Need some advice on taming blue front

[SerenaB]

Hello everyone, I'm new and only made an account today, I've been looking on these forums for way over a year for whatever I needed help with though.

Anyways, I'm in need of some help so I made this account, I hope i'm posting this in the right category, since I didn't think it neccesarily fit in the training one.

I own a blue fronted amazon parrot, He's from in 2016, I also adopted him in 2016 because my uncle (the owner at the time) didn't want him anymore, so I bought it from him in the hope of gaining the parrots trust and having a companion, I already owned a green cheek conure I tamed at the time.

It took me about 6 or so month to tame my green cheek, he was also an adopted parrot from an abusive household. As far as I'm aware, my uncle did not abuse the parrot in the sence of ''hitting'' but he did keep it locked in his cage for the 4 months he had him, furthermore he got lots of fruit and ate mainly pellets.

Now, I've had him sincce 2016, and I've spend almost every single day trying to gain his trust, he steps up (most of the time) but he tries to bite me all the time, like warning bites, he hardly ever bites till I bleed, soemtimes I'm lucky and I can scratch his cheek, I kind of start petting his beak and slowly move my hand to his cheek, he doesn't seem to enjoy it though.

when he's on my hand he constantly tries to fly away too, so I think he doesn't feel safe on it or smth.

I should also add he spends most of the day outside his cage on his Java tree in my room, and in the evening when it's time to sleep I put him in his big cage downstairs.

I try to reward him with manga (he loves it) and seeds whenver he properly steps up or doesn't cause a ruckus when outside of his cage, and when he doesn't bite me etc.

I'm just not rly sure what to do to get him more ''tame''? I'm running out of time and I don't realy want to put him up for adoption, since he's been with me for 3 years and I'm quite attached to him, and I don't want to have my mother take constant care of him either when I'm at college soon, I'd love to take him with me but if I find a place that allows parrots they only allow tamed ones...

I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong, I followed advice from a ton of youtube videos and forum posts, but none of it seems to help since I haven't gotten past step up. My friend recently adopted a 3 year old double yellow fronted amazon and he used the same methods as me but it's been 2 months now and his bird is entirily tame, I'm aware that ever y bird is different, but I'm just having a hard time with mine and I'm close to just giving up on him, I love him, I realy do, and the least thing I want to do is get him a new family.

I hope somoene here has some advice, sorry for my broken english, It's my third language and I'm not very good at it.

Here's a video of his bite, it's a bit zoomed in because of my phone camera.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwXXlg0nC2E&feature=youtu.be"]Video 2019 08 13 at 13 00 39 - YouTube[/ame]
(also, Ignore the dog barking, the mailman came to the door)

Also a photo of him

 

[PickleMeDickles]

Hi, I feel your pain! I am no training expert, at all, but I'll give you my thoughts. Study, study, study about Amazon body behavior so you can start reading his moods. And ask lots of questions, this is a great place to start! Try to develop a relationship with your guy. Sit and read to him, go to him often and speak calmly and come with food. Amazons are usually ruled by their stomachs.
As far as training, remember to break any desired behavior into micro steps. This will increase your confidence and his. 2nd, don't set yourself up for failure. Make a plan and stick to it, but don't offer the bird a chance to bite if you know he likely will. So, I would probably start with clicker training. Read up on this, decent free internet sources are out there. Remember to pick some "high value" treats and ONLY use them for this particular type of training. Also, ALWAYS quit training before the bird wants to. 12 5-minute training sessions are much better than 1 30-minute session. I would probably follow a programs something like the one below.

1. Charge the clicker (make sure the bird knows clicker = treat). You could spend an entire day or two just getting this down, but don't overdo. As soon as your sure, by the bird looking expectantly at you for a treat, its time for step two.
2. Obtain a target stick and get the bird to touch its beak to the end of the stick (I use a black chopstick with blue duct tape on the very end). Practice getting the bird to move in order to touch the end of the stick. Remember, "mini steps". Click/treat the bird looking at the stick, moving his head towards the stick, etc., until he actually touches the tip when asked. Apply the command "after" the bird consistently performs the behavior.
3. Get a comfortable perch to teach the bird to step up on. You are probably rightfully nervous about getting bit. This will make the bird nervous about stepping up. Start the process towards teaching the bird to step up. Again, looking at the stick, touching the stick with his beak, touch it with his foot, etc.
4. When the bird "knows" what is expected when you say step up it may be time to transfer that behavior to your arm. Hopefully by this time, you two are much better friends, you have successfully achieved some goals together, you have some body control with the target stick that you can use to encourage the bird onto your arm along with the verbal cue of "step up". Also, you can hopefully look at his body language and tell that he is in a good mood, is unsure rather than upset and anxious to learn. One important thing is to realize that birds use their beak like we use our hands. If you were to climb a ladder you would test its stability and make sure its safe. This is what our fids do before stepping up onto something. They test the surface with their beaks and many people think they are going to bite instead. They pull back, the bird tries to "grab" the service and you can see where this road leads. When we dumb humans mistake this behavior for aggressiveness, massive misunderstanding occur and frustrate everyone. Watch how he steps up onto the stick and realize he will "test" your arm in the same way. Also, micro steps here too.
I am literally just typing down ideas with 2 conures on my head and SassyByrd on my lap so this may be incomplete and totally missing some points. Please spend some time, read up on what is suggested above (and there is SO much more to consider...diet, hormones, environment, etc I suggest you spend your spare time reading up on these topics). You CAN do this, and this bird deserves a chance. Don't give up until you two figure each other out!

