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[Scott]

To Scott,


I'm not sure that I am making replies to specific persons properly...will search forum info on 'reply to threads'... I wanted to say thank you for the advice on Harrisons food products. Ellie doesn't like them very much so I won't fret that she sticks with fruit and veggies etc. I used to think that Harrisons were her key source of the 'extra vitamins/minerals' etc and became concerned if she didn't eat her pellets! Not any more :60:..


Debbie

Hi Debbie! Easiest way to respond directly to a person is via "Quote" button. At lower right side of post box are "buttons" for Edit, Quote, MQ (multi quote) QR (quick reply) and Thanks. Once activated, entire quote is at top of reply box; you can edit if desired to remove non pertinent text, and answer directly below

box.

One of the reasons pellets are detrimental to eclectus is their longer than typical digestive tract. Very efficient, thus easy to obtain too many supplemental additives such as vitamins, minerals, etc. As mentioned, Harrison's recommends them for this species though many of us on the forum disagree. But they are among the very best choice for most other parrots!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Welcome.
I'm so glad you're here, getting great advice and support from our Ekkie Community, and the rest of us!

 

[Ellie777Australia]

Thank you again, Scott and Forum team. Good news this morning (Aussie time)...Ellie did lay a second egg yesterday (before nesting box fully dismantled and blocked) and we left it there as advised. She became bored with it by 10:30pm and we made our way to 'sleepy time' as per usual. Ellie resumed her 'good-night' chatter and slept well.


She woke up to NO nesting box or egg this morning! We are currently working on phase 2 of 'targeting', redirecting etc. as she is trying to find her way into a dismantled/blocked nest site. Our best result so far is by 'great praise' (always her favourite reward) when she chooses to interact with us instead. Now, a few hours later, she is already choosing to interact with us more frequently than 'search for the nest'...Yipee...Ellie is about to be harnessed and we are going out for some well needed fresh air together..


Sincerest thanks for all of the great advice and support from your team, will post pictures of our beautiful girl soon..


Debbie and Ellie

 

[charmedbyekkie]

That's absolutely wonderful to hear, Debbie!! Glad she's adjusting so well I know for Cairo, walks always help him when he's going through a tough time. Hope Ellie will keep improving <3

And yes, photos are always good

 

[Ellie777Australia]

QUOTE=chris-md


"I’d also caution the cagefree lifestyle. For inexperience owners (and even experienced owners) there can be such a thing as TOO much out of cage time, and it can lead to behavior issues such as excessive seeking of dark nesting holes. It’s certainly doesn’t happen to everyone, but can happen.

Seeing the vicious cycle? Best to teach your girl ASAP to accept even just a larger cage."


Hi Chris-md,


Update regarding our beloved Ellie...coping fairly well without the old nesting box just three days later...had fun going to town yesterday and nearly back to her cheeky self.


Whilst in town we purchased heaps of new toys etc for the large stand up cage that we have. It was set up today and she has willing entered to explore and have a nibble for about 10 minutes...First step in getting her used to a little future cage time as suggested.


Thanks again,
Debbie

 

[charmedbyekkie]

That's great news, Debbie! Outside trips are always fun, aren't they? Hope to hear more of your journey with Ellie

 

[EllenD]

I'm coming in here late to the party, but I see Noodles gave you stellar advice regarding the infertile-egg situation...I see that Ellie laid another infertile-egg, and you already got rid of it after only 1 day because she seemed to get bored with it already, but that probably wasn't the case...A good rule of thumb with a female parrot laying infertile-eggs, is to first remove any "Nest-Box" or other boxes, nests, tents, beds, Huts, etc. immediately and keep them out permanently, as Noodles already stated a "Nest-Box" is not for infertile-eggs, it's for birds who are being bred and need the Nest-Box to raise the chicks, and has nothing at all to do with the laying of the eggs, and only triggers their hormones to lay yet another egg...So never put that Nest-Box back anywhere near Ellie ever again, unless of course you decide to purposely breed her at some point, which I don't advise either.

