Need Help: Accidental Grand-parrontage

[CasaDeMouse]

Hello, All!

Long time lostener, first-time caller!

I find myself in a very weird predicament. I've had some health problems over the last two months, of which I have been hospitalized the last 3 weeks.

We've been fighting the hormonees hard this season, and we missedtm the window for the lupron injection bevause we were waiting for the test to come back to tell us which one we needed to give it to. Thom and Gerry were only 2 and we were told by their vet they probably wouldn't try to lay eggs until their 3rd year.

But

When I got sick I stopped changing around their environment as much with cleaning and general adjustments, they weren't getting indoor "rain" at all, and the person helping me was trying to make them feel better that I wasn't around as much by giving them lots of fresh veggies and eggs food.
I was just informed that I am likely to be a proud grand-parront. No one had said anything but Thommy (who has definitely filled out and definitely is the aggressive one now) will not let anyone into that room without a fight. He doesn't want anyone in there to change out water, set down fresh food, take away old food--nothing. No one has seen Gerry in weeks because what I'm now nassuming is *she* has taken up residence in the dresser and will o ly come out if you're padded up enough to make it all the way to the dresser.

Welp, I was informed that the person heloj me today had "had enough" of the shenanigans and went to find out what is going on.

There. Are. Eggs.

We do not know when they were laid. We do not know when they are sue. They are sitting in a bed of now-shredded clothing and sawdust they have manufactured from the dresser.

I do not even know where to start. I was doing everything i could to keep them from laying (except for keeping them separated because they started plucking until they bled and kept trying to get their necks stuck in the locked guillotine doors [which are firmly vet-taped down so they can't open but they started chewing at the tape until there was wiggling ] to get to each other).

I'm still in the hospital. I was in no way prepared for this because *I* did not leave any small, dark spaces available (I think they left the drawer open when they brought me clothes) and I had been cutting them back to just pellet food so we could try to tame the hormones. I'm not clear what happened to their toys but, apparently, they either were making too much noise for the person helping me or they cleaned them up and didn't put them back or something--so idle beaks, as it were. I thought these were things that they were helping me with but, at the same time, I do know it is time-intensive and they work full-time and don't usually do anything with birds unless I bring them over.

I already know I will be rehoming any chicks that hatch--I am standing firm that 3 is my limit and was trying very hard to stay there. There is a sanctuary here that will help with rehoming and I do not plan to sell them, I just want to make sure they're healthy and go to good homes. It might sound cruel but I kind of am really hoping none of them hatch because the parronts will be able to see everything through on their own and nature can just take its course.

At this time, it does not appear from what I was told (and I have no pictures) that either of the parronts are egg eaters. I don't want to kill any fertilized eggs because it just feels rotten to my core knowing some or all of them may only be a week from hatching. I do want to provide nutritional support to both parronts so that they can come out healthy on the other side--I do not want to go back to naked birds, or have any heart or bone problems.

What are my next steps? Especially not knowing the age of the eggs I'm not even sure what to order because it may be useless by the time it arrives. I do appreciate that the person helping me out was trying to keep my stress low but I wish she had said something weeks ago because I could have bought the fake eggs and disposed of any Day 1 eggs before any attachments were made. These guys are attached to those eggs and have every intention of giving them their best go.

I've been having the medical problems for 7 weeks. I understand that eggs generally hatch between 2.5 and 3.5 weeks. So, if the eggs are overdue and the parronts don't know it yet I couldn't say because I'm at home and there's no way I feel comfortable with someone gloving up over the eggs and potentially dropping their phone on them when they're already feeling a shaky-at-best confidence in approaching the area.

Any advice? What do I need to order? The sanctuary doesn't have any staff that will go in the house without my being there (for liability reasons which, understandable). So, whatever it is I am hoping it will be newb-friendly or something that is hands-off enough to be implemented until I get home. My earliest discharge is probably late next week but, again, I don't know when any of the fertilized eggs might hatch. I also don't know how many eggs. I do know they're hatch mates from an irresponsible breeder who let mom have a clutch of 15.

