He’s in hospital now, seizure?

[skeetkeet]

Hi there
This forum has been so helpful and I had a really helpful response on my last thread about my budgie. Thank you so much.
In summerise;

Got him two weeks ago,
Hes supposed to be 3 month but he had the black spots around his neck, I’ve heard this is 6 months?
He was mounting (pin feathers on head)
He settled down within a day, grinding his beak, happily closing his eyes back at us, eating and drinking, everything seemed good
His avian vet appointment was coming up a week and a bit from then.
He was still pretty quiet and observant though, plus sleeping a lot.
He ate from our hands after a few days and at day six he finally started hopping on the cage bars asking to get out, and that’s when we noticed he had been ringed with his toe (back inside one) inside the ring.
I was terrified it would cause serious problems, but the avian vet had no sooner appointments, so I took him to a vet across the road to remove the ring and inspect the toe before booking an emergency appointment.
He was chirpy on the way home, and very placid with us, he was grinding his beak for a bit and presented his cheek for me to scratch, enjoying gentle head rubs for a good few minutes.
I went to work for five hours, my partner was home the whole time, but when I came back he seemed lethargic and uncomfortable, not grinding his beak.
At the avian vet check he was a little underweight (40g), suspected pulled ligament damage to the toe that may or may not repair but not broken or anything to do that wouldn’t be counter productive. They also could hear a crackling noise in his lungs, so the vet advise we keep an eye on it and come back next week.
He was very placid at the vets
Came home and he still seemed lethargic and quiet, I wondered if it was stress. We have a humidifier and an air purifier (hepa with no ionizer) and open the window whenever his cage is secure. He loves to eat his greens, especially spinach. The only thing missing from the husbandry side is a full spectrum UV light which he still seems alarmed by if it’s shining in his cage (with an area dark) as he doesn’t move around much.
He started to have more perky moments the past few days where his foot didn’t seem to bother him, apart from sleeping/standing always on both feet (unless he’s step up, grooming etc) he used them just fine.
Flying was fine
He was eating his pellets fine
But today he kept avoiding me, flying away and not wanting to be close. Then at night as the lights dimmed low I offered my finger and he came off from his perch above the book case. He seemed to be standing up more than usual and looked more stressed, but calmed down and started grinding his beak as I sat down with him. He suddenly seemed exhausted.
His eyes were closed but he was standing upright and his head was shaking/wobbling slightly, not like grinding.
His temperature was very hot then very cold, suddenly hot then cold again and stayed cold, that’s when I started monitoring his breathing. 69 breaths per minute, then 63, then 61..
I turned him to face me and he had all his weight on one side, his wings folded but one facing upwards one down, he seemed to have lost his normal balance and looked really confused, but like he was “stargazing” upwards with his head, he looked frantically around the ceiling in this strange way, and everything about his body language said scary collapse coming your way, he then stared straight at me, and dived towards my shoulder, belly dragging himself up into my hair.
While this was happening I was sitting beside his cage and the humidifier/night light was about a meter away, at first I thought he was looking at it then I realised his wings and posture was just so strange. He sort of stared at me while I was taking in the strange posture of his wings, and just looked really confused, his feathers were flat against his body and his eyes wide, he had weird movements that were juddery, and he was grasping my hands at one point with his legs splayed open, he just looked not right and from his demeanor I felt like he collapsed on my shoulder. I

My African grey collapsed and died, so I thought the worst.
So I put him straight into the hospital box and took him straight to hospital.
He stabilized very quickly, standing upright looking fairy pissed off.
I handed him over and now he’s in the oxygen tank being monitored and tests being done in the morning. They say he’s stable and seemed fine and they haven’t seen anything yet.

They’re an exotic vet clinic at a world renowned university, the avian vets there are the only properly recommended ones in my country.

I’m going to post what the vet says/prognosis etc, but maybe someone has some idea?
Did I overreact?

