Food Intake Differences Based on Moisture Content?

[Teddscau]

I just thought of something today when it comes to parrot diet. How does the moisture content in various foods affect the quantity of food ingested and the required nutritional content of a parrot's diet? I read that budgies consume, on average, 7 grams of food per individual per day. Does that mean they consume around 7 grams of food, regardless of whether or not the food is dense/low in moisture (pellets, nuts, seeds, etc.) or has a lot of moisture (baby food, fruit, leafy greens)? I know that water consumption and urine production correlates to the moisture content of their food, but does it affect the amount of food they need to eat?

This raises a lot of questions, especially when it comes to nutrition. Nutritional requirements for birds are stated in terms of X grams or X IU per kilogram of dry feed. So, what does this mean for our birds? If the vitamin A requirement is 4,000 IU/kg of dry feed (pellets, seed, etc), does that also mean 4,000 IU of vitamin A is required for 1 kg of "wet" food (fruits, veggies, sprouts, etc.)? Do we subtract the moisture content in a non-dry food diet to end up with the dry weight, thus allowing us to calculate that, for example: 1 kg of wet food is 500 grams in dry weight, thus we only need 2,000 IU of vitamin A for 1 kg of wet food?

 

[chris-md]

It may or may not correlate. But that might be the wrong question.

I've heard theories with regards to ekkies that the majority of their moisture should come from food as opposed to simply drinking. This makes some sense when you consider a lot of birds like to dunk their dry food into their water bowl. We like to say our ekkie is making bird soup. Parker rarely outright drinks.

 

[Teddscau]

It makes sense that the majority of an ekkie's moisture should come from their food. Living in rainforests, they eat a ton of "bulky", wet, high fibre, nutrient-sparse fruits (as you already know). So, I'm guessing you'd want no less than half of the weight of their food to come from moisture. Something like:

Total Weight of Food - Moisture = Dry Weight.

I'm guessing the dry weight shouldn't be more than 1/3 of their total food consumption. And dry weight, I'm not just referring to seeds and nuts, but the non-moisture related weight of foods like leafy greens, fruits, squash, etc. So, instead of trying to achieve 1.25 mg of vitamin B6 in 100 g of moist food, you'd want like a third of that. So, if you consider dry weight, you'd want:

1/3 of diet (aka dry weight) x 0.0125 mg = Desired Amount of Vitamin B6 per Day.

I don't really have any idea about what I'm talking about, so just take this with a grain of salt. It makes sense, though, I'd think. Eclectus still need the same amount of each nutrient (with the exception of vitamin A) for the dry weight of their diet, but if you consider the full weight of their diet (moisture, fibre, etc.), you'd only want a "third" of the amount of nutrients than if <80% of their diet was dry weight, like with budgies. I mean, eclectus evolved to eat huge amounts of food because there's so much moisture and not a whole lot of nutrition per gram of food.

Dry-climate parrots, such as budgies, cockatiels, lovebirds, parrotlets, etc., need far less moisture in their diet, sustaining themselves on only morning dew and small amounts of moisture in their predominately seed-based diet during times of drought. They all drink whenever possible since they live in such dry climates, but still. You'd probably want a budgie's daily intake of food (7 g) to be mostly "dry weight" with little moisture, since that's what they've evolved to eat. Although, I think if more than 1/4–1/3 of the weight of the food comes from moisture, you could probably add a few more grams of food since the moisture will go right through them (they need very little water in their diet), and they'll be hungry still. So, fulfill the recommended amount of nutrients for 7 grams of food, but keep in mind that you probably only have to aim for 75% of each nutrient in those 7 grams if more than 1/4–1/3 of the weight is moisture, since they'll want to eat a bit more. But still, you probably want to aim for less than 1/4–1/3 of the weight of their food coming from moisture.

Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about, but it's kind of the way I interpret "wet" vs "dry" weight, and the nutritional requirements associated with said diets. Again, you'd probably have to consider what sort of habitat and diet your specific species is from, and decide how much moisture, and what quantity of nutrients is required for your species total diet. So, you'd want the dry weight of a budgie's diet to be VERY close to the total weight, so you'd probably want Total Weight (moisture content and dry weight) x Recommended Dosage of Nutrient Z per gram of Dry Feed (the recommended amount of each nutrient per gram of food is assumed by the researches to be for parrots and poultry fed a pelleted or low moisture diet) = >75% of recommended dosage for 7 grams of feed. So, 7 grams x (0.0125) = 0.0656mg–0.0875mg of vitamin B6.