 

[SailBoat]

So well stated above!!!
Gaining the trust of any Parrot requires time and commitment. It also requires that you understand what the Parrot is expressing! With great luck, Amazons develop a very clear set of basic body language signals that are provided in the Amazon Forum of Parrot Forums. The Thread is located at the top highlighted in light blue. Sit and read it a loud to your Amazon while you learn it as if it was your primary language. Commonly it requires several readings before the Human starts to understand /accepts its.

Gaining Trust, this requires that you change your Vantage Point!
- It is never the fault of the Amazon!
- It is always the fault of the Human!
By changing to this vantage point, you will more quickly see what you are doing wrong and correct it!

This process is all at the rate in which your Amazon is accepting you based on your ability to provide s/he a reason to trust you!

 

[SerenaB]

Hi, I feel your pain! I am no training expert, at all, but I'll give you my thoughts. Study, study, study about Amazon body behavior so you can start reading his moods. And ask lots of questions, this is a great place to start! Try to develop a relationship with your guy. Sit and read to him, go to him often and speak calmly and come with food. Amazons are usually ruled by their stomachs.
As far as training, remember to break any desired behavior into micro steps. This will increase your confidence and his. 2nd, don't set yourself up for failure. Make a plan and stick to it, but don't offer the bird a chance to bite if you know he likely will. So, I would probably start with clicker training. Read up on this, decent free internet sources are out there. Remember to pick some "high value" treats and ONLY use them for this particular type of training. Also, ALWAYS quit training before the bird wants to. 12 5-minute training sessions are much better than 1 30-minute session. I would probably follow a programs something like the one below.

1. Charge the clicker (make sure the bird knows clicker = treat). You could spend an entire day or two just getting this down, but don't overdo. As soon as your sure, by the bird looking expectantly at you for a treat, its time for step two.
2. Obtain a target stick and get the bird to touch its beak to the end of the stick (I use a black chopstick with blue duct tape on the very end). Practice getting the bird to move in order to touch the end of the stick. Remember, "mini steps". Click/treat the bird looking at the stick, moving his head towards the stick, etc., until he actually touches the tip when asked. Apply the command "after" the bird consistently performs the behavior.
3. Get a comfortable perch to teach the bird to step up on. You are probably rightfully nervous about getting bit. This will make the bird nervous about stepping up. Start the process towards teaching the bird to step up. Again, looking at the stick, touching the stick with his beak, touch it with his foot, etc.
4. When the bird "knows" what is expected when you say step up it may be time to transfer that behavior to your arm. Hopefully by this time, you two are much better friends, you have successfully achieved some goals together, you have some body control with the target stick that you can use to encourage the bird onto your arm along with the verbal cue of "step up". Also, you can hopefully look at his body language and tell that he is in a good mood, is unsure rather than upset and anxious to learn. One important thing is to realize that birds use their beak like we use our hands. If you were to climb a ladder you would test its stability and make sure its safe. This is what our fids do before stepping up onto something. They test the surface with their beaks and many people think they are going to bite instead. They pull back, the bird tries to "grab" the service and you can see where this road leads. When we dumb humans mistake this behavior for aggressiveness, massive misunderstanding occur and frustrate everyone. Watch how he steps up onto the stick and realize he will "test" your arm in the same way. Also, micro steps here too.
I am literally just typing down ideas with 2 conures on my head and SassyByrd on my lap so this may be incomplete and totally missing some points. Please spend some time, read up on what is suggested above (and there is SO much more to consider...diet, hormones, environment, etc I suggest you spend your spare time reading up on these topics). You CAN do this, and this bird deserves a chance. Don't give up until you two figure each other out!

