how to set boundaries?

[Mallory]

Enjoyed that. Setting boundaries for a caique? LOL

Good luck with that. Its a wild animal and doesnt give a fig for your boundaries.

What is it the French horseman said in the Monthy Python sketch?. " Hah, I break wind in your general direction!"

a caique will break wind in the general direction of your orders, instructions, and silly commands.

your only hope is DISTRACTION!

If I can set clear boundaries with the wild-born bobcats I work with daily, it is possible to set boundaries with a tiny captive bred parrot. Your posts are always so extreme, yet let's face it, all animals are trainable with a good understanding of negative punishment and positive reinforcement (I have even used it with snakes, invertebrates, etc. to some degree). It's just knowing how to work with each animal and what is positively and negatively motivating to that animal. Sure, caiques may be a more challenging parrot but certainly not the most and then there are so many "exotic pets" that are again more behaviorally challenging and/or dangerous than parrots. Setting a new user up with the belief that their caique will be a raving lunatic is hardly fair, and while I don't own one myself I have met a good bunch of happy caique owners in person.

To the OP, honestly potty training is more useful to avoid messes. A bird will understand that you took it out because it went potty if you time the process right, yet sometimes they just don't need to go and your bird can't magically form more feces on cue! No, the bird will not wait and hold it in for hours, but since pooping is intrinsically rewarding to most animals potty training can honestly be a more complex behavior to train. Boundaries are easier set with things like time outs (a form of negative punishment - taking away something the bird enjoys in response to bad behavior). Also look into positive reinforcement training (often called "clicker training") as this is a great way to encourage good behavior and to build a bond with your bird.

 

[Anansi]

hi guys. it sounds like the potty training is great. but i already asked if there would be a major problem with her only going when i'm there to tell her to go.

Hey, Friendcaique. I know why you're asking what you're asking. I too have heard the rumor that some birds have been taught so stringently to poop on command, and so enjoy the praise that comes from successfully doing so, that they will hold back from pooping until being told to do so. And that in at least one case, this resulted in the death of a bird when his owner went on vacation and neglected to inform ghe boarding facility about this little tidbit.

Now, I honestly don't know whether or not this is true. You know how convincing and enduring some internet hoaxes can be. But I choose to err on the side of caution.

This doesn't mean that I totally abandoned potty training. Rather, I keep the (possibly fictional) danger in mind and adjust training appropriately. So, instead of focusing on training my birds to go on command, I simply work on their associations. (Associations are powerful learning tools.)

I observe their defecation schedule, as Bigbluemacaw had mentioned. If they go say every 20 minutes or so, I would take my bird off of me at maybe 18 or 19 minutes and put him on his tree stand or perch. (Or any acceptable pooping venue) Once he goes, I say "poop" (or whatever term you prefer. "Drop it like it's hot" works just as well, so long as it's used consistently) and then give a little praise and take him back to me. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Eventually, the association is made between going poop on a perch rather than on you. And all without your bird feeling like your command needs to be the impetus for his fecal activities. This works exceptionally well with a flighted bird. My Jolly will simply fly off of me on his own, do his business on his tree stand, and then fly back to me. With Maya, however, who is flighted but only ever flies out of fear, I need to remember and then place her on a perch or stand, myself. Otherwise, she'll hold to a point and then give the avian equivalent of a shrug before redecorating my pants. Hahaha! But hey, with birds sometimes... poop happens!

 

[MonicaMc]

If I can set clear boundaries with the wild-born bobcats I work with daily, it is possible to set boundaries with a tiny captive bred parrot.

I must wonder.... how do you set up boundaries for wild-born bobcats?


As many people recommend, if the animal doesn't do what you want them to do, you force that animal to comply regardless of how that animal feels.


Are you doing this with the bobcats as well? An animal that could, I imagine, easily tear up your flesh with their claws and teeth?


Or are you using the positive reinforcement training approach? Force free animal training?

 

[JerseyWendy]

Birdman, this is right, no means no!! but what you didn't mention was that this also applies to Wives!! (and good luck with that! God created all birds equal but you can only control the ones with feathers!!!! (and toilet training is where to start - with your Parrot that is)

Pardon? I will 'attempt' to overlook this little snide remark, but ONLY this one time. :21:

 

[bigbluemacaw]

LOL!!!! I have absolutely no control of mine

 

[Irishj9]

For Mallory:

I'm a huge 'Pirates of the Caribbean' fan.

So I will paraphrase Captain Barbosa here:

"Of the two of us, one has 11 caiques for more than four years. The other has none. I know which one I'll be relying on for caique advice"

OOH_AAR, shiver me timbers, stick to the code, etc

 

[Mallory]

If I can set clear boundaries with the wild-born bobcats I work with daily, it is possible to set boundaries with a tiny captive bred parrot.

I must wonder.... how do you set up boundaries for wild-born bobcats?