If you already threw out the second egg that's fine, but if she soon lays yet another egg, that means she has yet to be "knocked-out of breeding season", and that's always your goal when she lays an egg, to knock her body/brain/hormones out of breeding-season, or thinking that it is breeding-season. So if you keep all nests/boxes and nesting-materials out of sight and just allow her to lay eggs on the bottom-grate of her cage from now on. If she happens to lay one in her food dish (which they do sometimes), you should immediately put it down on the bare grate in the bottom of the cage, and then let her lay on it for as long as she wants...There is no "set time-period" or "cycle time" that you need to leave the eggs in, each bird is different and each female will lose-interest in her own-time...What I would advise is that if she does lay yet another egg soon, you let it lay on the bottom grate, let her lay on it, and leave it in there for at least 3-4 days just to make sure she doesn't lay another yet another egg, because what is happening is that she is actually laying eggs from the same clutch AFTER you've already removed any already-laid eggs from the same clutch, and if you do that she won't ever get knocked-out of breeding-season, because she will never feel like she laid an actual 'clutch" that didn't hatch.

So hopefully she's done for now and it's not an issue and won't be again any time soon as long as you've removed all small, dark places that she can get inside of or underneath, both inside of her cage AND outside in your house (such as allowing her to get underneath furniture, behind pillows on the bed or couch, underneath blankets, towels, etc.)....However, is she does lay yet another egg in the next week or so, then realize that it's a whole new clutch of eggs at that point (eggs in the same clutch are typically laid one every 2-3 days), and so what you want to do is to leave the next egg inside of her cage on the bottom grate until she lays a second egg, do not remove it before! The problem is that most-all female birds do not EVER start laying on a clutch of eggs, infertile or fertile, until they lay AT LEAST 2 EGGS, AND OFTEN TIMES NOT UNTIL THERE ARE AT LEAST 3 EGGS LAID! So if you never allow her to properly lay a clutch and then lay on that clutch for as long as she wants to, then she's just going to keep on laying egg after egg after egg. So if she lays one egg and then you throw it out because she's not laying on it, it's simply because she typically won't lay on only 1 egg, it must be at least 2 or 3 eggs. So your IF she does in-fact lay another egg soon (or at any time in the future), is to actually ALLOW HER TO LAY AN ENTIRE CLUTCH OF EGGS, she'll start laying on the clutch full-time after she lays at least 2 eggs, maybe not even until she lays 3 eggs, and then you want to allow her to lay on the clutch of eggs for as long as she wants to (typically once they lay at least 2-3 eggs, then they will only ever stop laying on them and get off of them to poop, or to eat or get a drink, then they'll go right back to laying on the clutch, with typical breaks in laying on them pretty much only lasting up to an hour, usually less....Then once she has laid the entire clutch and has been laying on them, eventually she will realize that they are not going to hatch, she will become bored with them, and one day she will suddenly just stop laying on them and not go back to laying on them...But when you first see her stop laying on the clutch, DO NOT immediately just throw the eggs out, but rather allow the clutch of eggs to lay on the bottom of the cage for a good 1-2 days after she leaves them and stops laying on them, just to make sure she's absolutely done with them and is not going to go back to them. After 1-2 full-days of her not going back to the eggs, THEN just throw them out...And this is what will end the breeding-season she's been in and should totally stop her production of Follicles and Eggs...Hopefully she's completely done for now, but if not don't freak-out, it's normal, it just means she wasn't done laying on the last clutch and has produced more Follicles/Eggs...So this time just wait for her to lay 2-3 eggs and then start laying on them pretty much 24/7, once that happens then you know that once she stops laying on them and stays away from them for at least 1-2 full-days, then she's really done for good for this breeding-season.

***I am not an Eclectus expert by any means at all, nor an Eclectus dietary/nutritional expert, but when I read Ellie's normal daily diet I was a bit concerned due to the regular daily portions of Harrison's pellets/pellets in-general, seed-mix, etc...I'm hoping that one of the Eclectus experts here in the forum come in here to discuss what portion of Ellie's regular, daily diet needs to be fresh Veggies, dark, leafy Greens, and fresh Fruit, and what, if any portion should be pellets, seed-mix, grains, legumes, meat (you mentioned chicken I think, or some other meat and meat bones), etc. The problem with feeding an Eclectus ANY Pellets at all (as well as seed-mixes, grains, legumes, etc., basically anything besides fresh Veggies, Greens, and Fruit) is exactly what Scott already spoke about, they have an extremely long Intestinal Tract which causes the over-absorption of nutrients, and this typically results in Neurological Issues, the most-common one being "Toe-Tapping"; there are a host of scary Neurological signs/symptoms that they display like this, as well as developing Feather-Destructive Behaviors like Plucking and Self-Mutilation, simply because of their diets containing these types of foods, either in portions that are too large, in a frequency that is too often, or in some cases eating them at all. So I'm hoping that some of the very experienced Eclectus owners here who have dealt with both Neurological and Feather-Destructive issues with their own Eclectus' and that were resolved by simply eliminating some things from their diets completely, limiting some things, and increasing the amounts of other things, will swing by here and give some advice on the "Do's and Don't's" of an Eclectus diet, because once these things start, it's typically very frustrating to get them to stop...And as Scott mentioned already, a lot of the Parrot-Food companies totally disregard the fact that Eclectus' just should not eat pellets of any kind, and some of them not only list Eclectus' on their bags of pellets and show pictures of them on their bags of pellets, but some of them actually manufacture pellets that are supposed to be made specifically for an Eclectus, which is totally counter-intuitive, especially when you read the list of ingredients in those pellets...

