Licking inside beak

[Anansi]

We must've been typing at the same time, Laura. The baby food idea sounds great!

 

[junglenutcracker]

Katie, I see you are from Montreal which is about a few hours from where we are. Can I ask you where you got Jasper from? We have been looking for a reputable breeder ourselves.

Hope he gets better real soon, as other posters have said...Jasper has built himself quite a fan base on this forum!

 

[katie_fleming]

Organic baby food, there's an idea! I'll see if I can find some today. He doesn't like oatmeal otherwise I'd be giving him that, so I'll try the baby food by itself first to see if he likes it.

He opens his beak no problem for the syringe but I guess it tastes bad which is why he shakes his head. The vet tech said basically you put your thumb/pointer around their neck, but then turn your hand so your thumb is essentially under their beak (kind of like a little rest for them). Does that sound right? I'll avoid this method for now, but it's good to know how to properly hold him like that if needed.

junglenutcracker: I purchased Jasper from Canadian Bird Breeders The breeder's name is Gwen and she was excellent. Jasper was extremely well cared for, he came to me as a little sweet, very gentle baby. He was flown here and his carrier was well packed and shipped with extra food/etc. If you have any questions let me know.

Edit: I just want to say how proud I was of Jasper yesterday. During the physical exam he was an angel. No biting whatsoever, didn't make any noises, was calm and happy. I told the vet I had towel trained him and showed how I did it. Wrapped him up in two seconds without any issues at all. Other parrots I saw there were screaming and giving them a hard time even in the waiting room. I'm so glad I took the time to teach him this simple thing - it made his time there much easier.

 

[katie_fleming]

Just got back from the store. Found apple cider vinegar no problem.

As for the organic baby food, I went to the organic grocery store where I buy most of his food but they don't sell baby food. Metro didn't sell organic either :/

So I bought him a Heinz jar of baby food. Says strained, banana grape plum. Ingredients: banana puree, grape puree, water, plum puree, lemon juice, ascorbic acid

Is this ok to give him?? I have no idea where else I could look for organic baby food close by.

 

[labell]

I am surprised it was so hard to find even the smaller store that isn't geared toward organic has a small section of organic baby food local to me. The kind you bought should be fine for now but you don't want too much sugar to feed any unwanted bacteria that may lead to more yeast. Next time I would see if you can find more veggie based ones. Peas, green bean or kale would be great.
I am sending good thought to Jasper that his tests come back okay and that you and the vet can get to the bottom of the issues he has been having.

It is great that he is opening his beak for the syringe just keep in mind eclectus even when hand feeding babies don't have a really strong feeding response so just take it very slow and let him swallow and breathe in between pushing the plunger.

 

[katie_fleming]

I can always go back and pick a different one, it's just downstairs. I'll try and find a more vegetable-based one.

Thanks for the tips on the syringe. I am only doing a drop at a time and giving him lots of praise. Fingers crossed tonight goes better! I'll go grab a couple different types of baby food soon.

BTW once you open baby food how long is it good for??

 

[labell]

In the frig no more than 3 days. Plus I would let the portion you are going to use get a little closer to room temp before you give it to him. Most birds don't like cold food, mine don't anyway.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks. I went back and got him two types: green beans and carrots. Didn't have a huge selection. I find it funny how the baby stuff is with the pet stuff in that store.

Hope he likes it, I'll give him a taste without medication first then sneak some in there after if all goes well.

Appreciate all of your help thank you

 

[katie_fleming]

I'm so frustrated Jasper ate a bit of the baby food but I guess because he's not used to eating off a spoon he was more interested in biting the spoon instead.

So I put it into one of his little food cups. He licked a bit but didn't want anymore.

I covered an almond sliver piece in it and he ate most of it I think.

I have no idea how much he ended up eating but I'm so frustrated. I need to get him his meds but it's like he KNOWS.

Maybe because I'm doing it on the bathroom counter.....I don't know.

I'm worried about the morning this week with having to get ready for work in the mornings. I'll have to get up earlier but I'm not sure what else to try.....

 

[Anansi]

What's his favorite mashable fruit? Most any fruit can be pulped, right? So how about if you take whatever it is, let's say papaya, pulp it, place the mash onto 2 of your fingertips, saturate with a few drops, and then offer your fingertips to him? The natural tendency would be to kick everything off your fingers, right?

If that doesn't work, you'll just have to force him. The way your vet describes it sounds okay, except that I try to have the palm of my hand kind of cradling the nape of his neck so that his head is also supported and held firm by the cupping shape of your hand.

