Misinformation about seeds

[Free as a bird]

There is this misinformation going around that seeds are not good for our parrots.

Its a crazy claim but many people appear to believe it. Where does this misinfo come from? Why do people seem to believe that processed pellets are better than natural seeds? It's absurd in my mind. Natural is always best everyone knows that.

In the wild parrots mainly eat seeds, their beaks are designed to dehusk seeds so how anyone can claim it's bad is absurd and funny to me.

Iv read that it makes them fat but that is totally unfounded in my experience.

I suspect that this misinformation was conjured up by the manufacturers of pellets in order to discredit seeds and increase their sales but i dont know.

Does anyone have any evidence of seeds being bad for our birds? All I seem to find are unfounded opinions like "it makes them fat" with no logic applied

 

[ImaParrot]

There is this misinformation going around that seeds are not good for our parrots.

Its a crazy claim but many people appear to believe it. Where does this misinfo come from? Why do people seem to believe that processed pellets are better than natural seeds? It's absurd in my mind. Natural is always best everyone knows that.

In the wild parrots mainly eat seeds, their beaks are designed to dehusk seeds so how anyone can claim it's bad is absurd and funny to me.

Iv read that it makes them fat but that is totally unfounded in my experience.

I suspect that this misinformation was conjured up by the manufacturers of pellets in order to discredit seeds and increase their sales but i dont know.

Does anyone have any evidence of seeds being bad for our birds? All I seem to find are unfounded opinions like "it makes them fat" with no logic applied

Here's an entry from a vet manual that you could look at:

https://www.msdvetmanual.com/manage...otic-and-zoo-animals/nutrition-in-psittacines

Hope this helps!!

 

[wrench13]

I think you are over simplifying the common idea. If you serve a mix of seeds, as is avalable from most pet shops, parrots will pick out their favorite ones, usually the sunflower seeds, and eat very little, if any , of the others in the mix. Not to say that even if they ate all the different seeds in an all seed mix the bird would be healthy. Pellets which have a good mix of seed and other nutrients can provide a broader spectrum of foods that the parrot can't pick thru to eat only his favorite. Personally I serve up some nuts, pellets and Nutraberries, which do have some types of seeds in them, and a healthy amount of chop, every day. Honestly, Salty eats more of his chop then anything except the few walnuts I give him - those are always gone by nighttime.

 

[texsize]

I would divide my birds in two.
My Cockatiels evolved as ground feeders mostly eating seed.
At least that’s my understanding of them and video I have seen of wild cockatiels down under.
But I have to doubt they would run across many sunflowers plants growing in the wild.
I have no problem giving my Tiels a healthy seed mix with pellets that they eat as ell.

My Amazons.
I have not seen much study of Amazon’s behavior and eating habits in the wild. Living mostly in the canopy of heavily forested and difficult to access areas.
But I would think there naturally diet would be primarily fruit and plant matter (leaves, flowers, stems and such).
In the wild an Amazon parrot would easily burn off the energy of high sugar content food.
In a captive environment it’s difficult to give them enough exercise to burn off the calories of what would be a normal (wild) diet.
And there is a nother problem giving them fruit.
but this is off topic of seeds.
My Amazons get seed mix as well bet no sunflower seeds and they get nuts sometimes too.

 

[chris-md]

I couldn't agree more, especially with my friend Wrench. You're oversimplifying, not to mention generalizing by grouping all "wild parrots" together as seed-eaters/granivores. Parrots like eclectus and lories will suffer a significantly shortened lifespan on an all-seed diet compared to the true granivores like budgies and cockatiels.

"Seed diets" in pet parrots are usually obscenely high in fat, and usually mixed with the same common mix of sunflowers and safflowers as the primary ingredient (ingredients are in fact listed in order of most common to least common on the ingredients label; sunflowers and safflower a dirt cheap and readily available, so make a great base, so they think). Texsize perfectly explains why this is horrible: our birds don't get the exercise their wild brethren get in order to burn off that extra fat.

So they aren't getting great diversity in diet, and what they do get is high in fat. This is a one way ticket to fatty liver disease. Plus all those excess calories can really be a huge hormonal trigger for so many birds, leading to behavior problems on top of everything else.

The poor reputation derives not from pellets, but from people who overdo it and the deaths they rack up in the vets office. Seeds ARE healthy...in moderation, as with everything else. But your average bird owner simply doesn't know view them like that, and don't feed them with such intention and forethought. So you really have to lean into the "DONT, THEY'RE BAD!" and let people moderate from there.

 

[SailBoat]

Okay, much stated with much of it being miss-informed or not a complete picture of reality.

First, Pellets is 'dead food' as they are heated above the point of killing off all the bacteria to assure very long shelf life and then chemical variations of minerals, vitamins and other additives fill in the balance. They honesty represent a good 'supplement' to a health diet and they are recommended in limited numbers for Eclectus.

