New to Parrot Ownership! Advice? Recommendations?

[troubadour]

Hi guys!

I'm new to the forum, and I'd like some advice. I've only ever had a couple parakeets (plus a LOT of chickens), but recently I've been considering adding a conure to the family.

I've done my research and can make all necessary accommodations. However, as is often the case, a lot of research I've stumbled across presents conflicting information.

I know that inevitably parrots bite, but is there anything I can do to minimize this or discourage the behavior? One journal stated that if a bird bites you, you should remain quiet and walk away. Another bird expert said that walking away will only encourage the behavior because the bird is getting you to go away, as desired.

Can anyone tell me--from personal experience--what the best approach is? Also, if anyone has any books they would recommend about parrot care that have worked for them, that would be very helpful.

Thanks

 

[Flboy]

Hi and welcome!
Why do birds bite? Because they can!

 

[Flboy]

Hi and welcome!
Why do birds bite? Because they can!

Couldn’t resist!
There are so many reasons, but I disagree with two philosophies, ignoring, and negative discipline!
Give this a read, it totally changed my relationship with parrots! I was being a dominant jerk!
http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

 

[troubadour]

Hi and welcome!
Why do birds bite? Because they can!

Couldn’t resist!
There are so many reasons, but I disagree with two philosophies, ignoring, and negative discipline!
Give this a read, it totally changed my relationship with parrots! I was being a dominant jerk!
http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

Thank you SO much for that resource! Just what I was looking for

 

[Anansi]

Good morning, and welcome to the Parrot Forums family!

Yes, most parrots do wind up biting. (Unless you get VERY lucky.) But you can definitely do things to bring down the likelihood. When they are properly bite-pressure trained, combined with your developing ability to read their body language, bites can become something of a rarity.

I currently have two eclectus parrots (Jolly and Maya), and in the past I had one ekkie (Bixby) and a cockatiel (Suzie). Jolly has never bitten over nearly 7 years of life. (though that is more due to his extremely gentle disposition than anything else, to be honest.) Maya has bitten me once (The first time she was going through a hormonal phase) and nipped me twice over 7 years. (Bite is breaking the skin. A nip is an uncomfortable pinch.) Bixby bit me twice, and Suzie bit me once in 18 years. Some of my success in this arena has been due to luck. Not one of my birds has tended toward extreme hormonal swings. But much of it is also due to reading their body language and not putting myself in a position to be bitten in the first place.

The link David (Flboy) provided is excellent for bite avoidance and the importance of body language. I suggest reading that one from beginning to end.

As far as bite-pressure training goes, here are some good ones:
http://www.parrotforums.com/training/63988-bite-pressure-training.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/58911-bird-bites-always-2.html

As you will see in the links above, Just quietly taking the bite is not the way to go. As with a human toddler, a parrot has to be taught boundaries. My birds don't bite me, but that's because they've learned alternative ways to communicate with me. And I've learned to listen to them. Biting, save for when a bird has been accidentally trained to bite, is usually a last resort for birds. In nature, it just doesn't happen much. Because birds read body language a lot better than we do. So, they rarely ever get to the point where there is any need to bite a member of their flock.

Maya, for instance, has learned to gently beak my finger when she wants to go to her tree stand or back to her cage. She'll do this at intervals and with increasing amounts of pressure if I don't respond right away. She's done her job in finding a way to communicate to me something she wants. It's my job to pay attention. Before the beak pressure gets hard enough to become uncomfortable.

Or Jolly. Whenever he wanted me to hurry up with making his food, he had a habit of nibbling (gently) on my ear. I didn't like that. So I made sure he understood this (you'll see how in the bite-pressure training link), and worked with him to find another way to express his impatience. We settled on him rubbing the side edge of his beak against my cheek. An acceptable mode of expression that we can both live with. Two-way street.

Most important thing here, is to remember you are training yourself at least as much as you are training him. Once you begin to see things that way, bite avoidance and bite-pressure training becomes more of an attainable goal.

 

[troubadour]

Good morning, and welcome to the Parrot Forums family!

Yes, most parrots do wind up biting. (Unless you get VERY lucky.) But you can definitely do things to bring down the likelihood. When they are properly bite-pressure trained, combined with your developing ability to read their body language, bites can become something of a rarity.