 

[Ann121266]

Glad to hear Jasper is OK, even though your bank account is not! The avian vet hospital in Montreal is very expensive, I am shopping around for better prices around the Montreal area for a good avian vet. My BHC Ralphie is molting right now but he is due for a check up when he is feeling up to it!
BTW I also buy the organic baby food and mix it into the birdie bread I make for Ralphie, he HATES veggies and I found it was a great way to sneak them into his diet!

 

[katie_fleming]

What's his favorite mashable fruit? Most any fruit can be pulped, right?

You're a genius. I'm glad I checked email when I first got up this morning.

He loves grapes and pomegranate so I quickly mashed up some grapes. I brought him to the bathroom counter again (we never go in there unless it's for a shower) but since the medication stains I want to keep doing it in there if possible.

Anyway I put a little bit of grape on my finger, one drop, and he ate it like a pro for the most part. I think some of the medication soaked onto my finger instead or he didn't get all of it, but MUCH better.

And, I also gave him a few sunflower seeds in-between as well (with a good drop of meds on it). He WAVED (his latest trick, I have to upload that video still!) to get them each time. YES.

He didn't get all of the meds but this was the best yet. I will definitely do it this way again tonight.

Thank you for your help

 

[Anansi]

Great! I'm so glad it worked!

And I'm looking forward to that next video.

 

[katie_fleming]

I am so proud of him. Taking his meds like a pro and beak scraping and waving to get it.

I can now squirt a little drop in his beak and stuff a treat/piece of fruit in there immediately and everything is good.

What a RELIEF. Thank you all for your help. I think I'll make a video of this to try and help other parrot owners. This is much better than forcing it.

 

[Anansi]

Good going, Jasper!

Any word on those other test results?

 

[katie_fleming]

Not yet... if I haven't heard by tomorrow I'll give them a call. Not sure where they had to ship them to.

 

[katie_fleming]

Just heard from the vet and I'm going to paste the entire email so you can see:

I am happy to report that Jasper is doing great as far as his tests. I am just waiting for one culture result before sending you the file. In the meantime, the only thing that I am a bit worried about is that his calcium is slightly low. Since seeds mix are low in calcium, that is not unusual to see on birds not on pelleted diets, but I would like to switch him on something more nutritionally balanced.
There is a lot of unsubstantiated myths on Eclectus nutrition. After careful research, there are NO scientific papers saying that Eclectus’ should not be fed pellets. Their GI tract is the same length as others and most of them do well on pellets. There is no substantiated research saying that they absorb more from their GI tract and that they are at higher risk for toxicity which would actually need levels of nutrients to be MUCH higher than what can be found in pellets. Vegetables and fruits actually contain more vitamin A/kg (which seems the be the main component complained about) than pellets. None of the websites or forum that encourage not feeding pellets has references or papers to prove their theories. It is mostly hearsay or the experience of one that became a mantra. Just like people with celiac disease cannot eat gluten doesn’t mean gluten is bad for ALL people, it isn’t because one Eclectus did badly on one pelleted diet that means that they shouldn’t be getting any. If you decide to not give any pellets to Jasper, please let us know so I can find a veterinary nutritionist to create a balanced diet for Jasper.

In the meantime, here is what I recommend for Eclectus’ in general:
Pellets: 40-50% of diet.
oRecommended brands: Harrison Lifetime, Lafeber or Tropican Lifetime.
oI would stay away from Zupreem since I am not impressed by their quality and the artificial coloring changes the droppings color of birds.
Seeds: 10-15% of diet.
oI researched the Volkman Eclectus seed mix and the main seed in it is sunflower seed, which is NOT recommended. This is very high in fat and contains no nutrients. I also do not recommend dried veggies or fruits in diets.
oRecommended seed mix: Abba (which we have at our clinic) or Perroquet Charlie w/o sunflower seeds. Neither of these contains any supplements (which I do agree is useless for a bird that is getting a balanced diet otherwise).
Vegetables: 30-40% of diet.
oDark green, orange and yellow preferred, but variety is the key.
oAvoid iceberg lettuce
Fruits: 10-15% of diet.
oOffer mainly “exotic” fruits such as mangoes, papaya or pomegranate
oLimited amounts of grapes, apples or pears since they are high in sugar, but contain only small amount of important nutrients.
Treats: nuts such as almonds, sunflower seeds, millet, yogurt, bread, pasta

I also did some research on toe-tapping. There isn’t any scientific research done on it, but many avian veterinarians across North America recommend feeding Eclectus with pelleted diets and they have actually seen a reduction of toe-tapping/wing flapping in the past 10 years.