 

[Ellie777Australia]

[QUOTE=EllenD



Thank you for the info, advice and time spent to assist us...spent two hours responding to your items but lost 'response' in cyberspace when I went to post my response....'timed out' on site or my internet connection...lesson learned...will write it in Word and 'paste in' questions soon...have actioned your advice re 'next eggs' in the meantime...hope that you are sleeping well at this moment...


Kind Regards,
Debbie

 

[Ellie777Australia]

“A good rule of thumb with a female parrot laying infertile-eggs, is to first remove any "Nest-Box" or other boxes, nests, tents, beds, Huts, etc. immediately and keep them out permanently” = Done
“If you already threw out the second egg that's fine, but if she soon lays yet another egg, that means she has yet to be "knocked-out of breeding season"… and just allow her to lay eggs on the bottom-grate of her cage from now on” = Third egg laid (3 day pattern April 11, 14, 17. Today is the 24th and she has not laid any more eggs so assuming that the first ‘clutch of eggs’ have been laid. We had previously removed each egg when she became bored by bedtime. Unfortunately I misinterpreted the ‘duration of time of boredom’ in other responses.

“However, is she does lay yet another egg in the next week or so, then realize that it's a whole new clutch of eggs at that point (eggs in the same clutch are typically laid one every 2-3 days), and so what you want to do is to leave the next egg inside of her cage on the bottom grate until she lays a second egg, do not remove it before! The problem is that most-all female birds do not EVER start laying on a clutch of eggs, infertile or fertile, until they lay AT LEAST 2 EGGS, AND OFTEN TIMES NOT UNTIL THERE ARE AT LEAST 3 EGGS LAID! So if you never allow her to properly lay a clutch and then lay on that clutch for as long as she wants to, then she's just going to keep on laying egg after egg after egg....Then once she has laid the entire clutch and has been laying on them, eventually she will realize that they are not going to hatch, she will become bored with them, and one day she will suddenly just stop laying on them and not go back to laying on them...But when you first see her stop laying on the clutch, DO NOT immediately just throw the eggs out, but rather allow the clutch of eggs to lay on the bottom of the cage for a good 1-2 days after she leaves them and stops laying on them, just to make sure she's absolutely done with them and is not going to go back to them. After 1-2 full-days of her not going back to the eggs, THEN just throw them out...And this is what will end the breeding-season she's been in and should totally stop her production of Follicles and Eggs...” = I had no idea that she waited to sit on the egg(s)! Thank you so much. It is now 7 days since the 3rd egg and we are still monitoring her behaviour. What would the time frame be (‘a week or so’ meaning before or after 7 days) before she lays this second clutch? As previous members have written, an Eclectus female lays ‘all year round’! If we have implemented appropriate measures as per advice, then we should not see anymore eggs unless this is related to us not letting her ‘sit on a first clutch’, correct?


***I am not an Eclectus expert by any means at all, nor an Eclectus dietary/nutritional expert, but when I read Ellie's normal daily diet I was a bit concerned due to the regular daily portions of Harrison's pellets/pellets in-general, seed-mix, etc...I'm hoping that one of the Eclectus experts here in the forum come in here to discuss what portion of Ellie's regular, daily diet needs to be fresh Veggies, dark, leafy Greens, and fresh Fruit, and what, if any portion should be pellets, seed-mix, grains, legumes, meat (you mentioned chicken I think, or some other meat and meat bones), etc.” = Ellie no longer gets pellets as advised by Scott. I have also referenced Scott’s links regarding Eclectus diets and am pretty confident on Ellie’s fruit and vegetable portions. As with most Eclectus parrots, Ellie likes to give some of her food a bath and ‘paint’ the walls/fridge with pomegranates, blueberries etc so not everything served gets ingested lol.