As many people recommend, if the animal doesn't do what you want them to do, you force that animal to comply regardless of how that animal feels.


Are you doing this with the bobcats as well? An animal that could, I imagine, easily tear up your flesh with their claws and teeth?


Or are you using the positive reinforcement training approach? Force free animal training?

Derailing a little here. I was raised on positive reinforcement training and so that is my go-to. I was also raised working around horses and respect that when working with large potentially dangerous animals you sometimes use aversives if the situation calls for it to protect yourself. These cats really don't give me much reason to do so, if they are being especially nasty on a given day I will assert myself more strongly. When working with wild animals you cannot really force them to do anything without using physical dominance and I never use more than a raised voice or body language to protect my space. That said it's pretty rare I have to do so. Even then, it's not forcing them to do anything so much as making it more comfortable for them to be in their space than in mine when they are in a bad mood. I bring some sort of shield or barrier (sometimes the pole of the rake we clean their cage with) in case I need to use it but would never use it to hurt one of the cats, only in an emergency situation to keep them at a safe distance. That has nothing to do with training and is a safety precaution.
For the most part I use positive reinforcement with the cats using both food rewards and positive physical contact. Again, boundaries are set as to their politeness when accepting food rewards as well as their attitude when in my space. The male I work with is more trusting with humans and we have a very positive relationship, most days he acts like a typical housecat though you always respect his potential. The female is more grumpy and she has learned I will not give her positive attention unless she approaches me in a friendly manner. Both are highly motivated by both food rewards and by human interaction (petting, playing with toys etc.) Both cats are traumatized from previous veterinary procedures before I was on staff, so we are working on targetting, entering carriers, taking medicine etc.
My parrots also are learning to respect boundaries - my amazon knows not to step past my glove or elbow and she is learning that when she becomes overstimulated she loses the privelege of interacting with me for a time. We are seeing a slow change in her behavior with me, more respectful and calm when on my arm, reserving her "crazy time" for her playstand. She is also learning to target and to accept novel "scary" items. My GCC is learning the difference between my items and hers with a lot of consistent work. On the positive end of training, she has gone from people-phobic to playing, accepting pets and stepping onto my hand and is out most of the day with me. Her socialization was pure positive reinforcement and we never used flooding or forced her to interact or tolerate us.


As for Irish's last comment, I don't know you of your caiques specifically so this is not meant to be a personal attack. However, there are people with 11 dogs who do not know a thing about dog training, people with 11 horses who are miserable at horsemanship. I am sure there are people with 11 kids who are pretty bad parents too. It's faulty logic to say that just because you own certain animals in quantity, you are an expert or more qualified to give advice on training or setting boundaries. Anyone can purchase 11 caiques given the money but you would see a wide range in success with the birds based on that individual's experience, research, etc. More to the point, we should not make sweeping (especially negative) generalizations about a species but instead encourage a potential owner AND give them the resources to succeed with that animal.

 

[Irishj9]

Mallory:
You have no caique experience
You have NO HOPE of setting boundaries with a caique
You can train them to lie on a plate and pretend to be dead ( done that)
You can train them to hop on command ( done that)
You can train them to do a variety of things on cue.

What nobody can do with a caique, is set boundaries WHICH A CAIQUE WILL RESPECT

 

[Anansi]

While I'm as much a fan of spirited debate as the next guy, I just want to take this moment to remind everyone that we do want to keep things civil, here. No one has quite crossed the line yet, and I'd like to keep it that way.

There are different approaches, techniques, and philosophies. We don't all have to agree, but we do need to respect one another.

I love that the OP is hearing from so many different perspectives. The variety of views here is a healthy, beautiful thing. All the better when the time comes to make an informed choice about which path to take. Which, of course, was our entire reason for posting in this thread, yes? To share the benefit of our experiences with the OP?

That being the case, I think we're succeeding marvelously. Heated argument would only detract from that success.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

 

[Birdman666]

Birdman, this is right, no means no!! but what you didn't mention was that this also applies to Wives!! (and good luck with that! God created all birds equal but you can only control the ones with feathers!!!! (and toilet training is where to start - with your Parrot that is)

Pardon? I will 'attempt' to overlook this little snide remark, but ONLY this one time. :21:

With my wife "NO" always meant "THIS MEANS WAR!" :11: EXCEPT FOR THE TIMES WHEN IT MEANT "OH YEAH, JUST WATCH ME [EXPLETIVE DELETED]...!"

So, that's the last technique I would ever use. "Ignorance is bliss" i.e. What she doesn't know, won't hurt ME... is probably your best option there. (i.e. Shut up, and hope she never figures it out!)

I'm just saying...

 

[Birdman666]

Mallory:
You have no caique experience
You have NO HOPE of setting boundaries with a caique
You can train them to lie on a plate and pretend to be dead ( done that)
You can train them to hop on command ( done that)
You can train them to do a variety of things on cue.