I also have a third bird who is currently living outside the room as Thommy is hunting her down and nit letting her ear or anything. She's safe but miserable because instead of having a 12x15 room to play in, she's in a backpack cage until the person helping me can get to my house and let her out. I can't wait to get home and get everything sorted, this just couldn't have come at a worse time.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[CasaDeMouse]

The person helping me out said they heard peeps yesterday but nothing today. Should I have them storm the nest again? Or should I leave welled enough alone until I can get in there?

 

[hiriki]

First, correct me if you've already done this, but has the person helping you candled these eggs? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the practice, I know of it not from raising parrots but from raising chickens, I think it's possible you're not aware of it as a method of determining how far along the eggs are so I figured I'd bring it up. It's quite easy to do--if you hold a flashlight behind the egg, it shines through the shell and lets you see a full silhouette of whatever is growing inside. Which, it's important to understand, may be nothing... in which case, there's no sense letting eggs rot in your dresser, and wooden eggs are the best option. If you time it right, like doing it while both parronts are eating a snack away from the nest, and warm the fake eggs before swapping them, the birds truly won't know the difference, so it won't feel like they've been robbed by a pesky raccoon!

I would suggest asking the person helping you to grab a flashlight, gently hold it behind each of the eggs, and take a picture with their phone of the silhouette to send you. I found this page on google--it has a little graphic showing you what chick growth inside the egg looks like: https://incubatorwarehouse.com/pages/egg-candling

Of course, for this to work you will need to let go of some of the anxiety around your helper breaking an egg--you'll need to practice some zen and trust that they'll be gentle!! They'll also need to probably put the conures in a carrier or their cages temporarily, so as to avoid any protective violent behaviors while they're handling the eggs. I'm not sure where you're at, I doubt you're in the midwest USA but if you did happen to be in Illinois I'd offer to do it for you lol.

Once you know if the eggs are viable and have a vague idea of how far along they are, you can much more effectively plan next steps. My understanding is that parrots are usually very good parents without human help, as long as the clutch is healthy, but I have been told by breeders that appropriate nesting material is extremely important to avoid developmental issues during the nest phase of a chick's life. Getting tangled in nesting materials can cause a bird to splay their legs, for instance. But honestly, on a bed of shredded dresser bits and clothes, that probably wouldn't happen (lol).

 

[CasaDeMouse]

First, correct me if you've already done this, but has the person helping you candled these eggs? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the practice, I know of it not from raising parrots but from raising chickens, I think it's possible you're not aware of it as a method of determining how far along the eggs are so I figured I'd bring it up. It's quite easy to do--if you hold a flashlight behind the egg, it shines through the shell and lets you see a full silhouette of whatever is growing inside. Which, it's important to understand, may be nothing... in which case, there's no sense letting eggs rot in your dresser, and wooden eggs are the best option. If you time it right, like doing it while both parronts are eating a snack away from the nest, and warm the fake eggs before swapping them, the birds truly won't know the difference, so it won't feel like they've been robbed by a pesky raccoon!

I would suggest asking the person helping you to grab a flashlight, gently hold it behind each of the eggs, and take a picture with their phone of the silhouette to send you. I found this page on google--it has a little graphic showing you what chick growth inside the egg looks like: https://incubatorwarehouse.com/pages/egg-candling

Of course, for this to work you will need to let go of some of the anxiety around your helper breaking an egg--you'll need to practice some zen and trust that they'll be gentle!! They'll also need to probably put the conures in a carrier or their cages temporarily, so as to avoid any protective violent behaviors while they're handling the eggs. I'm not sure where you're at, I doubt you're in the midwest USA but if you did happen to be in Illinois I'd offer to do it for you lol.