I currently have two eclectus parrots (Jolly and Maya), and in the past I had one ekkie (Bixby) and a cockatiel (Suzie). Jolly has never bitten over nearly 7 years of life. (though that is more due to his extremely gentle disposition than anything else, to be honest.) Maya has bitten me once (The first time she was going through a hormonal phase) and nipped me twice over 7 years. (Bite is breaking the skin. A nip is an uncomfortable pinch.) Bixby bit me twice, and Suzie bit me once in 18 years. Some of my success in this arena has been due to luck. Not one of my birds has tended toward extreme hormonal swings. But much of it is also due to reading their body language and not putting myself in a position to be bitten in the first place.

The link David (Flboy) provided is excellent for bite avoidance and the importance of body language. I suggest reading that one from beginning to end.

As far as bite-pressure training goes, here are some good ones:
http://www.parrotforums.com/training/63988-bite-pressure-training.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/58911-bird-bites-always-2.html

As you will see in the links above, Just quietly taking the bite is not the way to go. As with a human toddler, a parrot has to be taught boundaries. My birds don't bite me, but that's because they've learned alternative ways to communicate with me. And I've learned to listen to them. Biting, save for when a bird has been accidentally trained to bite, is usually a last resort for birds. In nature, it just doesn't happen much. Because birds read body language a lot better than we do. So, they rarely ever get to the point where there is any need to bite a member of their flock.

Maya, for instance, has learned to gently beak my finger when she wants to go to her tree stand or back to her cage. She'll do this at intervals and with increasing amounts of pressure if I don't respond right away. She's done her job in finding a way to communicate to me something she wants. It's my job to pay attention. Before the beak pressure gets hard enough to become uncomfortable.

Or Jolly. Whenever he wanted me to hurry up with making his food, he had a habit of nibbling (gently) on my ear. I didn't like that. So I made sure he understood this (you'll see how in the bite-pressure training link), and worked with him to find another way to express his impatience. We settled on him rubbing the side edge of his beak against my cheek. An acceptable mode of expression that we can both live with. Two-way street.

Most important thing here, is to remember you are training yourself at least as much as you are training him. Once you begin to see things that way, bite avoidance and bite-pressure training becomes more of an attainable goal.

Good morning and thank you for the welcome and kind regards!

I checked out the two threads you sent me, and they were very informative! I never even knew such conditioning with bite pressure existed. Out of all the methods I've seen this one seemed to be the most reasonable. I think it's admirable how close you are to your birds and how you've learned the art of understanding their behavior without anthropomorphizing them--really helped clear my previous belief that bites should be ignored, as I have often been told. Thanks so much for your input and wisdom; it helps a lot!!

 

[Anansi]

Anytime! Glad I could help.

 

[Inger]

So glad you’re here looking for help! And in advance of a problem!! This place is an invaluable resource and also filled with good people who will start to feel like your family if you stick around [emoji3526]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[troubadour]

Omg that's actually so sweet, thank you! P.S. your bird is adorable <3

 

[noodles123]

Here's what I wrote to someone asking for the basics (welcome BTW):
There is a lot to caring for a parrot--- Scarlet Macaws can live have 80 years.

I am going to write a ton here because it sounds like you are very new to this and there is a lot to learn. I don't mean to overwhelm you!

You shouldn't buy an un-weaned baby. If your bird is not fully-weaned, I would bring him back to the breeder and insist that they finish weaning him BEFORE you bring him back home. There is SO much that can go wrong if you try to wean a baby yourself without proper experience. Here is some more information on weaning issues: So you bought an unweaned baby...

One really important thing when keeping a pet bird in the house is that you cannot use scented products or chemicals/fumes in your home (even things that smell nice to us(---things like smoke, perfumes, air freshener, standard cleaners, vaping, burning food, incense, cigarettes, glue, paint, window sealing kits, polishes, aerosol sprays etc can harm your bird's sensitive respiratory system (which is not the same as mammals'). Using products that heat or are heated which contain Teflon/PTFE/PFCs = very very dangerous. These products off-gas and can kill a bird in under 5 minutes. Teflon/PTFE/PFOA/PFCs are most commonly found in the kitchen (pots, pans, cookie sheets, drip trays, air fryers, popcorn poppers, baking mats, crock pots, toasters, toaster ovens, popcorn poppers, waffle irons, electric skillets etc. They can also be found in space-heaters, curling irons, blow-dryers, straighteners, heat lamps, heat guns, irons, ironing board covers etc. These fumes have killed birds through closed doors and on separate floors of a home, so you should replace your cookware with stainless steel, cast iron or ceramic.