As stated, Pellets make an excellent supplement to a very healthy diet defined for your specific Parrot. FYI: The most important thing regarding Pellet Manufacturing Facility it is Classified as "Human Grade!!"

The Term Seed, just SUCKS!! As it is used to define everything from what is shoveled off the mixing facilities floor to rejected shipments to Human Grade Mixing Facilities, which is commonly end of season stuff shoveled out of the fields, where they transfer it to the trucks. This product is commonly found on sale (really cheap) for "Wild Birds".

Vet's push pellets in the hope that some of their clients will mix it in with that cheap Wild Bird seed they are giving their Parrots! FYI: Ever notice that your Vet recommends the Brand they carry?

Clarity is the Problem with the OP's position. As defined above, as the term SEED SUCKS!

The reference to specific species and the natural Range is excellent, as what one provides a Tiel is Very Different from what one would provide an Amazon and both are not even close to what one would provide a Eclectus. As so wisely stated, each group have specific needs still in place from their Natural Range!!

So, what define a 'Healthy' dry food Diet for our Parrot!!

Whether ground feeder, full ground to top of forest feeders, to the mineral, vitamin and protein POOR environment of an Eclectus. Clearly each have specific dietary needs!! Clearly, to provide our Parrots with a Health, Fresh Diet is not as simple! It requires knowledge and an effort on the part of the owner to assure that what they are providing meets their needs as define from their Natural Range!

With that information in place, I will provide a couple of Tools and Indicators to your finding what is a healthy dry diet for your Parrot.
-1 Assure that what dry food you provide is processed /mixed in a Human Grade Facility!!
-2 Assure that what is contained is from Farms growing for the Human Market not an Animal Market!! Normally, if it is processed /mixed in Human Grade Facility, they will only buy from Human Grade Farms.
-3 It is a very good idea to limit sunflower seed to any Parrot as to my understanding sunflowers are a Northern Hemisphere plant and like Corn was taken to the Southern Hemisphere as a result, Parrots, as a species, did not and rarely have them available within those Natural Ranges even today.
-4 No Added Color, Sugar, or Salt!
-5 No Peanuts as they are in ground grown nut, which like #3 above are not natural to the Southern Hemisphere!

As a rap-up to this quick review of the topic of this Thread. Some of what is said is correct and some of what is said is wrong!

I have spent my life with Amazons and have found that they have natural ranges that cover all of South and Central Americas and the Islands between them. With the exception of the mountains and the deserts they are well represented near everywhere and as a result have one of the widest diets of any other Parrot of the Southern Hemisphere.

What natural grows within the natural range of your Parrot is an excellent guide to a healthy diet for your parrot.

The wet side of all Parrots diets can be well support by visiting a quality Grocery Store, which of course sell only Human Grade.

This clearly is not a complete document as I have left segments out as my reason is to define the Good, Bad and Ugly about the Dry Food Side of our Parrots diet!

 

[saxguy64]

Speaking as just a member, not a mod, I honestly can't figure out what you're looking for here. You specifically asked for an explanation. Members have provided the explanation you asked for, yet you refuse to accept simple logic in those explanations. So why bother to ask then if you're already convinced no one else's answers are valid if they disagree with your own opinion?

 

[Free as a bird]

Speaking as just a member, not a mod, I honestly can't figure out what you're looking for here. You specifically asked for an explanation. Members have provided the explanation you asked for, yet you refuse to accept simple logic in those explanations. So why bother to ask then if you're already convinced no one else's answers are valid if they disagree with your own opinion?

The claim that seeds are no good cos their high in fat is false and has been debunked

 

[hiriki]

The claim that seeds are no good cos their high in fat has been debunked

Lmao you can't say it's debunked simply because your birds aren't fat, if you look at the nutritional breakdown of seeds found in seed mixes they're quite literally high in fat

 

[saxguy64]

The explanations provided didn't say seeds are bad. Just that feeding nothing but seeds isn't a balanced diet, and provides more calories and fat than captive parrots have the ability to burn. Moderation, and an appropriate varied diet was the point. Also, as stated, all seed diet for species that don't eat them in their natural environment would absolutely be a bad thing. So... Sorry, not "debunked."

I notice the determination to "debunk" anything contrary to your own theory, however avoiding answering my simple question... Why bother to ask others to weigh in if there's zero respect for them bothering to answer? Sorry, I just don't understand the motivation.