 

[Owlet]

can't say what happened and what not but you definitely did not overreact. If my parrot showed those symptoms I would honestly be having a meltdown

 

[alina9898]

I agree, you definitely did not overreact. I hope the poor little fella is okay... that sounds horrible. You're doing all the right things for him though!

 

[Scott]

Hard to know what is wrong, but you've done a great job cataloging symptoms and a timeline that should be immensely helpful for the vet. Sounds possibly neurological or illness that causes similar symptoms.

You certainly reacted well by seeking the best vet care in your area. Hopefully the issue is minor and easily treated. Please keep us advised!

 

[EllenD]

I agree, no overacting by you at all, you did EXACTLY everything you should have done, he may have died otherwise.

As far as what's going on, hopefully they'll be able to run enough tests on him (he's young, so sometimes blood work isn't an option unfortunately) to find out. It could be an infection from the toe, as I remember you mentioned that it looked dark in color or even black, and I think I responded about them having to possibly amputate the toe to prevent infection, so that could very well be what is going on. If so, they'll surely find that quickly upon examination and should suggest removing the toe ASAP.

Since you just got him from a breeder not long ago, you also have to assume that he may have come home to you with an active infection of some kind, either bacterial or fungal, as often is the case. Birds instinctively hide their illnesses and pain/injuries as a survival technique, and they do it very well, and often don't show just how sick or injured they are until they are very, very bad-off. So it wouldn't be surprising if he had come to your home with an illness that you were unaware of (the crackling the vet heard in his lungs is concerning, and would be most likely evidence that he did in-fact come home to you from the breeder with an active Upper Respiratory Infection or some type of lung infection). If this is the case and they tell you this, you may want to call the breeder simply to make them aware that the baby came to you with an active infection, just so they are aware and watching their birds closely.

Either way, this is not your fault at all, you did everything the way you should of and when you should have. Hopefully it's just a simple bacterial or fungal infection that can be treated with medication and he'll be fine. And if it's related to his toe injury and it requires amputation, don't worry, he'll be just fine and live a long, happy, normal life missing a toe. My Senegal Parrot lost a toe and you'd never know unless you happened to spot his "stub", lol. It doesn't impair him one little bit. Better a parrot missing a toe than a dead parrot.

 

[skeetkeet]

Hi everyone,
Thank you for your responses I’m sorry for not replying individually just a little time pressured.

The vet called, said he’s stable but his breathing is still quite heavy and his tail is starting to bob.
He’s in an oxygen cage with a nebulizer and was given crop fed and fluids. But his breathing is still heavy. The price was a hundred on top of the estimate I got last night, and it’s estimated £700 total for tests tomorrow if he’s not perking up.
They’re keeping him for another day and monitoring him, going to take him off oxygen tomorrow morning and see how he does, if he hasn’t gotten better here’s the question I’m going to ask you guys to help me make my decision...


If tomorrow he is still unwell, but stable,
There’s two options, I can choose to take him home and hope he gets better, but they don’t know if it’s fungal, bacterial, virus etc.. he’s going to be stressed at home, it’s a 10 minute car journey away but he’s going to be untrusting of me as I had to wrap my hands around him and put him in the hospital box for his own safety, and may find me terrifying forever if I have to keep checking him, cleaning the cage and administer medications while he’s too poorly to move away from things/feel safe in himself. I don’t mind though if I could regime him with someone that he could have a clean slate with, but that will be very difficult, it would take awhile before I could introduce another bird but he might be stressed by bullseyes reactions to me and then I’ve got two uncomfortable birds.

Second option,
Get the tests, CT scan etc. The tests will be stressful, and they have already given him anti inflammatory, antibiotic and anti fungal treatments today, so I’m hoping he will improve and not need these tests. I’m not sure exactly what they’re looking for and the prognosis of what they’re looking for, but he’s a semi-tame unbonded to anything young bird, I don’t want to drag on something that could be cruel if the death chances are high, taking him home and keeping him comfortable might be an option. If I did the tests, I would almost empty my bank account savings and wouldn’t be able to afford long term care, the insurers wouldn’t take him on until he passed his first exam (which he didn’t).