You will need an avian-safe cleaner to use within your home (both on the bird cage, but also, around the house). Again, chemical cleaners cannot be used in the home unless avian safe. F10 SC (the yellow/clear concentrate) is a great, avian-safe disinfectant. Other (less effective) options include products such as "poop-off", white vinegar + water, grapefruit seed extract + water, baking soda etc. Peroxide is also fairly safe for disinfecting places like your bathroom, but you do not want your bird to come into contact with it.

Some foods are toxic to them--avocado, coffee (even decaf), caffeine, rhubarb, alcohol, onions/garlic/leeks/chives, mushrooms etc. Salt is also very bad for them, as is most human food. They love it, but it's not healthy.

They should not just eat seed--you will want to feed lots of washed fresh vegetables. Fruit is fine in moderation, but too much can lead to obesity and behavioral issues due to sugar. I feed my bird a mix of high-quality seed (no sunflowers, no peanuts) and pellets (in addition to fruit/veg). Fruit pits are toxic, as are apple seeds. Corn cob and certain nut shells (if swallowed in big pieces) can cause blockages, so you should be very cautious if you give your bird nuts in the shell. Peanuts can harbor aspergillosis, and should be avoided altogether (even they you often see them marketed towards parrots).

It is important to make sure that your bird's toys and cage are made of safe metals. Stainless steel is safest. They can get metal poisoning from playing with or mouthing objects made of unsafe metals.

They need a set amount of sleep each night (at least 10 hours) and the largest cage you can manage with lots of different perches. You want to avoid the totally smooth/round ones as they can lead to a condition called bumblefoot. Never place a cage near drafts and never allow cool air to blow on a bird. They are sensitive to drafts and any temperature shift greater than 10 degrees can cause a shock to their system.

They need lots of safe toys and safe wood to chew. Not all wood is safe, so don't just assume you can give them any kind you want.

They hide illness and so you have to watch them to make sure they are eating normally and pooping normally etc. You should try to find an avian vet (certified avian) if at all possible and take your bird AT LEAST 1 x yearly for an exam. An avian vet is NOT the same as an exotics vet who sees birds--- so if a certified avian vet is available within a few hours of where you live, you will want to set up care.

Macaws and all parrots can easily confuse the relationship with their human for a sexual one. You don't want this to happen, even though it seems sweet at first. Stick to petting on the head and neck only (the rest is sexual) and do not allow your bird to play in shadowy places, like boxes or under furniture, as these spaces are similar nesting sites and are hormonal triggers.

Food and water should be replaced daily--- wash the containers daily. Never leave wet food out for more than a few hours (as it can lead to bacterial growth). Never try to medicate a bird via drinking water and never add vitamins to water. Vitamins can be over-dosed easily and harm a bird. Plus, when you add things to water, it makes it impossible to know how much they have gotten and it also encourages bacterial growth. Sometimes it can prevent them from drinking adequately if they don't like the flavor of whatever it is you added.

These birds have the intelligence of a 4-year-old human, but they are wild animals (not domesticated like dogs). This means that they see the world (and humans) in a very unique way and so you must learn about their behavior in order to prevent problems (screaming, plucking etc). They need lots of time out of their cage daily and a lot of interaction (at least a few hours). At the same time, you don't want to spend TOO much time with a bird of they will become overly dependent and not know what to do with themselves when you go to work etc.

Finally, baby birds are ALWAYS sweet compared to adult birds. When your bird hits puberty, expect that it will exhibit some annoying and problematic behaviors (much like a teen). A through knowledge of behavior and setting expectations at an early age will make your life easier when that time comes, but do prepare yourself and expect that things will not always be so smooth-sailing. Think about a baby human compared to a teen...

I am sure there is more...but that is a basic overview of caring for birds.

 

[Scott]

Welcome to the forums, kudos for researching before taking the plunge. Superb advice above!!