What nobody can do with a caique, is set boundaries WHICH A CAIQUE WILL RESPECT

Not sure I buy that one at all.

I've worked with plenty of caiques and I find them less attitudinous than Sennie's (for example) by far... for that matter, try telling that hormonal and territorial DYH that, actually, even though you are trying to claim it, IT'S NOT YOUR TERRITORY... (Watch your nose when you attempt to explain THAT ONE to him!)

OR FOR THAT MATTER, TRYING TO TELL ANY 'TOO THE THING HE JUST GRABBED AND RAN OFF WITH IN HIS BEAK IS "NOT YOURS!" (Watch your fingers first, then your ears. In that order... )

Or that territorial and dominant greenwing who is down on the floor going after your toes... [IF A CAIQUE DOES THIS, YOU STILL HAVE TOES. THERE MAY BE LITTLE PINHOLES IN THEM, BUT THEY ARE STILL ALL THERE...]

To me, Caiques are down there on the list for "behaviorally challenged" birds.

 

[Birdman666]

You don't set boundaries...

Instead, you teach the bird what you want them to do and make sure to pair the desired behavior with a reward.

In other words, instead of teaching the bird "What not to do", you teach them "What to do". The more you teach a bird "What to do" and reward them for that behavior, the less likely they are to do the undesired behavior.

Therefore, no need to set any boundaries. The bird will do as you want them to do because they want to do it, too! NOT because they have to!

Well, my take on this is just slightly different. YES, you reward them for doing what you want them to do...

BUT, something like station training, for example...

The bird climbs down, you go and put him back.
The bird climbs down, you go and put him back.
The bird climbs down, you go and put him back.
The bird climbs down, you go and put him back.
Eventually he gets it! He doesn't want me to climb down, and if I try it, he's just gonna get mad at me, and put me right back here.

THAT'S WHEN YOU REWARD HIM WITH PRAISE AND TREATS... WHEN HE STAYS PUT, AND STOPS TRYING TO CLIMB DOWN! YAY! YOU FINALLY GET IT... GOOD BIRD!!!

YOU'RE NOT PUNISHING HIM FOR NOT DOING WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO DO, YOU ARE ACTIVELY PREVENTING IT FROM HAPPENING... NO, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO WADDLE AROUND RIGHT NOW. YOU'RE GOING TO STAY PUT ON YOUR PLAYSTAND.

IF YOU REWARD HIM WHEN YOU PUT HIM BACK, HE GETS A REWARD EVERY TIME HE CLIMBS DOWN, ERGO YOU ARE REINFORCING THE BAD BEHAVIOR. (THAT IS NOT HOW YOU STATION TRAIN A BIRD. DOESN'T WORK.)

That's a boundary set right there, is it not? Stay put on your playstand, and don't wander off...

SAME DEAL WITH "NO BITE" TRAINING. TWO FINGERS ON THE BEAK, PREVENTING THE BIRD FROM LATCHING ON. IT'S NOT "PUNISHMENT." I'M JUST NOT GONNA SIT HERE AND LET YOU DO IT... I'll prevent it from happening, and use the command "knock it off", or "no bite," and if you're REALLY acting up and out of control, I WILL go and get my towel... and you're going to learn that I won't put up with that kind of nonsense. And the bird stops biting... NOT because you gave it a REWARD for NOT BITING. BECAUSE YOU SET THE BOUNDARY. We don't cross this line...

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THOSE ARE ALL BOUNDARIES...

Maggie goes out with me all the time, but when she's out in public on her playstand she's not allowed to leave the playstand UNLESS I step her up...

IF BOUNDARY SETTING WERE NOT POSSIBLE, THEN HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!



An example of Boundary setting the way the birds do it with each other.

Sally has a favorite spot. ANY BIRD who attempts to perch in that spot, will find themselves chased off... (Including my macaws! I'll circle you relentlessly and rip out your tail feathers until you decide to leave... THAT'S MINE!)

In the wild, if a bird misbehave, his flock mates are liable to mass on him, and chase his butt off... without the protection of the flock, he's dead meat.

BOUNDARIES in the wild get respected. If you don't respect them, you could be dead.

All territorial behaviors, it could be argued, are all just one bird setting boundaries with another bird... NAME ME A SINGLE PARROT THAT DOESN'T ENGAGE IN SOME SORT OF TERRITORIAL BEHAVIOR.

THE ANSWER IS THEY ALL DO TO SOME EXTENT, THEIR SURVIVAL DEPENDS ON IT. NO TERRITORIAL BEHAVIORS = NO NEST SPOT FOR YOU PAL!

AND THEY ALSO RESPOND TO IT IN CAPTIVITY...

There is a tremendous amount of boundary setting that goes on, both you with them and them with you...