Once you know if the eggs are viable and have a vague idea of how far along they are, you can much more effectively plan next steps. My understanding is that parrots are usually very good parents without human help, as long as the clutch is healthy, but I have been told by breeders that appropriate nesting material is extremely important to avoid developmental issues during the nest phase of a chick's life. Getting tangled in nesting materials can cause a bird to splay their legs, for instance. But honestly, on a bed of shredded dresser bits and clothes, that probably wouldn't happen (lol).

I do know about the candling but they're not comfortable handling the eggs. They haven't gone back to check on the eggs since they went in when "enough was enough" so the only thing I know right now is that "there are eggs" but not how many. They threw the shirt back over the eggs and got away from them because they were worried the parents would reject the eggs if they handled them. If they haven't hatched when I get home, I'm going to try it to see what's up, but that will mean they're probably laid after I got into the hospital which will give me more time. I'm supposed to have the final 2-3 procedures tomorrow with a potential release on Friday, Monday if everything hasn't resolved by then, so there's a part of me that's like, "Please just be laying blanks!"

It's good to know that the fake eggs may still come in handy so I've ordered some to the house. I'm going to see if I can goose the person helping me into doing the candling and pass on what you said. I know they're fragile compared to chicken eggs. But are they like some reptile eggs where if they aren't put down in a particular position it could kill anything growing in them? Like, is there a "top" and "bottom" that has to be rescpected or can they just set them back down where they found them without worrying about orientation?

It's fair to say I have anxiety around them breaking an egg. They really dont' go around the birds unless I bring the birds to them, and they're the type of person who likes to "teach by experience" so they'll withhold treats when they don't get the answer completely correct and then wonders why the birds get bored and start going for her their hands. They're also saying that the male (Thommy) is going straight for her face and hands the moment they open the door and unless they are covered basically head-to-toe is getting just devoured when they go in to change water and bring veggies, etc. One of my worries is that if they go in there with gloves (so that the birds can't bite their hands) the phone will slip and fall onto the eggs. And I'm not confident this person will be able to withstand both Thommy and Gerry going at her once they see them near the eggs. They weren't clear what happened after the parronts saw them at the nest last time which makes me think that she might have swatted one or both off and was afraid to tell me (I don't think they'd hurt the birds on purpose but I do know what it's like to have a beak trying to bite through your eyelid so I do understand so long as no one got seriously hurt). I'll try pressing for more details today and see if they'll consider doing a video chat with me while they do it so that I can try to talk to the birds at the same time, maybe confuse them a little. I know they're stressed in part because I went to work and didn't come back 19 days ago, and they got left with the person who doesn't want them pooing on their shoulder so shoos them off only to be stingy with treats while training. And that's not their fault, any more than they want to be protective of their nests the way birds do. They're also not getting any social interaction outside of the duck-and-run feeding and waterings since the other bird isn't sleeping in there anymore (at least until I go back and can try to re-establish their ecosystem). I know I shouldn't feel any connection to the potential babies because I haven't been there and helped raise them but I do feel guilty that they're in this situation because I didn't ask for the right kind of help when I got sick a couple months back, and I don't want them to suffer a loss because I didn't keep my end of the bargain.

I'm in the Southwest or I'd DM you my address and my helper's phone number! You're so sweet to offer!

I appreciate your help so much. I agree that I need to know more about the eggs to know how to plan. I am worried that the peeping coming form the dresser means at least one has hatched already but hearing parrots are typically good parents really makes me feel better.

I'll see if I can convince my helper to gown up and go in to try again. I don't know that they'll let themselves be caught but if my helper got to the eggs once, they should be able to get in again, right? lol I have no doubt that they can be gentle, I just need them to know they can do it. Again, I'll try to see if we can do it over video call or something and maybe that will make them feel more sure.

Thank you so much!!!

 

[hiriki]

I want to address your question regarding the egg orientation first since that's a direct question with a quick answer: no, your helper does not need to put the egg down exactly as they found it.