 

[troubadour]

Here's what I wrote to someone asking for the basics (welcome BTW):
There is a lot to caring for a parrot--- Scarlet Macaws can live have 80 years.

I am going to write a ton here because it sounds like you are very new to this and there is a lot to learn. I don't mean to overwhelm you!

You shouldn't buy an un-weaned baby. If your bird is not fully-weaned, I would bring him back to the breeder and insist that they finish weaning him BEFORE you bring him back home. There is SO much that can go wrong if you try to wean a baby yourself without proper experience. Here is some more information on weaning issues: So you bought an unweaned baby...

One really important thing when keeping a pet bird in the house is that you cannot use scented products or chemicals/fumes in your home (even things that smell nice to us(---things like smoke, perfumes, air freshener, standard cleaners, vaping, burning food, incense, cigarettes, glue, paint, window sealing kits, polishes, aerosol sprays etc can harm your bird's sensitive respiratory system (which is not the same as mammals'). Using products that heat or are heated which contain Teflon/PTFE/PFCs = very very dangerous. These products off-gas and can kill a bird in under 5 minutes. Teflon/PTFE/PFOA/PFCs are most commonly found in the kitchen (pots, pans, cookie sheets, drip trays, air fryers, popcorn poppers, baking mats, crock pots, toasters, toaster ovens, popcorn poppers, waffle irons, electric skillets etc. They can also be found in space-heaters, curling irons, blow-dryers, straighteners, heat lamps, heat guns, irons, ironing board covers etc. These fumes have killed birds through closed doors and on separate floors of a home, so you should replace your cookware with stainless steel, cast iron or ceramic.

You will need an avian-safe cleaner to use within your home (both on the bird cage, but also, around the house). Again, chemical cleaners cannot be used in the home unless avian safe. F10 SC (the yellow/clear concentrate) is a great, avian-safe disinfectant. Other (less effective) options include products such as "poop-off", white vinegar + water, grapefruit seed extract + water, baking soda etc. Peroxide is also fairly safe for disinfecting places like your bathroom, but you do not want your bird to come into contact with it.

Some foods are toxic to them--avocado, coffee (even decaf), caffeine, rhubarb, alcohol, onions/garlic/leeks/chives, mushrooms etc. Salt is also very bad for them, as is most human food. They love it, but it's not healthy.

They should not just eat seed--you will want to feed lots of washed fresh vegetables. Fruit is fine in moderation, but too much can lead to obesity and behavioral issues due to sugar. I feed my bird a mix of high-quality seed (no sunflowers, no peanuts) and pellets (in addition to fruit/veg). Fruit pits are toxic, as are apple seeds. Corn cob and certain nut shells (if swallowed in big pieces) can cause blockages, so you should be very cautious if you give your bird nuts in the shell. Peanuts can harbor aspergillosis, and should be avoided altogether (even they you often see them marketed towards parrots).

It is important to make sure that your bird's toys and cage are made of safe metals. Stainless steel is safest. They can get metal poisoning from playing with or mouthing objects made of unsafe metals.

They need a set amount of sleep each night (at least 10 hours) and the largest cage you can manage with lots of different perches. You want to avoid the totally smooth/round ones as they can lead to a condition called bumblefoot. Never place a cage near drafts and never allow cool air to blow on a bird. They are sensitive to drafts and any temperature shift greater than 10 degrees can cause a shock to their system.

They need lots of safe toys and safe wood to chew. Not all wood is safe, so don't just assume you can give them any kind you want.

They hide illness and so you have to watch them to make sure they are eating normally and pooping normally etc. You should try to find an avian vet (certified avian) if at all possible and take your bird AT LEAST 1 x yearly for an exam. An avian vet is NOT the same as an exotics vet who sees birds--- so if a certified avian vet is available within a few hours of where you live, you will want to set up care.

Macaws and all parrots can easily confuse the relationship with their human for a sexual one. You don't want this to happen, even though it seems sweet at first. Stick to petting on the head and neck only (the rest is sexual) and do not allow your bird to play in shadowy places, like boxes or under furniture, as these spaces are similar nesting sites and are hormonal triggers.