We no longer give her ‘parrot seed mix’ and have eliminated corn from her diet. I am resuming with ‘sprouts’…Ellie did not like them when previously introduced so I will mix then in with her chop. Currently she is receiving kale (daily in her chop) as we have plenty in the garden still.



With respect to legumes/lentils/pulses, Ellie probably has a heaped Tbsp of either daily. With respect to meat/animal protein, she may have one boiled egg with shell monthly, the occasional chicken bone (cooked) and a bit (Tsp) of well cooked chicken once a week (out of molt season). Is this too much? She LOVES her chicken bone! Ellie also has cuttlefish available at all times.


For Chris-md, you will be pleased to know that Ellie has been having a great time playing in her cage with all of her 'safe' new toys. She has also done well with cage door closed whilst I run outside on a few 2-5 minute errands. :60:



Ellie and I appreciate all advice provided from our awesome new parrot forum family,


Sincerely,
Debbie

 

[EllenD]

First of all, I want to say how refreshing it is that you are actually taking the advice of experienced members regarding your bird, it's obvious you care dearly about her and want the best for her, and that's awesome...

Regarding the "chicken bones"...Here's the thing about any bones from poultry/birds...THEY'RE DANGEROUS! Forgetting that your bird is an Eclectus and needs to eat a very specialized and yes, very strict diet every single day or serious health and behavioral issues can quickly result (I praise all you Eclectus owners, because I would be worrying 24/7 about the diet), any bones from a bird, especially poultry bones, whether cooked or raw, are extremely dangerous to give to ANY PET, whether it be a parrot, a dog, a cat, a rodent, etc., doesn't matter...They commonly and often splinter into tiny little pieces, even when they are not even chewed-up but simply bitten-into, and those tiny splinters that we cannot even see half the time will end-up not only in the back of the throat, the esophagus, all through the mouth and tongue (which commonly causes abcesses and horrible infections), but in a parrot they get stuck in the Crop ALL THE TIME!

I don't know where the idea about giving your pet/captive parrot chicken/poultry bones to chew-on/play-with came from, but it's more common than I originally knew it was, and people really need to think long and hard about whether it's worth the risk...That really is the question you have to ask yourself, because I have personally seen 3 parrots in the last 2 years that have gone through long bouts of serious illness that started with loss of appetite/anorexia, vomiting, weight-loss, lethargy, and in one case tremor/seizure activity...In all 3 birds they had to endure all the normal diagnostic-testing like Blood-Work, Fecals, X-Rays (so that also means they had to be sedated with Isoflurene), etc., which in all 3 resulted in absolutely no answer as to what was wrong with them, and they were all thought to be dying and euthanasia was considered in all 3...One of those cases was actually put on Chelation-Therapy with nasty drugs/reagents that made the bird even more sick, because the CAV was trying to rule-out Heavy-Metal Poisoning where the metal had already passed or was not visable on the X-ray (very valid guess and treatment). All 3 birds eventually, as a last-ditch test that is expensive to have done on a bird, had an Endoscopy done where they flushed their Crops at the end of the Endoscopy when nothing but some irritation in their passageways was found, and in all 3 birds multiple splinters and little chunks of chicken-bones were found. One of them had so many little, tiny bits of the chicken bones in his Crop that he had to also undergo surgery to open-up his Crop and actually clean it out/medicate it because the Endoscopy could not remove the bits that were embedded in the tissue (and already had scar-tissue growing overtop of the bits of bones, sealing them in and also causing nutrient digestion and absorption issues for the poor guy)...

It's always been a big deal to not give your dog any poultry-bones at all, people in-general seem to know that they can be deadly for dogs and so they don't give them any, and it isn't that big of an issue anymore...But with birds it's not a thing that we hear about too often, but it's becoming more and more common with bird owners, and we need to educate them just like we did the dog owners about the dangers that poultry-bones pose to our birds...The only thing I've heard people say in-response to this discussion prior is "My bird gets chicken-bones all the time to chew on and he's fine and never had an issue"...The problem is that I've not ever spoken to those people 6 months or a year later to see if that is still the case, as well as the obvious which is that you might spend your life doing lots of risky things without ever being hurt or killed, but that doesn't mean that you won't end-up like all the others who have died before you doing the exact same behavior...