Does what I'm saying seem accurate?

 

[chris-md]

Hard to tell because I doubt it's been studied in such depth. What I would say thought is that looking at it in terms of dry weight is useless, given water is the solvent - thus the conduit - for a large number of nutrients. We are talking nutrition after all. You can't extricate the two for the purposes of where you're trying to drive he discussion.

 

[SailBoat]

Lots of big holes in this discussion. One of the largest was the belief 'dry foods' are in fact dry. If truly dry, they would be dust. Moisture allows the binders to maintain the structure. And it goes down hill from there.

The reality of the daily Vitamin in their Natural settings: This part of the discussion would have one believing that our Parrots in their Natural Settings start each day with a shopping list of their needed daily intake and set their day up around that list. Not true, they are opportunists and their diet swing widely day to day, week to week, month to month.

FYI: There are no Parrots that live year around in Rain Forests! NONE! Yes they may migrate in and out during late Spring though early Fall. But once the cold temperatures (below 32 degrees F) of Winter come - there are no Parrots.

 

[Teddscau]

By dry, I didn't mean 0% moisture content, I just meant low. I also understand that even with reduced moisture in their food, parrots compensate for it by drinking more so that they can digest their food.

What you two said got me curious, so I checked the moisture content of various foods, and it turns out it's just about the same for all foods, whether they be mangos, tubers, or unripe grains. Well, grains, seeds, and nuts have about half as much water content. Strange, although I guess it makes sense since different species of animals are made up of a similar percentage of water.

I also understand that parrots are opportunists whose diets change from day to day and season to season. They eat dozens, if not hundreds, of different foods, various parts of the plants, all at various stages of ripeness. Not to mention that certain foods might only be available for a few weeks each year. From what I read, most wild parrots are constantly suffering from one or more nutritient deficiencies, depending on what they've been eating the past few days.

As for rainforests, don't most of them stay pretty hot all year long? The only difference when it comes to seasons, as far as I know, is the amount of rain and which foods are available. Beyond that, rainforests in places like Brazil and Borneo are pretty hot and humid all year long. I was just contrasting the habitat of parrots like scarlet macaws and eclectus to that of budgies, cockatiels, etc. Those guys live in humid rainforests with a lot of water sources at their disposal, while budgies live in a places where droughts can last for months, and bushfires rage (not that they live right in those forests, but you know what I mean). In times of severe drought, it's not uncommon for thousands of budgies, cockatiels, etc., to die of dehydration. I'm pretty sure that's not the case for parrots who live in places where mangos, papayas, almonds, and avocados are a part of their diet.

Oh, and to answer my question about food consumption, apparently it's related to the amount of fat in what they're eating, since birds eat as much as they need to in order to meet their energy demands. So, the lower the fat content, the more vitamins and minerals they'll be getting. And then you have cockatoos who need to be supplemented with palm oil because they've evolved to eat tons of fatty nuts, and I guess no matter how many fruits and veggies they eat in a day, nothing can beat those palm nuts when it comes to fat.

 

[SailBoat]

Rain Forest:

A Rain Forests occurs in very specific places in the World.
They are along the shoreline of an Ocean where its Currents bring to the surface colder waters.
These areas, resulting from the rotation of the Earth are commonly found on the Western edge of Continents.
They are also defined by tall Mountain Ranges, which also sits at and along those shorelines.
Once again, supported by the rotation of the Earth, these areas are know for the Storm systems that bring additional Rains. These large Ocean traveling Storm systems and local rain events are pushed against the raising mountains combining to extract large volumes of rain /snow as the systems are pushed higher in elevation.
The most common type of trees found in these areas are of the group know as Pines and some (in specific areas) of their members can grow to towering highs.

With that description. Where would you believe Rain Forests to exist?


So why do Educational Institutions miss label different Forests as Rain Forests. Simple:

1. Rain Forests are believed to be wonderful, magical places that Humans have grown to love. The places where huge trees grow and wild life lives in harmony with the Forests.

2. Jungles on the other hand are thick, muddy, hot, humid, rainy places that are filled with snakes and other non-wonderful stuff.

After all, it is easy to convince 'people' of the need to protect and save Rain Forest and much harder to convince them to save a Jungle, the 'PC' groups simply started calling everything a Rain Forest.