Third option, if he doesn’t improve would be to put him to sleep. If he gets drastically worse and there’s nothing they can do of course it would be the right decision. I’m being encouraged to do this by everyone but the vets, who say it’s something to consider if he gets worse.

 

[skeetkeet]

Also about his foot, they checked it and said it’s fine. Just a ligament pull, no infection or broken bones or or swelling or bleeding or fracture, just a bit of discomfort, but he WAS leaning all his weight last night on his good foot when he did that leaning thing, perhaps he is breathing heavy from pain and it wasn’t a seizure but rather he twanged it a funny way that day and it gave him a stress/pain episode.. they won’t X-ray him til tomorrow as I did ask if we could do that today because he’s too stressed which is fine but I wish I knew for sure what the hell was happening.

 

[MonicaMc]

Is there anything in your home that could have been releasing toxins into the air? Including the humidifier?

 

[Scott]

Thank you for the update. Please know it is not necessary to reply individually!

You seem to have options covering all bases. Giving him meds for infection and antifungals "in the blind" is a reasonable course pending further tests. Problem with infection is different therapies are needed depending on the organism, but broad-spectrum drugs are a good guess. Hopefully he will show signs of improvement.

I would agree with giving him every opportunity to respond before considering euthanasia if he seems comfortable. Not always easy to determine, but eating, grooming, and activity are good signs.

 

[skeetkeet]

Is there anything in your home that could have been releasing toxins into the air? Including the humidifier?

Nothing I can think of, the air purifier doesn’t have the ionizer switched on, and the humidifier is just steam, all fresh filters. He hasn’t chewed anything while out of the cage, but you’re right toxicity definitely could be a cause.

 

[MonicaMc]

You mentioned your african grey collapsed and died... and the budgie is also sick.... which indicates something that probably harmed both of them...

 

[skeetkeet]

Thank you for the update. Please know it is not necessary to reply individually!

You seem to have options covering all bases. Giving him meds for infection and antifungals "in the blind" is a reasonable course pending further tests. Problem with infection is different therapies are needed depending on the organism, but broad-spectrum drugs are a good guess. Hopefully he will show signs of improvement.

I would agree with giving him every opportunity to respond before considering euthanasia if he seems comfortable. Not always easy to determine, but eating, grooming, and activity are good signs.

It’s been 20 hours now and his condition hasn’t detoriated so I’m really hoping we will get told signs of improvement tomorrow and take him home, I can’t contact the vet I have to wait until they call me, if everything’s fine they won’t call til tomorrow. People keep telling me not to pay £700+ for more treatments and tests, as he’s just a cheap bird and they die easy. The breeder advised this too. I get that this is realistic thinking, but he is definitely sentinent and it feels wrong to deny him help even if it puts me back a few years of saving. The breeder/shop was highly recommended, and I decided on a budgie last year because they’re supposedly harder and have a much shorter life span than other parrots, I was going to insure him. I feel like I shouldn’t have birds now. I was so hyper-critical and careful about everything because of the pain of loosing my grey, and treated the budgie with the care and dedication I would a large parrot. Apart from the UV light not being introduced completely yet I really don’t think it’s husbandry related, but it’s hard to tell if I brought him home with it as he’s been so up and down since I got him, when adjusting was an issue or When illness was it’s hard to tell, ahh!

 

[skeetkeet]

You mentioned your african grey collapsed and died... and the budgie is also sick.... which indicates something that probably harmed both of them...

Okay please don’t be replying to my threads if you are going to draw massively insensitive conclusions like that.
My grey died five years ago, in a different house, in a different city.
To imply I would get another bird without making absolutely sure there is no way the death of my grey could have any relation to the health of my budgie is really presumptuous about my regard for an animals well being and I feel you’re presenting a rather disregardful attitude towards other people’s ability to take parrot care seriously.
Our parrots become very close to our hearts, please be sensitive with people’s emotions about a trauma like a death here.