 

[Jcas]

I too was puzzled when I first started hearing that “seeds are bad, only feed pellets.” Wild budgies eat seeds, so why couldn’t my pet budgies? I researched for hours on end and learned a few things.
1) vets started pushing pellet diets a decade or two ago as they saw many birds on a limited seed diet (ie. mostly sunflower seeds) who were malnourished. It was a lot easier to tell clients to feed pellets than to convince them to start mixing up batches of fresh chop, and feed high quality seeds and whole grains. And the pellet diet did improve those birds’ health as it was much more complete than what they had been getting. This helped fuel the idea that pellets were best.
2) As other posters have noted, different species of birds have different dietary needs based on their area of origin. Birds like my budgies and your cockatiels naturally have a more seed heavy diet and thus will probably do better with more seeds than some of the South American species, for example.
3) Feeding one type of food to exclusion is not healthy for any animal, including humans. Wrench13 pointed out that in a seed diet, some birds pick out only what they like and that leads to nutrient deficiencies. It’s important to pay attention to what your bird is actually eating. While my budgies eat a fairly seed heavy diet, they also love their veggies, which help fill in nutrition gaps that might be left by the seeds.
4) All animals should get fresh foods. These are a natural part of every wild animal’s diet.
5) The vast majority of pellet diets consist largely of corn and soy and have sugar and artificial flavors and colors. These are not a natural part of the diet for most of our pet birds’ wild counterparts. Interestingly, the highest quality pellets like Tops and Harrison’s actually contain large amounts of ground seeds, including the often vilified millet and sunflower seeds.
6) Psychologically, the action of shelling and eating seeds ( for seed- eating birds) is very satisfying for birds, as this is a very natural behavior.
7) A very wise veterinarian taught me, “ if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Figure out what works for you and your bird and roll with it. But always be willing to learn!

 

[onamom]

In addition to the points above, I personally don’t mix seeds with my bird’s food because it is a very high value food item and I believe in using that as an opportunity for foraging or training vs just dumping them in a bowl. My bird does eat some seed, but she also eats pellets, chop, and sprouts. Seed is exclusively used in foraging toys and during training because this gives her more enrichment. It’s just like how you wouldn’t dump dog treats into a dog’s food bowl and offer it as a meal. Instead you give it as a treat and use it to help train your dog. Same concept for me.

 

[Free as a bird]

The explanations provided didn't say seeds are bad. Just that feeding nothing but seeds isn't a balanced diet, and provides more calories and fat than captive parrots have the ability to burn. Moderation, and an appropriate varied diet was the point. Also, as stated, all seed diet for species that don't eat them in their natural environment would absolutely be a bad thing. So... Sorry, not "debunked."

Please stop misrepresenting me I never said to feed them only seeds.

I'm referring to the claim that seeds (of any amount) are bad for my birds.
That is misinformation

 

[saxguy64]

Aaaaaaaand no one here has said that seeds in any amount are bad for birds. I haven't misrepresented anything. I simply asked why bother to ask a question if you have no interest in having it answered. It's a waste of everyone's time, and plain disrespectful to those who were kind enough to spend that time.

 

[Keet_Krazy]

So if a seed diet is not good for my tiels cos their "high in fat" then my birds should be fat. Right. Let me check...

Their not fat. Neither was any other bird that I or my parents have owned.
So that argument is debunked.

Most misinformation is driven by money and I suspect this is no different.
Fact is there is nothing wrong with feeding a seed eating bird seeds.

I give my birds a mix but they don't touch the pellets its like they know it's fake food

You haven't debunked anything. You cannot see the fat that may have (or highly likely will if a high seed diet is continued) developed on their liver. Fatty liver disease is not visual.

Seed is only one part of a diet, as is pellets, as is fresh food. Parrots have been in captivity a relatively short time compared to some other animals. We truly only know a faction of what their dietary requirements are, add the complexity of hundreds of unique species as has been discussed.
I actually do encourage feeding seeds, to granivores and always in moderation.
I will also not discourage pellets (even some of those bright colour "sugary" ones) because they have saved birds lives, and because some of the bigger brands are backed by decades of research.
Every bird's nutritional requirements is going to vary due to so many factors, it'll never be a "one size fits all".

 

[Greenhouseparrots]

I struggled for three years with hormonal issues with my conure. Ever since I got her she's been hormonal but it slowly got worse, to the point where I couldn't look at her without her trying to attack me. I had her on a diet of chop, seed and pellets, and I tried to keep it at equal ratios. Her seed mix consisted of a variety of herbs, dried vegetables, flowers, and a huge variety of seeds (not just millet and no sunflower seeds at all). She's always had a probiotic supplement too, access to an outdoor aviary almost everyday except in the coldest part of winter (maybe three months a year), and I planted loads of safe plants in there for her to nibble on (fresh herbs, flowers etc.). I had her on a 12 hour night sleep cycle for most of the three years I owned her to try and stop the hormones, but she became cage aggressive due to the cover (which blocked out all light) so I stopped doing that and she improved a little. I reduced her seeds to one teaspoon a day, and then half a teaspoon a day and ensured she foraged for it the get the mental benefits of that but she was still hormonal. She was also extremely unhappy. She would scream all day long for something but I couldn't figure it out. She'd scream whilst I was training with her, which she loves, whilst she's out of the cage, whilst she's outside. I even asked on here if some conures are just unhappy and simply scream all day. A vet couldn't figure out what was wrong and she just progressively got more and more unhappy.