Food and water should be replaced daily--- wash the containers daily. Never leave wet food out for more than a few hours (as it can lead to bacterial growth). Never try to medicate a bird via drinking water and never add vitamins to water. Vitamins can be over-dosed easily and harm a bird. Plus, when you add things to water, it makes it impossible to know how much they have gotten and it also encourages bacterial growth. Sometimes it can prevent them from drinking adequately if they don't like the flavor of whatever it is you added.

These birds have the intelligence of a 4-year-old human, but they are wild animals (not domesticated like dogs). This means that they see the world (and humans) in a very unique way and so you must learn about their behavior in order to prevent problems (screaming, plucking etc). They need lots of time out of their cage daily and a lot of interaction (at least a few hours). At the same time, you don't want to spend TOO much time with a bird of they will become overly dependent and not know what to do with themselves when you go to work etc.

Finally, baby birds are ALWAYS sweet compared to adult birds. When your bird hits puberty, expect that it will exhibit some annoying and problematic behaviors (much like a teen). A through knowledge of behavior and setting expectations at an early age will make your life easier when that time comes, but do prepare yourself and expect that things will not always be so smooth-sailing. Think about a baby human compared to a teen...

I am sure there is more...but that is a basic overview of caring for birds.

Thank you so much for that comprehensive overview of owning a parrot! I did not know that even wearing perfume could be harmful to the bird's respiratory system. I do have a few questions though, at what time do you put the bird to bed? What's the recommended time? Also, what is the recommended serving size for feeding the bird? Do they do best with a feeding routine or should they be fed throughout the day? In other words, what should the feeding schedule look like?

 

[Scott]

Most of my birds naturally go to bed at sunset and arise with daybreak. A few that live in the family room keep hours more consistent with the household.

I free-feed my flock pellets, so they have continuous access. Fresh veggies and fruits aka "chop" are provided 4 to 5 times weekly. Access time depends on season, as temperatures cause spoilage. A range of 5 to 8 hours seems safe in a temperate climate.

 

[noodles123]

Yes- their respiratory issues are a real concern in a house where people do so many toxic things--- people don't think about things like carpet shampoo, or spray deodorant, candles, perfume, oils, cleaners etc (but they need to). So many "little" things that don't immediately harm humans or mammals can really impact birds(but people often forget). Sometimes the damage in a bird is slow to show itself, other times, the impacts show up rapidly.

The most insidious is the Teflon/ptfe/pfoa/pfcs because you have to call the company to verify that anything that heats or is intended to be heated does not contain these substances ("PTFE free" doesn't mean PFC free and so there are a lot of marketing gimmicks out there to make people buy what seems like healthier cook-ware, even though it still contains a version of the same chemicals). Also-- these chemicals can be woven into fabric, mixed into metal during the moulding process, applied as a powder, applied as a clear-coat, or mixed with a colored coating. You cannot assume that you will be able to identify them visually, so, when you call, you must provide all abbreviations and full names + spellings of each chemical compound (and then they usually give you "the run around" for a week or so IF they ever answer your questions at all---because sometimes it's a "trade secret"). It's all very sketchy and DuPont (manufacturer of Teflon) claims that off-gassing only occurs at really high temperatures, but there have been numerous documented/scientific and anecdotal reports of birds passing away at temperatures in the 300 F range (and again, it kills through closed doors and on different floors).
FYI- Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA)
A perfluorinated compound (PFC)
Teflon (a common brand-name of non-stick cookware containing these chemicals)

10- 12 hours nightly for sleep, so if you get up at 6 and make a bunch of noise, you will wake the bird up (even if they are still covered). If they wake up at 6, bed should be between 6-8. You want to keep it around the same time if possible (because that's how it is in nature).

Food- I leave a high quality mix of pellets and some seed in my bird's cage (no peanuts, no sunflowers, avoid fillers like corn etc)..Fruit/veg daily (more veg than fruit if at all possible--and not too much fruit). Citrus and fruits high in vitamin C should be given in extreme moderation because they can cause "Iron Storage Disease" (for a cockatoo, 1 small tangerine slice 1-2 times a week was okay, according to my vet). She gets something interesting/ cooked (no salt or sugar or unsafe spaces-- like a grain) 2x daily as well but she is picky as heck, so you have to watch it because some birds will fill up on one thing and not get proper nutrients or they will eat too much and become obese.