Birds are constantly readjusting and turning their eggs under their butts, and even if your helper somehow manages to put the egg down in a weird orientation, the parrot is NOT going to abandon the nest, and will quickly turn it. I don't honestly think there IS a wrong way to put down an egg, but even if there was one, your conures will fix it in short order. Birds don't abandon eggs that have been touched by people, either, that's a wives tale that is probably mostly meant to discourage children from messing around with bird eggs outside and getting weird germs on their hands lol.

Also, if your conures have an adequate amount of calcium in their diet, the shells will be decently firm. You're right, not as hard as chicken egg shells, but they will be hard enough that simply picking them gently up will not likely cause them to break.

All that said, I would really strongly suggest restraining the birds. Do they have cages that they eat/sleep in? I know that plenty of people have "aviary rooms" or "bird rooms" they they reasonably bird proof (removing cables, etc) and maybe that's your situation, but birds that have identified an entire room as their cage can be little terrors for strangers trying to be helpful. Cage aggression where a bird bites hands inside their cage out of violent territorial defense is really common in birds--remove the cage from the equation and sometimes the entire room becomes their territory.

With that context, it really does make sense to me that your helper is dodging divebombing parrots... and if the conures almost never go to their cage, or if there is no cage, it's much more difficult to convince them to go into one for necessary evils like egg candling. Maybe once you're back and they're done nesting, you can look into changing your routine, having them sleep and eat in their cages and wander the room during the day... a routine like that will really help in the future if you need petsitting again. Even with birds that aren't violently territorial, I've seen birds in "bird room" setups having just a super high baseline level of anxiety because any time someone steps in the room it's an invasion of their space, and giving them a sleep cage can immediately improve that anxiety. But for now we have to work with what we've got, and your helper's best bet is if both of them are in a carrier or cage.

If they're able to put food in an existing cage, instead of on a tabletop or whatever, and the birds follow the food into the cage--easy peasy. You'll likely want to put them both in the same carrier and wait until they're both eating to close it... close one bird into a carrier and suddenly they're both onto you and on high alert, the 2nd bird is much harder lol. You can also fill the cage that you use with familiar toys and perches from around the room to make it less scary to approach. If they don't usually eat inside their cage, their regular diet might not be enticing enough for this to work and you may need to get creative. If all else fails, I would still say you're better off toweling them and shoving them in a carrier before you touch those eggs. The chances of the conures getting protective and causing them to drop an egg are super high if they're not closed into a cage of some kind.

If you want, you can tell your helper about me or see if they have any specific questions that I can answer--I've been in a very similar situation. A friend of mine with a "bird room" setup as mentioned above went to the hospital once, and I did some bird help while she was away. In fact... I did actually have to towel and cage the birds at one point. It wasn't easy, her tiels weren't hand tame at the time so I quite literally had to get a large blanket to towel them with, but any questions I can answer to make it less daunting I'd be more than happy to. I'm not going to lie, this might be a really stressful project for your helper if the birds don't go into a cage quietly, but if there's any chance that your discharge will be delayed, then knowing conclusively what's inside of those eggs will make a big difference.

 

[CasaDeMouse]

Thank you so much for the orientation detail. I know I've heard that for repitles and while they're not super-related anymore you never know what got retained haha

They *tehcnically* have a flight cage that is now mostly a sleeping / "I need some space" cage where the birds put themselves when they don't want to be bothered. There is no sleeping cage because The Babies ate all of the coating off of some of the bars last year so I had to remove it so they 1) Didn't get sick from eating the cage; and 2) I didn't want it to rust and that cause problems, either. Which is how we came to the flight cage.
However, I came home one day and could NOT find them. They had figured out how to open the big door (I have the guillotine doors vet-taped down so there are no accidents while I'm gone/not there) and they...moved into some clothes hanging on the back of my door. I tried for 6 months to dissuade them of sleeping there but they would literally stay up at night until I got home from work chewing on the lock I put on their cage, and if I let them out they'd run into the door. So, they've been sleeping feral in a #notsponsored Walmart vest over a Walmart vest over a Walmart shirt. I can get them into the flight cage when I need them to, I just don't know if they're going to allow my helper to do it because they're already kind of tense with them. They also self-quarantine in there because the understanding is if they're in the cage, they're off-limits and I'll put their food and stuff in there. (My kids are so spoiled they got a room inside of a room.) And the other two are usually good about leaving whoever is in there alone...until Gerry started getting ready to lay eggs.