 

[Ellie777Australia]

"any bones from a bird, especially poultry bones, whether cooked or raw, are extremely dangerous to give to ANY PET, whether it be a parrot, a dog, a cat, a rodent, etc., doesn't matter...They commonly and often splinter into tiny little pieces, even when they are not even chewed-up but simply bitten-into, and those tiny splinters that we cannot even see half the time will end-up not only in the back of the throat, the esophagus, all through the mouth and tongue (which commonly causes abcesses and horrible infections), but in a parrot they get stuck in the Crop ALL THE TIME!" = Absolutely no more bones for Ellie. Thank you Ellen.

 

[Ellie777Australia]

Conclusion of this thread...Thank you to everyone who assisted in getting us on the right track with Ellie.


We are pleased to announce that we have had no further eggs; no nest seeking behaviour; she is on a much better diet; she does not have a snuggle hut anymore; she has safer toys; and she now delights in voluntary cage time!


I have been testing picture and avatar upload...so here are a couple of pics of our beautiful cheeky girl taken yesterday...


Thank you,
Debbie and Ellie

 

[Scott]

What a terrific report, and Ellie's colors are so vibrant!

 

[Allee]

I’m so late to the welcome party but I wish you and the lovely Ellie a very warm welcome to the forums. Excellent progress with the egg-laying and nesting and thanks for sharing Ellie’s sweet photos.

 

[Casper223]

I have been testing picture and avatar upload...so here are a couple of pics of our beautiful cheeky girl taken yesterday...

Debbie, Your baby Ellie is "GORGEOUS" Wow!! I would have to wear sunglasses around her if seeing her very long!! and I can tell your a proud Mom too!!! and you should be, plus Ellie is getting all the benefits from your knowledge, what a win/win!!

 

[Ellie777Australia]

QUOTE=Casper223 Wow!! I would have to wear sunglasses around her if seeing her very long!! ...ha ha...thank you! I was thinking the same (need for sunglasses) yesterday when she was outside in the sunlight

 

[Casper223]

QUOTE=Casper223 Wow!! I would have to wear sunglasses around her if seeing her very long!! ...ha ha...thank you! I was thinking the same (need for sunglasses) yesterday when she was outside in the sunlight

Do you use a Harness with Ellie when she's outside??? A breeder I spoke to not long ago wrote a book on about having fully flighted pet birds and I got to say for health reasons, stamina, coordination reasons she made a lot of great points. I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, because I've been really tied up with getting everything ready for my new arrival, but I am looking foreword to reading it. Also it will probably be a great distraction from the normal activities going on inside. I promised I would check it out, and I will as time allows.

 

[Ellie777Australia]

QUOTE=Casper223 "Do you use a Harness with Ellie when she's outside???" Yes, absolutely. Ellie is fully flighted and harnessed for her safety. We live in the mountains on a river...lots of Eagles, hawks, and falcons etc. If she does take flight she wouldn't be safe out there! Plus we have huge Goannas and heaps of snakes around the house so she is supervised at all times.

 

[Casper223]

Yes, absolutely. Ellie is fully flighted and harnessed for her safety. We live in the mountains on a river...lots of Eagles, hawks, and falcons etc. If she does take flight she wouldn't be safe out there! Plus we have huge Goannas and heaps of snakes around the house so she is supervised at all times.

Wow Debbie, I had to "Google" Goanna, Nope we don't have those running loose, and Heaps of Snakes, Nope just a few Moccasins and the most part are King Snakes and Garden Snakes. I see your from Australia, and when you say "Heap of Snakes" those Black Mombas their always showing on TV just comes to mind...... It's not that I'm afraid of them at all, I just don't care to live on the same continent as them lol I just don't know how I'd handle living in a place where so many wild creatures want to eat my pet!!

 

[Betrisher]

This is just FYI, but here's a pic of my daughter when she was eight years old. The goanna sniffed our barbecue on the wind and came to lick the fat off the cooling plate. When Ellie offered him some sausage, he was happy to nom it all up. In the end, he had his (three-inch, razor sharp) claws on her foot and was eating sausage from her hand.

It's a half-grown Lace Monitor, second-largest of the Australian goannas after the Perentie from Western Australia. The only larger monitor is the Komodo Dragon from Indonesia. Just recently, it has been discovered that lizards of this genus (Varanus) secrete true venom in their saliva. No wonder a bite from one almost always turns septic!

Of course, goannas come in all shapes and sizes in Australia and they *all* enjoy meat, eggs and carrion. I'd hate to think of one getting inside my birds' cages!