The sad part of all of this is that people have been found releasing their Parrots into the 'real' Rain Forests, believing that their pet will be happier in those wonderful magical places!

Back when education was all about teaching students how to question, research, and find answers for themselves, and not place's that spoon fed the 'new' agreed answers, education was devoid of 'PC.'

Want a feeling for what education was like, visit a single room school of the 1900 - 1930 and have a look at what was expected of a 5th grader. There is a reason why the USA is trailing all other First World Nations and its not for the lack of Money.

 

[Teddscau]

Okay, that makes more sense, then. With temperate rainforests and whatnot. It definitely gets cold in the rainforests you're talking about. Darn educators who call everything a rainforest! Freaking embarrassing getting rainforests and jungles mixed up.

But, yeah, I was referring to those tropical rainforests, by which I meant jungles in Costa Rica and Brazil. With all those poisonous plants and insects, weird diseases, dangerous predators, and oppressive heat. There really aren't any pleasant places for animals to live in if you think about it. Maybe the Galápagos Islands. And maybe New Zealand before it got all those invasive species. Hence all those flightless birds.

 

[SailBoat]

I really like the discussion you have brought here.

The problems faced with this seemingly rigid requirements of our Parrots (and, birds in general) is the same problem we are faced with Human Diet. The work is far from complete and, Humans and Birds alike, keep screwing-up the studies. With Humans, ever five to eight years there are changes that are from minor to major.

Regarding Jungles. The transition are: Heavy Jungle, Moderate Jungle, Tropical Forests, Moderate Forests, Light Forests, Plains. All of which support Parrots. This also supporting a very wide offering of Foods. And, those available foods differ enough that the 'diet' becomes different based on the soil content, amount of rain /Sun, and the plants and trees it supports.

When we look at the Americas' and the very wide distribution of like Parrot, which have spread from Heavy Jungle to Islands. We are faced with moderate differences in their diets. As stated above, it all goes to the on-going problem of Humans and Birds screwing-up the Studies.

 

[Scott]

I have no knowledge of these subjects, but the conversation is fantastic! Will be lurking and soaking up the information!!

 

[Teddscau]

I know with humans at least, a lot of the so called "research" into diet and nutrition is heavily biased and is influenced by farmers and food companies. Like how they say to drink two or three glasses of milk a day or something like that. Anyone who's studied nutrition would know that dairy isn't that good for anyone, and can actually cause a variety of health problems. Only infant mammals should be drinking milk produced by members of their own species.

The same goes for meat. If you eat a plant-based diet, you're getting quality nutrition. Like parrots, we're an opportunistic species. The only reason we began to consume animal products is because we moved into colder climates where we didn't have access to plant foods during the winter. However, with this being 2016, we have a variety of fruits, veggies, grains, etc., available all year long (assuming you live in a developed country). Meat just provided our ancestors with more options. When fruit, veggies, and other wild foods were bountiful, animal products made up very little of their diet.

I guess I kind of got off track there, but I guess I'm just basically agreeing with SailBoat on all the drama involved in nutrition. Plus, if you've ever read about how nutrition studies are done with animals, you wouldn't like it. They typically take a bunch of cockatiels, and see how little or how much of X nutrient it takes to cause them to become deformed, malnourished, or start dying.

Speaking of all the different kinds of jungles, have you read where parrotlets live? I mean, pacifics live in Peru and Ecuador, but choose to live in, umm, interesting habitats. Here: Its natural habitats are subtropical or tropical dry forests, subtropical or tropical moist lowland forests, subtropical or tropical dry shrubland, and heavily degraded former forest.

Yeah, I like how they decide to live in "heavily degraded former forest." That is definitely a weird variety of habitats to live in. That being said, it's probably nicer to live in those habitats than those different kinds of jungles you mentioned.

As for diet, I've decided to give them some fattening food in the morning, along with healthy veggies, etc., so they'll eat a ton of veggies because there's not that much fat in them, but lots of vitamins and minerals. Then, in the evening, we'll finish the day with some more fatty foods (grains, pulses, seeds). That way, they'll be getting some fat and most of their nutrients throughout the day, but finally filling up on the rest of their sprouts and whatnot in the evening when they're tired, have spent a lot of energy foraging, and will have to go without out food while they're sleeping.