by side a bigger bird's eyes will be higher.

I read about a "bird psychologist" who is handsomely paid to fly around the world helping wealthy 'parronts' solve their parrot problems.
Often all she has to do to solve the problem behavior is lower the height of the cage, playgrounds etc.

Apparently height is intoxicating to birds.
It makes them think they are all that and a bag of chips.

... and let's never forget that our parrots are wild animals.

Thank you for your thoughts and your theories. Orrin does ride on our shoulders, on our heads. She did so for the last three years without exhibiting any behavioral problems. She is only now exhibiting behavioral problems toward my wife.

When I attempt to determine causation, I have to ask myself: what’s different now? What changed? What is different now verses then (roughly three months ago)? Perhaps this is the wrong litmus test for causation in this circumstance, but it tends to work in other circumstances.

What you said about parrots ultimately being wild birds, resinates with me. It makes me wonder about individual verses flock behavior, the hierarchy of the pecking order, how positions in the hierarchy are earned but just as importantly I wonder what positions exist in the flock, what duties and responsibilities are attached to each position, and whether positions can be modified by humans.

If you are proposing that my problem is related to position in the flock, are you suggesting that Orrin viewed my wife’s absence—that being the event which was the thing that was different—as an opportunity to modify the pecking order at home? My wife goes away; my parrot sees this, puffs out her chest, and decides a promotion is in order? That my parrot is now my wife (at least in my parrot’s eyes)? If so, that theory seems to correlate with her behavior. She’s in LOVE with me. She will only be handled by me. She only wants to be with me, cuddled if possible.

I don’t mind it if our conure has a crush on me. It is kind of cute the way she gently bites my lips. My wife definitely notices the bird’s got a crush on me. The problem is that my wife cannot handle Orrin anymore, due to the biting; and due to the biting, my wife cannot seem to have any relationship with Orrin at all, besides being a victim of biting.




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[Orin2017]

So, I took the advise of some members of this forum and removed the bed from Orrin’s cage, wondering if it was causing hormonal aggression toward my wife: no dice. Orrin still attacks my wife upon sight. And at night, Orrin makes noises all night long, and obviously isn’t sleeping now without the bed I made her.


Orrin is EXTREMELY jealous of me. If my wife so much as touches me, and Orrin is uncaged, this bird will burst into a full on frontal attack of my wife’s hands, neck or face.

Now, I have read that punishing a bird for exhibiting jealousy aggression is not good. Yet I have also read the opposite. All my wife does is talk nice and gentle to Orrin and approach her with treats and fruits.

I try to give my wife and Orrin some more alone time but this only results in my wife yelling at me to get the damn bird off of her because Orrin is biting the heck out of my wife.

What do I do? Any conure whisperers have any suggestions?


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[JuicyNip]

This discussion/thread has really gotten me thinking. I agree with those who have stated how intelligent parrots are. I think of mine as this highly intelligent, very sensitive, complicated, high-strung creature who loves deeply and is sensitive to the other members of his flock and what happens in his world. Kind of like Rainman.

I hope Orrin decides to forgive your wife and rebond with her soon. And I will be praying that she heals and grows stronger quickly.

 

[rita1]

this is very sad that this has happened.
it's the time you have been away has upset your bird.
i had a new bird join the flock who was just bonding with me and i went away for 2 weeks on holiday and my son came over to look after the birds.
when i got home he hated me attacked me and drew blood, i was gutted, my son would come in and the bird loved him.
i had to go back to the very basis of training him, sitting talking feeding treats and not letting him out, but as he was still young it did not take long for me to be his friend again.
but i do know what it must be like for the house hold. i hate unrest in the home, i like calm and a happy peaceful contented home with all the humans and animals. good luck.

 

[fiddlejen]

Do you have a smaller, mobile cage that Orrin could be inside of, yet move her around in I to keep her near whichever of you two that you have chosen she should be interacting with? Not a tiny travel cage but a medium-small mobile cage?

I often do this with my own Sunny - for quite different reasons - but Im thinking that would enable Orrin to be near your wife and your wife interact with her, without Orrin biting her, until Orrin re-acclimates to her. You could be the one to move Orrin to the smaller cage, and you could work it out together how much to keep the bird right beside one or the other of you?

Anyways this is just a thought.

 

[Orin2017]

Do you have a smaller, mobile cage that Orrin could be inside of, yet move her around in I to keep her near whichever of you two that you have chosen she should be interacting with? Not a tiny travel cage but a medium-small mobile cage?