 

[EllenD]

This very much sounds to me like he has an Upper Respiratory Infection, as I stated he's probably had it since before you brought him home from the breeder.

It's very likely that he will make a full recovery if he's given the correct medication to treat the specific infection that he has. DIAGNOSING THE MICROBE THAT IS CAUSING AN UPPER RESPIRATORY INFECTION DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY EXPENSIVE, ADVANCED TESTING LIKE CT SCANS AND SUCH!!!!

Have they even mentioned to you about taking simple cultures from his nostrils/nares, his throat, and his crop (they should do a crop flush and test the fluid that comes back out), as well as a simple fecal culture? These are very simple and inexpensive tests that will not only diagnose the specific microbe causing the infection(s) (whether bacterial or fungal, highly unlikely that this is viral), but will also tell you what specific medication(s) the specific microbe he has will be sensitive to...This is pretty standard-hat, so I'm questioning the vet if they haven't mentioned or yet even done this step, as it's extremely common for young, baby birds who have just weaned, especially if they were hand-fed by a human breeder, to develop both fungal (yeast) infections and bacterial infections. I'm actually kind of shocked that they haven't put him on a broad-spectrum antibiotic, like Baytril, as this is usually the first thing that vets do, even if it's not the correct medication. I don't agree with doing this at all without first doing cultures, but it's usually done in probably 95% of cases like this...

If this vet has not discussed taking proper cultures from him and sending them out for testing, which will usually only take a couple of days, if not a day only to get results for, I would call them immediately and suggest this be your first step. There is no reason that your bird can't fully recover very quickly from this, but he has to be put on the correct medication(s) ASAP, as he's most-likely already been sick for quite a while.

I would not at all worry about CT Scans, blood work, etc. until AFTER the vet takes:

#1) A fecal culture to test for a fungal (yeast) infection and/or a bacterial infection in throughout his gastrointestinal tract, and
#2) Cultures from his crop/crop flushing, and from his nares/sinuses to test for a bacterial and/or fungal infection in his respiratory tract and/or lungs. A plain-film x-ray will also confirm or rule-out a lung infection/pneumonia, and will be much, much, much less expensive than a CT Scan, an ultrasound, etc.

Always start with the simplest tests based on what the most common possibilities are and then go from there. And since it's extremely common for baby birds just after weaning to come home with bacterial and/or fungal infections, and based on his symptoms, which are classic for an Upper Respiratory Infection and/or a GI Infection, this is the route that I would suggest going, as I'm pretty confident that they'll quickly find out that he has an infection or infections that are easily treatable with either an antibiotic, an antifungal, or both. I also suggest putting him on a probiotic supplement immediately, as this will aide in several different ways...Probiotics daily will help to fight any current fungal infection that he has, and it will help to replenish the normal, healthy bacteria that is normally living throughout their GI Tracts if he needs to be put on an Antibiotic, which will kill-off his normal, healthy flora, which often results in a secondary fungal infection. The Probiotics will do him no harm at all, but can help him immensely.

 

[MonicaMc]

skeetkeet - I did not mean to offend. You are new here, and I did not see any background about you having an african grey 5 years ago. In your own words, you went from talking about your budgie to saying that your african grey collapsed and died. No information that this was 5 years ago, in another house, in another city.

While this was happening I was sitting beside his cage and the humidifier/night light was about a meter away, at first I thought he was looking at it then I realised his wings and posture was just so strange. He sort of stared at me while I was taking in the strange posture of his wings, and just looked really confused, his feathers were flat against his body and his eyes wide, he had weird movements that were juddery, and he was grasping my hands at one point with his legs splayed open, he just looked not right and from his demeanor I felt like he collapsed on my shoulder. I

My African grey collapsed and died, so I thought the worst.

Having more background history, then yes, it's safe to say that these two events are unrelated.