Since you and Jasper have had a bad experience with pellets, I recommend that we take it slowly. First, let’s switch him over to a more balance seed mix over the next 4 weeks.
Week 1: 75% Volkman and 25% Abba or Charlie
Week 2: 50/50 mix
Week 3: 25% Volkman and 75% Abba or Charlie
Week 4: 100% Abba or Charlie

After the transition is complete, monitor Jasper for 4 weeks and keep track of the date and time of toe-tapping behavior in a journal. The little book you already have would be perfect for this. Once we have a baseline for Jasper, we will try incorporating pellets to his diet.
Month 1: 10% of the diet made of pellets, 30% seeds, 50% vegetables, 10% fruits. If no increase in toe-tapping is noted, continue de transition.
Month 2: 20% pellets, 20% seeds, 50% vegetables, 10% fruits
Month 3: 30% pellets, 20% seeds, 40% vegetables, 10% fruits
Month 4: 40% pellets, 10% seeds, 40% vegetables, 10% fruits
Keep monitoring toe-tapping during the transition. Wait at least one month before deciding that the toe-tapping frequency has increased so we have a better average.
If the toe-tapping does increase during the transition, please give us a call first. We will discuss the plan for Jasper. This will probably be to go back to the previous quantity of pellets that he tolerated, but I do want to make sure this is the appropriate plan for him at that time.

 

[katie_fleming]

I received his results. I'll paste them here..some say low/some say high. Not sure really what they mean.

[ OBJECTIVE ]
Apparence:
Body score : 3/5, Bon,
Comportement : Alerte, slightly timid but warms up if taken slowly
Condition : Bon,
Cardiovascular: no murmur, no arrythmia, pink mucous membranes, CRT normal
Respiratory: nares clean, choanes normal, auscultation normal, fast recuperation after manipulations
Digestive: large quantity of clear mucus in oral cavity, choanal papilla normal, no ulcers, wound or foreign body noted in oral cavity, no
mucus coming directly from tracheal opening, crop normal, coelomic palpation normal, cloacal region normal
Uro-genital: normal
Musculoskeletal: normal
Eyes: normal
Ears: normal
Integument: approximately20% of feathers with black spotting, feathers have a clean outline, no signs of plucking or over-preaning

[ ASSESSMENT ]
Overproduction of mucus: crop/oral cavity infection, tritrichomonas, respiratory infection, foreign body not seen on exam
Black feathers: hypovitaminosis A, liver disease
[ PLAN ]
Recommandation: CAP to establish baseline and differentiate digestive vs respiratory disease for the mucus. Owners agree.
Results of gram:
- Crop: small rods in large clumps gram+ 2+, no yeast, no gram-, epithelial cells 2+, gel artefact 1+
- Stools: mixed population of gram+ rods, no gram-, no yeast, epithelial cells 2+
- Interpretation: bacterial ingluvitis
Radiology=>
(VD view) trachea normal; cardiohepatic silhouette normal; thoraco-abdominal air sacs system normal; pulmonary symetry normal;
skeletal system normal; crop normal; ventriculus normal; intestinal loops normal. (Lateral view) trachea normal; syrinx normal;
pulmonary texture normal; pulmonary caudal margin normal; thoraco-abdominal airsac system, but the division between cranial and
caudal is very prominent; heart normal; liver normal; spleen normal; kidneys normal; testicles normal; thoracic esophagus normal;
proventriculus normal; ventriculus normal; intestinal loops normal.
Interpretation: Soft tissue opacity between air sacs most probably individual variation of ligament in that region
Start treatment for ingluvitis while waiting for further results. GB will look up specific diet for Eclectus and see if we can improve on it.
Jasper already ate Tropican pellets and Lafeber for us during the visit. Continue good work with training.
Traitement: Aventiclav @125mg/kg PO q12h x 14 jours, vinaigre de cidre de pomme dans l'eau x 14 jours, réévaluation avant la fin
des traitements. GB.
[ LIBR ] 05/09/15 5:34 PM GB - Eclectus CBC/Bcm (juvenile values)
Hematology=>
PCV: 44 % (37-52)
Total protein: 32 g/L (24-34)
Total white blood cells: 7,431 (7,400-20,000)
Differential:
Hétérophiles: 32 % (42-65), abs 2,378 LOW
Lymphocytes: 60 % (28-51), abs 4,458 HIGH
Monocytes: 4 %, (2.3-7.7), abs 297
Eosinophiles: 4 %, (0-0.4), abs 297 HIGH
Basophiles: 0 %, (0-2), abs 0
Cellular morphology: Normal
Interpretation=> Mild changes, most likely individual variation