My CAG doesn't want touching?! He'll intercept your finger with his beak and push it away from his head.

THAT'S A BOUNDARY - THE BIRD HAS SET WITH THE PERSON ATTEMPTING TO TOUCH...

If you persist, he will tell ME "knock it off" and he'll start applying pressure with his beak when he pushes my finger away.

If I'm dumb enough to try it again, I'll probably be bleeding...

OF COURSE THEY DO!!!

 

[Birdman666]

And seriously, if I can train a headstrong, fully flighted greenwing to stay put on her playstand, outside, in public. YOU can train a Caique to do the same...

A CAIQUE IS NOT MORE OF A HANDFUL THAN A GREENWING, I PROMISE YOU!

 

[Birdman666]

It's like the bad advice "ignore the bites" usually only teaches them that it's okay to bite you, and then they bite you more frequently and harder, because they didn't learn it's unacceptable...

BAD ADVICE! You don't SHOW FEAR when they bite you. You don't let them know how much it hurts. BUT YOU DO REACT, IMMEDIATELY... "KNOCK IT OFF!" And the bird immediately knows he just crossed the (BOUNDARY) line...

Birds communicate very well. They need communication, both positive and negative, in order to learn.

You don't PUNISH. Per say... You COMMUNICATE that certain behaviors WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. And that other behaviors are pleasant, and will be always be rewarded...

THEY GET THAT!

And that is a fundamental part of "boundary" setting in my opinion. Communicating to the bird CLEARLY where the line is drawn.

AN AMAZON DOES IT WITH JUST A LOOK, AND A POSE... DON'T START NONE! RIGHT?! YOU'RE ENTERING THE DANGER ZONE, DUDE... BEST BACK OFF... I REALLY DON'T FEEL LIKE BEING TOUCHED RIGHT NOW...

Isn't that a boundary?!

[A census taker tried to scratch my head when I didn't want him to...] well, you know the rest.

Pass the liver and fava beans, please?!

 

[Birdman666]

For Mallory:

I'm a huge 'Pirates of the Caribbean' fan.

So I will paraphrase Captain Barbosa here:

"Of the two of us, one has 11 caiques for more than four years. The other has none. I know which one I'll be relying on for caique advice"

PUH-LEEZE... The legal objection would be "assumes facts not in evidence."

"I have plenty of experience with Caiques that just ignore every boundary I try and set for them" does not make you particularly more qualified to speak to the issue of boundary setting... In fact, there are those who might argue it makes you considerably LESS qualified to speak to the issue of how do I set boundaries with a Caique...

You may have 11 caiques for more than 4 years. BUT if you don't have 11 WELL TRAINED AND NOT BEHAVIORALLY CHALLENGED CAIQUES... does that necessarily still give you the most reliable caique advice?!

METHINKS NOT, ARRGGGHH...

Anytime you make those sorts of arguments, you set yourself up for these sorts of comebacks.

(THIS WAS INTENDED IN LIGHT HEARTED JEST, NOT TO BE MEAN SPIRITED OR TAKEN PERSONALLY... CUZ YOU CAN'T GIVE A NATURAL BORN SMART A## LIKE ME, THESE SORTS OF OPENINGS... )

It's a natural reaction. Mouth opens. Foot goes in. People hate me. Happens every time. I'm quite used to it... My mother?! Why, she's alive and well, living in Washington State, thank you for asking...

 

[Puck]

Yeah, there is a difference between "setting boundaries" and "being an abusive tyrant." Back when I taught junior high school my students often had a problem distinguishing the difference as well, but hey, life with no boundaries at all is just madness! I like rules and stuff. That's probably why I was always the teachers' pet....

 

[Birdman666]

If I can set clear boundaries with the wild-born bobcats I work with daily, it is possible to set boundaries with a tiny captive bred parrot.

I must wonder.... how do you set up boundaries for wild-born bobcats?

I'm guessing there's meat involved.

And a stick... or some other meat delivery system that does not involve fingers with meat juice on them...

 

[Birdman666]

Enjoyed that. Setting boundaries for a caique? LOL

Good luck with that. Its a wild animal and doesnt give a fig for your boundaries.

your only hope is DISTRACTION!

I've always considered them one of the easier birds to train, albeit a bit hyper...

I respectfully disagree. I've seen and worked with many a well trained, reasonably well behaved caique...

In fact, one of the best trick birds in the world is Tani Robar's caique, Cassie, does 100+ behaviors on cue, and lets just about anyone pick her up... after the show.

How do you do that with a bird that doesn't give a fig about boundaries?!

BOUNDARY SETTING IS THE KEY TO A WELL BEHAVED PARROT!

 

[Irishj9]

say no to a caique and see what happens! LOL

 

[chris-md]

Mark, your CAG pushes fingers away? Very cool, I thought that was a uniquely ekkie trait.