Then my other conure started moulting and some feathers were growing in the wrong colour (orange and they should be green). So I started looking at diet again since this conure had no problems and was happy and I didn't want her to go down the same route. I came across this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23156977/

And I cut all seeds from all of my birds diets. They now get 75% pellets and 25% chop. My conure is completely different now. She's actually happy, she's stopped attacking me constantly and she plays with toys again! She's even come over to me just to sit on my shoulder and relax for a few minutes without me having a treat, something which she's never done in the three years I've had her. She forages for pellets, which for some reason she loves, and she still loves her chop. I haven't really given her any seeds since then, other than to test it and a few hours after giving her seeds she started behaving aggressively (whilst she was eating them too as she wouldn't let anyone near them) Her feathers are growing in really nicely too and I didn't realise just how bad they were before.

There's obviously some seeds in the pellets which she eats but I don't believe she needs more than that. All the talk about a "natural diet" is a bit overrated I think. No parrot in the wild is going to be eating carrots or peas or broccoli or courgette or whatever foods we feed them. And I think it's impossible to give them exactly what they would eat in the wild, plus they're not living in the wild anyway. I personally have a diet quite similar to my birds and it's the only diet that gives me enough energy to go about my day (I drink the huel shakes which is basically pellets for people, with a couple of meals of proper food). Processed food isn't bad, and most food is processed to some degree anyway, you just have to be aware of what you're doing .

 

[Free as a bird]

Aaaaaaaand no one here has said that seeds in any amount are bad for birds. I haven't misrepresented anything.

Aaaand you just misrepresented me again.
Your good at that. Perhaps read a bit closer cos I never accused anyone on this thread of that thank you very much.

 

[Free as a bird]

I've finished work and had time to read every ones posts.
Thanks to everyone who gave their option, there was interesting info in there and bare with me as I try to address your points.

First of all as some of you pointed out not all parrots are granivores. Thank you chris-md I didn't even know there was such a term.
I'm talking about these granivore parrots and the idea that one should not feed them seed at all because it's somehow bad for them.

It was interesting to read about human grade and animal grade foods. Thanks to sailboat for that info.

Sailboat also mentioned the possible conflict of interest that our vets may have. I hear ya. That was in my mind too.

All in all most of us are in agreement that a granivore parrots should eat at least some seed. A balanced diet is preffered. Im not anti pellet. With my birds I always have seed mix with pellets on offer. They hardly touch the pellets, they seem to know its fake food. Their favourite other foods are bread, rice and potato.

Their weight is always within a few grams which is why I don't think they eat as much as they do in the wild where they fly more and have to eat more. I've seen huge and small flocks of different types of cockatoo foraging in the ground for hours while I'm fishing and watching them. They sure eat heaps more in the wild.

I know of granivore parrots living to old ages in captivity eating a seed based diet, so this claim of fatty livers is not in line with my many personal experiences and observations of my granivore birds and that of others.

Some people (not on this thread, other people) take this "fatty liver" claim and just say "it's fattening" for their bird so they only feed them pellets.
I see how the misinformation I heard actually came from this other fatty liver opinion to begin with now.

Anyway thanks again to those of you who gave some food for thought on this topic

 

[saxguy64]

Aaaand you just misrepresented me again.
Your good at that. Perhaps read a bit closer cos I never accused anyone on this thread of that thank you very much.

Perhaps you should read what I said a little closer, and pay attention to the actual context. I didn't say anything about accusations, nor did I imply that you said to feed only seeds. That was part of the explanations you asked for, by other members, who also never said you did. No misrepresenting involved on my part, only pointing out your own language, original premise, and insistence that you are 100% correct by dismissing opposing information and declaring that information debunked because of your own limited experience and opinion. Back to my only question, still unanswered, why bother to ask if you feel you already know the answer? I still don't see the motivation. Perhaps arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

[chris-md]

Heres the problem, and why Saxguy has a point: You are reading/listen to respond to "the other side", not reading to understand "the other side". That is not in character for this forum which values honest and collegial exchange of ideas, not blind rantings. You haven't debunked anything, and the fact that you keep saying things are debunked means you aren't paying attention.

You have fallen prey to selection bias: just because you personally haven't experienced issues with fatty liver disease doesn't mean it isn't a rampant problem. A search of this forum will yield reams of experiences with fatty liver disease.

In short, I agree with Saxguy here. At this point you're throwing stuff on the wall hoping it retroactively sticks after having been called out for your poor approach and unsophisticated/unnuanced logic to the topic at hand.

Might be best to leave this topic be at this point.