I tried separating them by leaving Thommy out and putting Gerry in (because Gerry can be happy any time, any place) and Thommy spent a week eating off over 40 yards of vet tape off the guillotine doors as well as just slamming his beak against the lock and pulling out his feathers. He was so tired one day from that I had to take him to the ER vet to make sure he was okay because he looked like he was going to croak (just barely holding on to the side of the cage where he could see Gerry but literally only leaning against it and breathing super shallow) but it was just that he had spent all day trying to get through the tape and lock to get to Gerry. I thought if I gave it time and patience, they'd adapt to just spending just enough time together to get the hormonees to pass but it wasn't working. So, I put Thommy in the cage to recuperate and Gerry on the outside but that lasted exactly 1 day because Thommy would not let me grab him after that. The vet kept him overnight to get him resaturated but he was a mess again when I got home and just could not stop biting at my hands even when I wasn't going after him. (When I got to the hospital a few weeks back they thought I was on drugs because Thommy had bit me so many times it looked like I was picking my skin in places!) That was a couple days before I got hauled off by the ambulance, so I don't think the eggs are older than the 19 days I've been here since they didn't have any place to lay until the drawer got opened when my helper brought me clothes.
That said, that room *is* their room. I used to sleep in there at night so the flock could be together until my job became mostly night shift and I didn't want to keep waking them up since waking time can also trigger the hormonees. I still have a bed in there because on days off I like to go lay in there with them and they hang off my socks while I screw around on the internet. But that is their room now haha. (And one day I will find out where they put the flight vest I bought!) They have their perches and play things set up, I have some hanging pots screwed into the ceilings with the toys they like to drop for me to pick up, they have bird feeders on the window so they can eat with the wild birds eating on the bird feeders on the other side (that's one of Gerry's favorite things to do), there's fresh herb plants in there so they have safe greens to eat grown in coconut coir because I can wash the coir and keep mold out of the picture, and the stash of cat jingle balls they don't know that I know where they put it under the bed haha. I even got some plastic pegboard and put up plastic cups, platforms, etc. that lets them have a larger variety of places to land and eat, and then some floating shelves for the same reason (but I can't really hang toys from there as well as the plastic peg boards). I'll be honest, after the 6 months of fighting about the vest and all that stress (Gerry even got those oil-tipped feathers that didn't go away until she molted in February) I just didn't want to keep fighting with them. It was really stressing them out. I tried putting the hanging clothes in the cage, on the cage, in the *closet* (because at least I'd know they were locked in for the night), etc. but they just did not want to sleep anywhere else and I just felt really bad stressing them out that way. I tried moving the cage to different parts of the room, I switched cleaners (I was previously using a weak solution of vinegar and water but I found a Nature's MIracle that said it was safe for birds, and then I also tried some other botanical cleaners that were allegedly pet safe) but they just want to sleep on the back of the door for whatever reason. They genuinely feel the safest there and I can't explain why. (They'll do it on whatever clothing is on the back but their Walmartception is their favorite kit.)