I often do this with my own Sunny - for quite different reasons - but Im thinking that would enable Orrin to be near your wife and your wife interact with her, without Orrin biting her, until Orrin re-acclimates to her. You could be the one to move Orrin to the smaller cage, and you could work it out together how much to keep the bird right beside one or the other of you?

Anyways this is just a thought.

I don’t have such a cage yet. I will look for one. Thanks.


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[Orin2017]

this is very sad that this has happened.
it's the time you have been away has upset your bird.
i had a new bird join the flock who was just bonding with me and i went away for 2 weeks on holiday and my son came over to look after the birds.
when i got home he hated me attacked me and drew blood, i was gutted, my son would come in and the bird loved him.
i had to go back to the very basis of training him, sitting talking feeding treats and not letting him out, but as he was still young it did not take long for me to be his friend again.
but i do know what it must be like for the house hold. i hate unrest in the home, i like calm and a happy peaceful contented home with all the humans and animals. good luck.

My wife can only offer Orrin food “after” Orrin is out of her cage, like at our own meal time. She can’t offer Orrin food or treats when Orrin is in her cage. She bites the cage like a rabid dog when my wife approaches the cage, which is sad because my wife used to be the one who spoiled Orrin and was the first to get her out of her cage and feed her in the morning.

Now, I have to do everything. I have to get her out of her cage, feed her, snuggle with her in bed afterwards until I’m ready to truly wake up for the day, and if my wife comes near or sweet talks Orrin....this bird’s hackles go up. She poofs up like a blow fish, and leans outward toward my wife with an opened beak in order to bite. When Orrin leans outwards towards me, her feathers are drawn in and her beak is closed: she just uses it as an extra hand to climb aboard. Not so with my wife. She is ready to bite the living hell out of my wife.

My wife tries to rebond with her still and I’ll hear my name shouted: “Get her off of me!!!”

Sure enough, Orrin has drawn blood and made marks. She has even been acting slightly aggressive toward me too, seeing how she gets her way by terrorizing my wife; why not see if the same strategy works toward me? Only, I don’t show any fear toward Orrin. If she bites me, I don’t let her get her way. I don’t reward her for biting. Rather, if she bites me, I just avoid whatever I was doing beforehand. For instance, if I was petting her, and she nips at me, I know she’s just molting and I don’t take it personally.

Orrin will straight up attack my wife if my wife loves on me or touches me. It’s obvious that Orrin is jealous of me. I’m not just her favorite person. I am her only person now.


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[barw33zy]

I have had similar experiences with my conure. I am active duty military and we got him when I had 3 years of no deployments, but after coming home from my first deployment with Sonny, things had changed significantly, as expected. I experienced the rabid dog biting the cage when I walked by and it was very upsetting to me. I took months before I could even feed or water him, but he was so sweet with my wife, way more than he had been before. Patience has been the key.

Now, if i have to leave home for extended times, when I return, I re-enter a courtship with our parrot. Touch training and treats and absolutely NO pushing it. If Sonny nips or even looks aggrivated, I try again later that day or the next. I think this re-builds trust. Eventually he always comes back to being cuddly and sweet to me, but it is always in his own time. We have had Sonny for 7 years and it's like any relationship, with patience and work, and more patience, and trying different approaches, it always works out.

I know its extremely difficult to work through this, especially the first time, but remember you have 25 years together, don't rush anything and it will work out. In the scope of 25 years, what's 2, 3, or even 6 months? Not much I'd say.

 

[Orin2017]

I have had similar experiences with my conure. I am active duty military and we got him when I had 3 years of no deployments, but after coming home from my first deployment with Sonny, things had changed significantly, as expected. I experienced the rabid dog biting the cage when I walked by and it was very upsetting to me. I took months before I could even feed or water him, but he was so sweet with my wife, way more than he had been before. Patience has been the key.



Now, if i have to leave home for extended times, when I return, I re-enter a courtship with our parrot. Touch training and treats and absolutely NO pushing it. If Sonny nips or even looks aggrivated, I try again later that day or the next. I think this re-builds trust. Eventually he always comes back to being cuddly and sweet to me, but it is always in his own time. We have had Sonny for 7 years and it's like any relationship, with patience and work, and more patience, and trying different approaches, it always works out.



I know its extremely difficult to work through this, especially the first time, but remember you have 25 years together, don't rush anything and it will work out. In the scope of 25 years, what's 2, 3, or even 6 months? Not much I'd say.

Thank you for your advise. Very valuable. And thanks for your service too.


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