I see it mentioned in one post in a different thread about your african grey, which I did not see previously. My condolences for your loss. I hope you are able to get your little budgie healthy again and on the road to recovery!

 

[skeetkeet]

Thank you for your response Ellen, it was much more explanatory than the vet gave me, they haven’t run fecal, nare and crop tests and said that would come tomorrow with the ct scans and everything. They said he’s stable in the oxygen cage just breathing heavily, they’re collecting the fecal samples and they’re not looking right and they’re giving him a nebuliser of various umbrella treatments. They told me they were really busy but would monitor him today and phone me tomorrow morning about testing, so I feel a little uncomfortable phoning and asking for them to run the tests before the morning.
Thank you for your help, this is the kind of response I needed, I don’t want him to be put through more stress than necessary.

 

[skeetkeet]

skeetkeet - I did not mean to offend. You are new here, and I did not see any background about you having an african grey 5 years ago. In your own words, you went from talking about your budgie to saying that your african grey collapsed and died. No information that this was 5 years ago, in another house, in another city.

While this was happening I was sitting beside his cage and the humidifier/night light was about a meter away, at first I thought he was looking at it then I realised his wings and posture was just so strange. He sort of stared at me while I was taking in the strange posture of his wings, and just looked really confused, his feathers were flat against his body and his eyes wide, he had weird movements that were juddery, and he was grasping my hands at one point with his legs splayed open, he just looked not right and from his demeanor I felt like he collapsed on my shoulder. I

My African grey collapsed and died, so I thought the worst.

Having more background history, then yes, it's safe to say that these two events are unrelated.


I see it mentioned in one post in a different thread about your african grey, which I did not see previously. My condolences for your loss. I hope you are able to get your little budgie healthy again and on the road to recovery!

Thank you, and I’m sorry my context could use some work. I still haven’t recovered from it, so when the budgie fell over it brought me back to that time, my grey and I were really close.

 

[Scott]

Ellen's advice is excellent and may be grounds for accelerated testing to determine what if any infectious organisms are present. A timely course of antibiotics might yield observable benefits and help confirm the problem(s).

 

[EllenD]

Something else that is just my opinion Skeet...If you can't call the vet that literally has your bird ANY TIME YOU WANT TO, then you need a new vet...

Seriously, your bird probably could have been tested, treated, home, and better by now, in one visit.

I've never heard of a CT Scan for his symptoms, or even mentioning a CT Scan with his symptoms BEFORE cultures were even taken and an infection was rule out...

***So you aren't allowed to call this vet, they'll call you, because they're very busy, and before even taking ANY fecal or URI cultures they are talking to you about scheduling a CT Scan...RED FLAGS!!! This vet sounds horribly awful to me, and I'm pretty sure that they are only after your money!!! Is this a Certified Avian Vet?

Is there ANY other Avian Vet within a couple of hours of you that you could take him to? This is really troubling to me...based on his symptoms there is no reason at all that any Avian Vet would not run basic Fecal and URI cultures to confirm/rule out an infection as the first thing they do...they O2 treatment is fine as symptomatic treatment, but not curable treatment. Then to mention a CT Scan...

Did they tell you what they are giving him in the Nebulizer? Did they give you any possible diagnosis that they think this is, or that they are looking for with a CT Scan, instead of taking very basic Fecal and URI cultures, and maybe a plain-film x-ray to rule out infections?

 

[EllenD]

Hey Skeet, I just wanted to mention something also, I'm not at all against spending every dime you have to save your bird, whether a Budgie or a Cockatoo, doesn't matter. I'd sell everything I own to save one of my guys, or my dogs. So that's not my problem...