OH-- something I didn't mention in my last post-- stainless steel is really one of the only safe metals for them. Research the heck out of your cage and make sure that if it uses a powder-coating it is truly non-toxic. Birds can get metal poisoning from playing with sketchy toys (many made in China do not adhere to best practices) and just mouthing things like money, bolts, locks etc can cause toxic impacts...A man I know allowed his bird to play with un-used toothbrushes and (unbeknownst to him) there were small copper bits that held the bristles in place-- this nearly killed his bird even though the bird didn't actually swallow the pieces. The bird had to have chelation therapy. Similarly, many tapes and glue adhesives (including those on paper-towel rolls etc) contain toxic levels of zinc.

 

[troubadour]

Most of my birds naturally go to bed at sunset and arise with daybreak. A few that live in the family room keep hours more consistent with the household.

I free-feed my flock pellets, so they have continuous access. Fresh veggies and fruits aka "chop" are provided 4 to 5 times weekly. Access time depends on season, as temperatures cause spoilage. A range of 5 to 8 hours seems safe in a temperate climate.

Thank you so much. That is very helpful

 

[troubadour]

Yes- their respiratory issues are a real concern in a house where people do so many toxic things--- people don't think about things like carpet shampoo, or spray deodorant, candles, perfume, oils, cleaners etc (but they need to). So many "little" things that don't immediately harm humans or mammals can really impact birds(but people often forget). Sometimes the damage in a bird is slow to show itself, other times, the impacts show up rapidly.

The most insidious is the Teflon/ptfe/pfoa/pfcs because you have to call the company to verify that anything that heats or is intended to be heated does not contain these substances ("PTFE free" doesn't mean PFC free and so there are a lot of marketing gimmicks out there to make people buy what seems like healthier cook-ware, even though it still contains a version of the same chemicals). Also-- these chemicals can be woven into fabric, mixed into metal during the moulding process, applied as a powder, applied as a clear-coat, or mixed with a colored coating. You cannot assume that you will be able to identify them visually, so, when you call, you must provide all abbreviations and full names + spellings of each chemical compound (and then they usually give you "the run around" for a week or so IF they ever answer your questions at all---because sometimes it's a "trade secret"). It's all very sketchy and DuPont (manufacturer of Teflon) claims that off-gassing only occurs at really high temperatures, but there have been numerous documented/scientific and anecdotal reports of birds passing away at temperatures in the 300 F range (and again, it kills through closed doors and on different floors).
FYI- Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA)
A perfluorinated compound (PFC)
Teflon (a common brand-name of non-stick cookware containing these chemicals)

10- 12 hours nightly for sleep, so if you get up at 6 and make a bunch of noise, you will wake the bird up (even if they are still covered). If they wake up at 6, bed should be between 6-8. You want to keep it around the same time if possible (because that's how it is in nature).

Food- I leave a high quality mix of pellets and some seed in my bird's cage (no peanuts, no sunflowers, avoid fillers like corn etc)..Fruit/veg daily (more veg than fruit if at all possible--and not too much fruit). Citrus and fruits high in vitamin C should be given in extreme moderation because they can cause "Iron Storage Disease" (for a cockatoo, 1 small tangerine slice 1-2 times a week was okay, according to my vet). She gets something interesting/ cooked (no salt or sugar or unsafe spaces-- like a grain) 2x daily as well but she is picky as heck, so you have to watch it because some birds will fill up on one thing and not get proper nutrients or they will eat too much and become obese.


OH-- something I didn't mention in my last post-- stainless steel is really one of the only safe metals for them. Research the heck out of your cage and make sure that if it uses a powder-coating it is truly non-toxic. Birds can get metal poisoning from playing with sketchy toys (many made in China do not adhere to best practices) and just mouthing things like money, bolts, locks etc can cause toxic impacts...A man I know allowed his bird to play with un-used toothbrushes and (unbeknownst to him) there were small copper bits that held the bristles in place-- this nearly killed his bird even though the bird didn't actually swallow the pieces. The bird had to have chelation therapy. Similarly, many tapes and glue adhesives (including those on paper-towel rolls etc) contain toxic levels of zinc.

This was extremely helpful!! I'll save this for future reference. You really know your stuff! Thanks so much, I really appreciate it.