Biochemistry=>
Total protein 28 g/L (24-34)
Albumin 11 g/L (10-16)
Globulin 17 g/L (12-18)
Bile acids 7.7 μmol/L (30-110) LOW
AST 198 U/L (80-198)
CK 289 U/L (144-1,088)
Amylase 616 U/L (562-684)
Glucose 15.1 mmol/L (12.7-15.3)
Uric acid 390 μmol/L (24-387) HIGH
Calcium 2.01 mmol/L (2.2-2.4) LOW
Cholesterol 4.5 mmol/L (4.9-9.0) LOW
Triglycerides 1.23 mmol/L (0.77-4.51)
Hemolysis: +
Lipemia: normal
Interpretation: Decrease bile acids non significative (individual variation), very mild increase in uric acid (individual variation, non
significative), mild hypocalcemia (individual variation, lack of calcium in diet), mild hypocholesterolemia (individual variation, young age)

05/14/15 11:39 AM GB- Choanal culture:
Heavy growth of normal choanal flora
Light growth of Enterobacter cloacae
- Resistant: Amoxicillin/clavulanic acid, cefalexin, cefpodoxime
- Intermediate: Spectinomycin
- Sensitive: Amikacin, cefovecin, ceftiofur, chloramphenicol, ciprofloxacin, doxycycline, enrofloxacin, gentamicin, imipenem,
marbofloxacin, piperacillin, tetracycline, tobramcycine, TMS
05/14/15 2:29 PM GB- Cloacal Culture:
Moderate growth of normal gram positive flora / No Salmonella, Shigella or Campylobacter
Plan: diet change especially with low calcium

--------------------

If anyone is used to reading these types of results I would appreciate your opinion.

 

[Anansi]

I'm not going to say that there are no pellets in all the world that can be safely given to eclectus parrots, because the truth of the matter is I just don't know. There are new developments in science all the time. For all I know, they could come up with the perfect ekkie diet tomorrow... a diet in pellet form.

But that said, what I do know is that ekkies are definitely more vulnerable to over-supplementation than other parrots tend to be. I know that this over-supplementation often comes in the form of all or mostly pelleted diets. I know that consistent over-supplementation can lead to toe-tapping, wing-flipping, feather plucking, ill-temper, and eventually a significant shortening of their life expectancy.

And I also know that I, and many other ekkie owners, have managed to raise birds who are practically glowing with health without the use of any supplements whatsoever.

Now, is it possible that a vet might be able to come up with a diet that has a significant pellet presence and yet is still healthy for an eclectus? Probably. But considering how many vets out there know little or nothing about ekkies, and approach their care like a slightly more high-maintenance version of every other parrot, it would have to be an avian vet that I felt I could trust with my birds' lives. Because that's just what I would be doing.

So I choose to provide them a complete diet using veggies, fruits, grains and legumes rather than via supplements and pellets. Because I know that I can safely do so.

If you, however, trust this vet to guide you with your ekkie's nutritional requirements, then I reckon it's a judgement call. I must say, though, the fact that he/she had to research toe-tapping and wing-flipping before advising you on them suggests to me that this vet is not well-versed in ekkies. A thought which would give me pause.

As for his/her assertion that an ekkie does not actually have a longer digestive tract, nor a more efficient means of extracting nutrients, here are a few links with assertions to the contrary.
diets
Meeting the Special Nutritional Requirements of the Eclectus Parrots
Eclectus parrot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Birds n Ways - Eclectus Diet - Eclectus Forum September 1997 Pet Birds, Pet Parrots, Exotic Birds (Like your vet, this source also advocates 50% pellet diet, but not while denying the ekkies' anatomical differences.)
Solomon Island Eclectus Parrots from Avalon Aviary
Eclectus Parrots | Parrot Parrot

As for the medical report, I don't have much experience with reading them. But hopefully someone who does will chime in.

Oh! And as for the low calcium levels, broccoli is good for that. as are egg shells. In fact, the first link that I provided has sections that deal exhaustively with a large variety of foods and their exact nutritional content. Should be helpful with finding foods rich in calcium.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thank you Anansi for your reply! Much appreciated.

I am VERY hesitant about giving Jasper pellets. And 50% of his diet?? No way. He had horrible toe tapping before I stopped Harrison's. And he was only getting a tablespoon a day or less (or was it a teaspoon, it wasn't very much)

Everything I've read indicates Ekkies do not do well on pellets.

He gets broccoli often but I don't think he likes it very much. He gets hard boiled eggs on weekends. Pumpkin seeds daily. I'll have to read that link again for other foods.

Other than clearing up this infection and adding more calcium to his diet I'm not convinced he needs an entire diet change. (Although some of the levels say low/high so not sure about those ones....)

BTW I replied to the email and sent ALL the links you posted here. Hopefully she will take the time to do some more reading.