Hi, Thanks for your reply! I acutally picked up a book about amazone parrots today at the store that I'm going to read too, I'm excited to study about them but somehow it had not come to my mind at all to look at body language, I know my conure's body language and applied it to my amazon too (which was probably a big mistake) so thank you for that advice, I'm going to start right away!
I've begun reading my books to him out loud too, starting today then, He's very talkative and even interupts me a lot.
I picked up a trixie target stick at the store today, and started clicker training him today too, he seems to understand clicker = treat a bit now, not entirily, but we'll get there.
He actually does step up without any problems, he hasn't bitten me ever when stepping up, when I move my hand to his paws he gets on right away, I should also note that he hasn't ever bitten me in a hurtfull manner? like, I never bled or anything, not even a pinch, it's more like he holds my finger if that makes sense.
Would it cause any troubles with clicker training btw? he already steps up, so would it be confusing for him to use a stick and clicker with it now or would that just make it easier for him to understand?
your message got me realy motivated on all of this, thank you a lot! I'm excited to start to clicker train him succesfully and build more trust between us ^^

 

[SerenaB]

So well stated above!!!
Gaining the trust of any Parrot requires time and commitment. It also requires that you understand what the Parrot is expressing! With great luck, Amazons develop a very clear set of basic body language signals that are provided in the Amazon Forum of Parrot Forums. The Thread is located at the top highlighted in light blue. Sit and read it a loud to your Amazon while you learn it as if it was your primary language. Commonly it requires several readings before the Human starts to understand /accepts its.

Gaining Trust, this requires that you change your Vantage Point!
- It is never the fault of the Amazon!
- It is always the fault of the Human!
By changing to this vantage point, you will more quickly see what you are doing wrong and correct it!

This process is all at the rate in which your Amazon is accepting you based on your ability to provide s/he a reason to trust you!

Thanks for replying too! I do think he's grown to trust me more over the years, but I probaly never fully understood his body language, I've begun to read some of my books aloud to him today already and started to clicker train too!
I know it's not his fault, he probably has had something happen to him for himn to not trust anyone, I've only been kind to him and I can kind of see that he starts to understand that, i just need to put way more effort into earning his trust!

thank you!

 

[PickleMeDickles]

Good for you! You sound excited, motivated & devoted, the perfect “recipe” for learning the complex body language of Amazons. I watched your video again, and a few things came to mind, especially upon clarification of your description of “the biting”. Your birds biting may very well be just his way of exploring and connecting with you. If your bird wanted to hurt you, you would be seriously hurt. I too had conures prior to my Amazon and initially interpreted SassyBirds “mouthing or breaking” as a bad thing. My conures never did this and her beak was so very big to me. After studying & asking lots of questions, I finally figured out that Amazons touch the world, explore, learn & even have tender moments with their humans through their beaks. The first year I had the Sass, her beak was constantly wrapped around my finger or hand. And like any intelligent child, she constantly tested her limits. She would always start off comfortable and soft, and then would intermittently get too aggressive. The plan I came up with was this: the first offense I would look at her sternly and tell her “too hard, be nice” and hold for 30 seconds or so while I turned my body away from her. Then I would bring her back close and remind her to “be nice”. The second infraction resulted in the same verbal response, but I would calmly get up (all the while with a stern look) and put her in a timeout IN her cage, for 15 minutes or so. When she came back out with me it was ALWAYS with the attitude that all is forgiven and good with the world. You must never hold a grudge. This went on for months, but there was a steady improvement. Now a simple “be nice” reminds her to ease up on the bite pressure. Remember, NEVER yell at your bird. He will just love all the wonderful loud noise and have no clue whatsoever that your upset. The more the two of you can communicate (mostly nonverbal) the more comfortable you’ll be with him staying in contact with you using that can opener on his face! Nowadays, SassyByrd often just “holds” hands with me using her beak, especially when she is extra loving or insecure.
Another REALLY important thing to finally sink in to my thick skull, is that Amazons have a 5th gear, that my conures do not. It is what I call the excitement overload gear. They tend to get very riled up (excited) at certain times or over certain things. SassyByrd will flare her tail, poof her head feathers, pin her eyes, talk really loud. She isn’t upset, just excited. But it’s like their brain turns to mush and they lose any semblance of impulse control. She would most certainly hurt me during these times, although I don’t think she even realizes it, and probably would feel horrible once her brain returned to normal. Kind of like Amazon Temporary Insanity. I have learned to be proactive rather than reactive and don’t put myself into the position to allow a bite. I think this temporary insanity thing is the way she blows off pent up steam, so I don’t discourage it, I just respect it. I’ll even go insane with her, like when she gets super excited during peek-a-boo. But she has her fit of insanity in her space and me in mine. Once she has visibly calmed down life returns to normal. It’s a lot like when I ride my horses. I am constantly aware of what is happening around me to proactively prevent problems. The more successful encounters the better. And try to ALWAYS end every encounter on a positive note with the bird, even if the overall encounter went poorly. The last thing you do will be the thing to stick out to the bird and you don’t want him all alone just thinking about his last awful encounter with you. Leave him with something positive to look forward to. This is especially important when YOU feel bad about the encounter. You are the human and can (must) figure it out and rationalize things. Also, there is a saying among horse people that it’s not a matter of “if you get hurt” but “when you get hurt”, The best riders in the world often experience the worst injuries. Ditto with our large green friends. You WILL get bit. Hopefully not often, hopefully not horribly, but it will happen. You must accept this (while always working to prevent it) and make a resolution to work through it together,
As far as clicker training, I personally still like to teach a step up onto a perch. Then if she is hormonal or having an insanity fit, I can safely transport her if I must. Plus it sounds like your confidence might need a small boost. But, if you are comfortable or don’t want to mess with the “step up” right now, teach him to target first and then a goofy trick, like turn around. There are some great YouTube videos on clucker training this. The more ‘fun” time you spend with him the better. Just ALWAYS quit before he wants too AND use high value treats. Also, have as many spots with perches around your house as possible. Let him help you cook, supervise your morning bathroom routine, watch TV together. SassyByrd even goes to the bathroom with me (along with 2 of my dogs). All the little stuff ads up to a big win! I think there is a kindle book I bought on Amazon called bird tricks. It is chock full of clicker tricks and really breaks them down. If that’s not it let me know and I’ll figure out the exact name. Good luck, your on the right path!