I'm hoping now that they have laid, I can just...take the clothes off the back of the door and just re-establish the flight cage as their sleeping cage. Maybe enough time will have passed between laying and the chicks that they won't feel as territorial about it because their priorities will be different. IDK, sometimes I think they just like to gaslight me. They'll do things like fight about going into their carrier, I'll give up, and then they're all three playing in there. I do want to get them back used to sleeping in the big cage if only for their safety (for times exactly like now, or if there was an emergency [knock on wood] as you're describing), even if they stay the rest of the day in their room. I just can't figure out or recreate the magic of Walmartception on a hollow door for whatever reason. We'll have to see when I get back if I can trick Caroline into sleeping in there first, and then when the other two are done nesting if they'll follow her since birds are communal sleepers.

I *really, REALLY* appreciate you. I'll see if I can get them to warm up to the idea of doing it with help from someone with that kind of experience. My birds are hand tame with me until they go to the vet (in which case they have to wipe their beaks over every square centimeter to re-establish their territory). They get their nails trimmed every 4 or 5 months (usually because they've tired of playing on the wood so their nails don't get as worn down as I would like) but you'd think they were rhinos straight out of Jumanji haha. They do towel well for the vet so hopefully they will towel well for my helper. The Babies having such a stark change does cement for me that they are protecting their nest because normally they'll land on anything and everything that moves, including the corgi-pom mix Thommy likes to try to ride like a horse. They had gotten a little more...snippy before I landed in hospital but I already knew they were going through it with the hormonees so I didn't think much of it. But now that they've laid I'm sure it's 1,000x worse. I feel bad because I should have known I needed more help than I was asking for at the time and I've put them into this situation. I'm just hoping they can come out on the other side of it unharmed. Thommy's chest feathers are growing back in from when I separated them so that's a good thing--he at least has lost enough stress to let that happen. I just don't want to make things worse.

I will DM you if my helper is willing to talk to you directly. If not, I'll let you know if they have any questions!

Thank you for everything!!!

 

[hiriki]

You're so welcome!!! I hope even a single thing I said is helpful for the person looking after your fids, petsitting can be stressful even for people who are comfortable with birds because you're still a stranger to them and invading their home, I can't imagine what it's like for someone who doesn't know a thing about birds. Whatever the case, it's temporary. Maybe she could put some food in the flight cage, walk away, and try to sneak back in and close the door on them while they're eating in there?

I am wondering what kind of flight cage you have? I avoid guillotine doors for exactly the reason you're describing. It's like, the moment the bird realizes they can lift the door, all bets are off. Might as well not even be a door there. Same for the little trap doors you can put food/water dishes through... my main cages don't have those, and my small quarantine cage has zip ties fastening them closed lol. If it's a big cage though, you should be able to cage them together. I have the A&E double flight cage, and I had 2 cockatiels and a conure in it for the longest time (with the divider out). Plenty of space to get away from each other when they're feeling snippy, and they can come back together and cuddle when they're in the mood. It sounds to me, if I understood you right, that you were putting them in separate cages or in a cage with a divider, which was causing some stress? So maybe, rather than the magical walmart vest being the key, what they're really after is the ability to sleep together, and they'd put up less of a fuss if you caged them together? I may have misunderstood though. In any case, good luck!

 

[CasaDeMouse]

Hello! Sorry for not getting back to you yesterday/sooner. Tjey had to do prep for the procedures I was *supposed* to have today but it turns out I have both a leak from the surgery a couple weeks back and TB so they're having to go the long way around before they can finish things up. *Yay, science!* lol



Everything you said was super helpful. I was asking her originally to just stay an hour in the room on the chair reading or surfing the web but Thommy going at them guns hot made them really afraid. I am very grateful to them for going in and doing everything and I think mhy anxiety is more that I just want them to feel as comfortable as I do so that the birds can feel comfortable with them, too

She ended up not checking last night or tonight but since my procedures are delayed and I won't be under anesthesia, I'm hoping we can try to walk through it tomorrow. You've been a HUGE help and I'm so grateful!