If I had a parrot with the symptoms that your Budgie was displaying, weakness, lethargy, fatigue, syncope, and crackling in his chest upon listening, I would immediately take him to my Certified Avian Vet, or if he was closed then the 24 hour Animal Hospital right near me. At the 24-hour Animal Hospital, they would immediately put him in the O2 chamber/cage, then most likely, because he's such a young Budgie, they would suggest that they try to stabilize him, then release him to my Certified Avian Vet AS SOON AS HE OPENS, OR THEY COULD GET HIM ON THE PHONE. They may even take the initial Fecal Cultures and the Nare/Nostril, Crop, and possibly Throat Cultures and send them out for testing IMMEDIATELY FOR ME, because they typically take a day or two, that way my CAV would have the results very quickly. Upon reaching my CAV, he would either order the very same cultures and possibly do blood work if I requested it and if he thought it necessary, or he would simply put him in his O2 chamber/cage and possibly do a nebulizer treatment of Albuterol ONLY if he was having trouble breathing, but not of any specific medication until the cultures came back. THE WORD "CAT SCAN" would not be mentioned at all at this point, possibly a plain-film X-Ray to look for fluid in his lungs/pneumonia, but that's it. And that might not even be possible if his breathing is bad enough to require a constant nebulizer, as with a plain-film X-Ray, a CT Scan, etc., they have to sedate the bird with short-term gas, and they won't do it if his breathing is not stable and they believe he'll survive it...

This is why what your vet is doing and how they are not only handling your bird's case, but how they have treated you as well is so disturbing, and is a red-flag for a greedy Vet Hospital. I couldn't tell if this was an Animal Hospital with an "Exotics" Vet on staff, or an actual Certified Avian Vet, but if it's only an "Exotics" Vet at an Animal Hospital then that explains a lot too.

No CAV or any other Vet for that matter should be immediately giving you $1,300 estimates that include expensive tests like a CT Scan based on your bird's symptoms. not BEFORE taking the simple, basic cultures I listed to confirm/rule-out a bacterial or fungal infection. It's ridiculous. AND HAD THEY SIMPLY TAKEN 10 MINUTES THE MINUTE YOUR BIRD HAD STABILIZED, 2 DAYS AGO, AND TAKEN THE FECAL AND URI CULTURES, THEY WOULD HAVE THE RESULTS BACK BY NOW AND YOUR BIRD WOULD MOST LIKELY BE GETTING A PRESCRIPTION AND GOING HOME!!!

Your bird stabilized with O2 and a Nebulizer Treatment only, probably of Albuterol or some similar steroid, which is yet another indication that he most likely has an Upper Respiratory Infection, a Lung Infection, Pneumonia, or something similar. They know this, any Vet would know this, and if they don't then they need some more training/education/experience. Something just isn't right here.

***What really bothers me more than anything else, even more than immediately ordering excessive and unnecessary testing before even ruling-out an infection, is the fact that you don't feel comfortable calling the doctors who actually have custody of your bird right now, and for the last 2 days. "They will call me, I can't call them...they're very busy right now"...That's awful that you feel that way...I can call, email, text, or go to my CAV's personal home on the spot if I need to, and he'll gladly see any of my birds at any time, or wake up in the middle of the night to answer a question or see one of them...That might be excessive, I know, but you should be able to call your vet as many times as you want to during office hours, especially if they are keeping your bird overnight for many days and are suggesting that you pay them $1,300+ for testing before they have even run cultures to rule-out infection...It's wrong, it's uncomfortable, and something isn't right here at all...Just my opinion as a long-time parrot owner/breeder and someone with a medical education and animal health background...

Your bird is now stabilized, he has been for over 24 hours, and he's not worsening, so if this were my bird, I would be finding the closest Certified Avian Specialist to you, whether they are a few hours away or not, calling them, explaining your bird's symptoms and exactly what has been going on to them, explaining what this place that has him is proposing be done, and asking them if they think it could be something as small/simple as an Upper Respiratory Infection/Lung Infection/Pneumonia, and if simply taking cultures for testing and medication purposes would be the first step that they would recommend, or if they too would propose a CT Scan and other invasive testing right away, before cultures. See what a CAV has to say, voice your concerns, and if they agree with me, then I'd go get your bird, pay your remaining bill, and take him immediately to this CAV.