 

[SailBoat]

So well stated!!!
Clicker training was not even a concept when I first started working with Amazons.
I learned a method of working and if needed moving a fully raged hormonal Amazon. I do not teach it as it demands a deep understanding of Amazon body language and a clear understanding of how a crazed Amazon will attack and how to avoid the attack. Sooo much easier to let them unwind and cool-off.

It is most important to remember that fifth gear (love that term) is chemically driven and once it begins, they have no control over it. Seeing an Amazon shortly after, they commonly look like: What the Heck was that!?!?

 

[PickleMeDickles]

Hi Sailboat, this is kind of off topic to the original post, but your statement of 5th gear being chemically driven really hit home! I can totally visualize SassyByrds bloodstream being flooded by angry little nettle looking chemicals and shutting down one part of her brain well lighting up another part! I always conceptualized it as an on/off switch rather than chemicals, but that explanation really completes the picture. Do you have any idea as to what chemical this is and what the evolutionary reason behind 5th gear is?

I have always LOVED animal behavior. I not only wanted to know how to do something with a specific behavior but "why". And then I wanted to know "why" the behavior occurred in the first place and on and on. And a simple explanation would never suffice. When I was about 5 I went to Marine Lane. They trained dolphins with whistles and that made so much sense to me. I started working with my animals, not with clickers but with a particular sound I made with my tongue and treats. I even had my neighbors chickens trained, lol. And I know what you mean about handling a raging amazon. I am like that with horses. I can move with them and have and bring a hormonally enraged stallion back to earth. I have studied horses my whole life, so it is second nature to me. I would NEVER let anyone else near that same horse. With Amazons, I am really just starting to see the whole picture, but then I have spent countless hours reading online articles, bird behavior articles, posts, etc. And I am sure that like with horses, every day you spend with your bird is another day you learn something new. This forum is such a gem, it is a great resource to bounce ideas around and help one another! And thank you for your very insightful and dependable advice!

 

[SailBoat]

Thank you!

The driver is the Fight or Flight response. As you know, this driver is very strong and it demands a choice.

- An overly stimulated Amazon is 'by accident' releasing the chemicals that naturally support /drive the stimulation of the bodies muscles, which support the chosen action. With Amazons that tends to be the fight response.

- Hormonal driven release is triggered the by same driver, but in this case, the Parrot is in mate /nest protection mode and the fight response is the natural selection. Toying with an Amazon in this mode is foolhardy as their system just keeps inducing more chemicals, totally spinning out of any control what-so-ever! Remove the threat and the chemicals slow and than stop.

Note: When the flight response is chosen, the first 3 to 10 seconds of flight is without any predetermined flight plan! As a result, in a home, they tend to fly into windows, etc...

Sadly, very few writings provide linkage between behavior and the drivers that are involved. Most just assume that the reader understands the connection.