The flight cage I have is Yaheetech 69-Inch Extra Large Bird Cage Metal Parrot Cage for Mid-Sized Parrots Cockatiels Conures Parakeets Lovebirds Budgie Finch, Black https://a.co/d/1qo2PWa. It has two rope swings because they don't eat the rope--they just like hanging from it and trying to throw each other off of it haha. Once in an odd while if I'm in there, Thom and Gerry will nap on there where they can watch me, and Caroline will nest down in my hand. Otherwise, they just hang out in there when they need a break from me or each other. There's an understanding that if you're in there, you're unavailable. In that way, sometimes they self-ground themselves because they're running away trying not to be caught to be put in the carrier haha. They have 5 wood branches between 5" and 14" that I also got from Amazon, and then they have some 1" x 8" pine blanks behind it because the cage doesn't go flush against the wall and they were crawling back there and I was worried they'd get stuck, so they crawl and chew on those to get a little taller. Then I have some additional 2" x 4" pine blanks across the top to distract from the delicious paint above the closets they were chewing on. I also pt sokme of the pine paint stirrers behind everything that gets screwed into the wall so that they can do some trick landing on the walls and chew on those without going for the delicious, delicious caulking and paint. One of mhy goals once it warms up over here is to get some of the parrot-safe paint and give the room a few coats becuase Thommy finds it the height of cuisine and the only way to get her to stop is to put wood or plastic on/over it. I'd rather put wood where I can because it's better for their nails but, also, unless I'm planning on just planking all of the walls with paint sticks (so I can more easily replace them), the compromise for now needs to be something that isn't as toxic for them as the forbidden marshmallows haha.

There is no divider in their cage. The way I was separating them was putting one in the locked cage and then leaving one in the open room. First I locked up Gerry until Thommy pulled out all of his feathers and got so exhausted trying to get through the vet tape/main lock; then I locked up Thommy ad left Gerry out but Thommy was still frantically trying to get out. So, I decided to switch tactics to be more aggressive with the random "rain" where ou spray water above them to trick them into thinking it isn't time; I took out their humidifier and turned the heat down to 65 so it felt less like summer; I doubled up on the dark curtains so they got only 8-10 hours of sunlight wihle I was at work (blocking out all the natural light and then usinmg their Vitamin D bulbs [which I replace one every month so that the 3 of them are at different levels of effectiveness, and it kind of changes the light pattern in the room over time so it makes the seasons a little more confusing, if that makes sense]); I took away their frozen veggies and left them only with the fresh herb plants so that they didn't have soft foods (except for the pellets that they put in the water haha); and I restricted treats to ONLY intentional training time and not them doing tricks at random to get treats. But I think because I walked it back when I noticed they were hormonal it was too late, especially when my helper gave them their fresh and frozen veggies as a peace offering and left the drawer open. I should have probably started sooner and been more abrupt.

When I was fighting them about the magical Walmart vest I would put them in the cage together. They have those rope swings (the XXL ones for Macaws so they can sit side-by-side), and I tried draping cloths in there (avoiding putting bottoms in because I didn't want them to get hormonal), I put all the toys lower so that there wasn't visual stimulation when they went to bed, and I just kept thinking that it was a matter of time. I slept in there on the bed next to the cage for awhile, too, so that the "flock" was togeter. But the moment I turned out the lights, Thom and Gerry would start working at the vet tape to get the guillotine doors open and try to break the lock to get out and they would go at it for HOURS. After 6 months, I figured I wasn't going to win. LIke I said before: I even tried hanging the vests in the cage and that was not what they wanted. There's something about beigj up againjst that hollow door in those magical Walmart vests that they loved. BUT I want to remove them now that they're nesting and just not even give them a choice so that way when they're done nesting, they HAVE to go to the cage. *fingers crossed* it will work. And it just might because hopefully they will have had a mini birdie "reset" after becoming parronts.

My helper hasn't heard anymore of the peeps that they thought they heard the other day. If I can get thek to have a little courage tomorrow, I'll update you on what we find.

Thaniks again for everything!