 

[PickleMeDickles]

So, this is my rationalization...please let me know if I’m on the right track. So birds, like so many creatures, secrete adrenaline to stimulate a flight/fight response. I would imagine most birds naturally go into flight. But not Amazons, at least not as often. And it sounds like the triggering of the Adrenalin floodgates is much more easily triggered, and it’s often triggered by certain types of overstimulation as well as fear. And I would guess that the human problem is not necessarily recognizing what different “over stimulation” triggers exist, probably because Amazons are much more sensitive to certain triggers? Are other parrot species similar?

An example is when I play peek-a-boo with SassyByrd. I don’t actually hide my face, I just pop up from certain angles and say peek-a-boo with enthusiasm. She loves this game and initializes it frequently. She quickly progresses from excited to 5th gear. I (the human) am unknowingly triggering “protect the nest”, SassyByrd is slammed with adrenaline and off we go! Kind of like a kid on a roller coaster but instead of an excited flight response it’s a fight response.

It has always seemed to me that 5th gear is a stress relief for SassyByrd so I have not discouraged it, I just try to recognize it and deal with it appropriately. What are your thoughts! Am I on the right track with the peek-a-boo example?

 

[SailBoat]

My knowledge base is with Central and South American Parrots with my interests most deeply with Amazons. An Amazon Snob, if you will.

You're on the correct track. But, when considering Amazons, it is a bit deeper /complex. Let's view it this way: Amazons have a love of play and with ease become singular in their focus to the exclusion of near everything else. When you are watching this, they begin to spin-up every faster as their focus drills in deeper. The mind senses a intensive focus and secretes adrenaline. This is the point that Amazons separate from other Parrots as Amazons seem not to have an internal STOP /Halt button. In play, the toy is defeated, or turned into small pieces, or falls-off the surface. When interacting with a Human; the Human pulls back. The lack of a 'target' stops the secretion, the Amazon cools-off.

The Human commonly does not know that 'this time' their play has for whatever reason triggered an adrenaline release. Once again, the great news is that Amazons have these wonderful body language signals that other Amazons (possibly other Parrots) and with hope, the Human sees and halts further stimulation.

Add Mating Season, Lack of Sleep, far too much Sugar (possibly Salt) in their diet and they develop an ever shorter fuse. Far too often, we hear of: next thing I knew, my Amazon was attacking me. It is very common to track back to an Amazon sitting on the edge of rage.

At the end of the surge of adrenaline, it would be common to find one's Amazon in a state of: Stress Relief as the vast reduction of adrenaline is halted and a more normal state of mind returns.

The only flight that is driven by adrenaline is one that begins with fear as the driver. The difference is one is just all out GO and the other is a focused want (food /water, favored Human, etc...) Adrenaline is not needed for normal take-off and flight.

It is important to understand that Amazons have many soft drivers that can 'begin stimulation' in addition to their hardwired drivers which dump adrenaline. Like the difference between continuing to ever greater depression of the gas pedal or the stumping on it. Both will get you going, one just does it much faster.

Warning Signs: Amazon commonly provide several warnings before it all goes very wrong. And the Human is responsible to see each and note the combination and their meaning. I look for at least three. But, the pinning of the eyes to orange is a clear sign that one needs to be paying close attention!

 

[Birdmom12]

This is what "worked" for us... Keep in mind though these birds need constant daily work/routine to maintain everything your growing on....

1- Offer 3 small piles of a snack (Almond, millet, cashew, etc...) From there you will be able to weed out what this birds HIGH REWARD treat it. Once its determined he should only ever be given that treat when he does something you requested. Example, he stepped up with out biting (even a bite to grab on to steady onto your hand) he now instantly gets the treat. Perhaps you walked by his cage and he ignored you (didn't display any aggression) drop him a treat in his dish. Eventually he associates you + his behavior=that treat he craves more then anything!

2- Routine routine routine! Get him on a good meal/sleep schedule if he isn't already. Research the demands of sleep for these guys. Lack of sleep can often result in a bad attitude!

3- Entertainment! Let him be involved in toy making/treat making! find ways to create interesting foraging toys, shredding toys, and other enrichment activities. The more he has to do especially activities that mimic what he would do in the wild help stimulate his mind. Its similar to the saying a tired dog is a happy dog. If the bird has a never ending supply of enrichment toys they should be working that beak, working that mind, and in turn hopefully limiting aggression.

4- Go slow this can never be stressed enough. These large birds don't just sit back and take our crap... if we move to fast they let us know and it can be a hard habit or relationship to repair. Make every interaction with you a happy and positive one.

 

[Laurasea]

Read this article, I think it's helpful
https://blogpamelaclarkonline.com/2018/06/19/teaching-a-fearful-parrot-to-step-up/