 

[hiriki]

You're welcome again! I hope you're able to get the eggs candled. And I hope things at the hospital get better for you soon and you start feeling better, recovery sucks.

Regarding everything you said about the struggles you've had with the cage, I totally get it. I avoid guillotine doors--I mean, they get that name from the common problem where smart birds will figure out how to open them, but then let go when they're halfway through the opening, and get their head stuck. I've never had that happen, but like I mentioned before, I kind of see them as doors that might as well not even be doors, because most birds are smart enough to figure out how to lift something to get what they want and once they get through them once it's done.

You already have this cage though, and there's no sense throwing out the baby with the bath water, but I don't think vet tape is a good solution to keep those doors shut. I would worry about a bird chewing that much vet tape because anything fabric-like can be dangerous if ingested. Now, in your case, I have a feeling zip ties wouldn't be enough--a few bites from a conure and a zip tie is toast, and your birds sound like they're unusually desperate to get out... But, you could get tiny padlocks to keep the doors shut. Most likely, they'll get into a nasty habit of rattling the doors if they're locked since they'll still be able to move them a bit, so at that point you can supplement with a few zip ties just to keep the doors from moving. That's what I'd do.

It's really odd to me though that they're so desperate to get out all the time though. Hormones would seem to explain it except they do it even when they're in there together. From your little about on your profile it sounds like you have 3 birds total? Do they all go in that cage? It's a large cage, but may be a bit small for 3 conures, especially with one being a black cap. Or is there one who's out all the time regardless? That could definitely cause them to get mad and try to get out, if there's another bird chilling outside the cage.

I'm not sure, it sounds like you have some general troubleshooting to do with the setup. I definitely don't claim to have all the answers, but my general experience has been that birds feel more secure in general and are much more well-behaved with petsitters and strangers if they have "their space," a cage with corners where they eat and sleep. I do think any answer you come up with will have to be equal for ALL birds--so if you're going to cage some of them, you have to cage all of them. I used to send links to the cage I have to everyone at any given opportunity, because when I bought it I got it for like $350 and it's really big... but it's unfortunately nowhere near $350 anymore. It's still cheap for the size, and has a divider, so if you struggle to keep all birds caged at once, it might help. The divider could keep your GCCs and black cap separate... Or, you could put a conure from the mated pair on both side of the divider, keeping them from mating but they can still clearly see each other and interact. I think that would be much less upsetting to them than seeing their mate out in the room having free bird time, and even if they protest the first few days, if they learn that it's temporary and once morning comes they can come back out and be together again, they may accept it. Or if you don't need them separated at all you can remove it also and just have one really wide cage.

Other than that, for the hormones side of things, do they have blankets to hide in INSIDE the cage? Or a corner draped in a blanket? Dark corners and blankets to hide under can trigger hormones. If the birds are getting a full 12 hrs of relative quiet darkness, with artificial lighting turned off, you can remove blankets entirely from the picture. You don't need to cover the cage, fully or partially... and partially covering could give them a dark corner of the cage that their hormone brains decide is nesty. And walmart vest inside the cage is definitely something they could nest in or hide under to cause hormones, and anything either nest-shaped like a basket or easy to hide under like a blanket can trigger hormones.

I haven't seen the setup, but with how drastically hormonal they've been and also kind of reading what you've said, I think the issue is just that they're perceiving an abundance of nesting locations. And then obviously once they get a bit hormonal they start engaging in mating behaviors with each other and it's a self-fulfilling cycle.

Personally, I do think it's unlikely that the veggies were causing the hormones so if they enjoy them I think you can go back to feeding them, it's always good to keep fresh food in their diets. have heard that sugar specifically can have an impact, (although it's never been a problem for me), so cutting back on fruits would make sense, but regular veggies I don't think so. When it comes to soft foods, I think you only need to worry about literal pastes (like apple sauce), or serving things warm. Warm foods can trigger hormones.