Female IRN rejecting mate [PLEASE HELP] Catch22 Problem :-(

[Pixey]

Hi Fellow IRN Parents

Have tried to google this, but cannot find a conclusive solution. Am stressed out to the max, if i was a feathered creature, i would not have a single one left. :-(

We have two babies - an older (by a year) male IRN (Joy, hatched 2015), and female IRN (Hope, hatched 2016). (I've posted before about them here: My baby laid eggs, but not hatching :'( - Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community)

We got Joy in December (about 3 months old) Hope when she was about 6/7 months (got her in Feb, March 2017), The reason for Hope joining the family so late, is that in Jan 2017, we lost our first female IRN, Cheeky, and Joy was extremely stressed over losing his mate. He plucked to a point where i was having anxiety attacks over his failing health, and my partner begrudgingly agreed to get him another mate.

Enter Hope.

Hope bonded with my partner from onset, and took over dominion of the cage immediately - but accepted Joy in her space. They mated last year (2018) without any aggressive behaviour displayed. The eggs (as expected) did not hatch. They co-existed in the one cage with no problems through all this - in spite of Hope's aggression towards us.

I forgot all about the previous post i did last year, it was quite a memory jog to read it

This year, the mating ritual started again, however there was an incident where Hope attacked Joy and nearly killed him. Needless to say, I INSISTED on a separate cage for Joy (for when i have to leave the house), but my partner INSISTED that they still sleep in the same cage due to Joy being extremely stressed out when separated from Hope. We removed the breeding box from Hope's cage as well, but she still nested and laid eggs anyway.

Now we moved homes. Hope's completely abandoned her eggs and does not tolerate Joy in her cage at all anymore. I understand they are extremely stressed at the moment and need time to adjust. But it feels like i am fighting a losing battle, because Joy is adamant to be as close as possible to Hope, to go in to the cage to just "hang out" or to try and feed her.

Hope, on the other hand, is adamant to apparently try and kill Joy.

Joy is not getting the message, and in no way shape or form deterred by Hope's aggressive and violent behaviour. It's almost like he is on a suicide mission. When i close him in his own cage, he becomes very stressed out. When i let him out, he is adamant to go to Hope, who now without fail attacks Joy when Joy comes near her. So Joy is stressed out, either way.

Joy is my ray of sunshine, i rescued him in December 2015 and am emotionally perhaps over attached to this bird. I dearly would like to keep this birdy baby of mine. Hope is my partner's bird, and obviously she's not going anywhere either.

What am i to do? Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

My partner wants them to sleep together in one cage again, but i cannot bear the thought - fear completely overwhelms me. The day that Hope attacked Joy, i was there to witness it and it was a traumatizing experience for me. It's with high levels of anxiety that i relented and allowed Joy to sleep with Hope in the same cage again, only because Joy gets so upset when separated from Hope.

I am definitely, considering the new environment and increased aggressive behaviour, not going to allow them to even sleep together - one morning i will oversleep and then?

What am i to do?

 

[SilverSage]

SEPARATE THEM PERMANENTLY AND IMMEDIATELY.

IRN females are FAMOUS for killing their mates if they don’t like them, and it DOESN’T MATTER if they have successfully mated before. IRNs do not mate for life and she WILL kill him given the chance.

I am not pulling this out of thin air; I raise these guys and I have to manage this behavior and protect my boys EVERY YEAR. Buying two IRNs and expecting them to be a couple as adults is a shot in the dark at best. Add in a close bond between the female and a human and it becomes highly unlikely.

Your partner has good intentions by insisting they share a cage at night but he is fundamentally uniformed about ringneck psychology and it’s going to get Joy killed. They need to be completely separate for his safety.

If you truly feel he needs a close companion, consider another MALE IRN. In the mean time please take drastic steps to curtail their hormones. I’ll attach a link to an article on how to do that.

http://www.silversageaviaries.com/handlinghormones


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[Pixey]

Thanks SilverSage, i've read through the article on how to calm hormones. I will definitely consider moving them to a quiet room at night. The cage is on wheels, so i can wheel it across & out of the vicinity of the livingroom.

The reason my partner feels that they will be fine at night, is because there's never been any incidents or aggressive behaviour displayed towards Joy when it's dark. He feels that once they have adjusted to the new environment, and Hope gets used to Joy being in the cage again at night, that Hope will "warm up" towards Joy and allow him to move in and out of her cage again during the day also.

(In fact, i think he's annoyed with me for insisting that they are separated in the first place, as this has now caused Hope to become even more territorial over her cage).

They are mostly open, we usually only close the cages at night, or when we have to step out of the house during the day. During the move now, they spent a lot of time in their individual cages (and a lot of the times closed, as the movers and constant shuffling of furniture and boxes had them in flying fits inside their cages).

So i know they are very disorientated at the moment, and truthfully, i was hoping for an expert to comfort me that 'life as i knew it' could be restored, with harmony between the two birdies.

But honestly, i have not slept peacefully since that attack that had me rush Joy to the vet - images his limp body tortured me for weeks every time i closed my eyes at night. I've grown relaxed with there not being any repeat incidents - but alas a few close calls (all during the day, never at night).

There is no way a 3rd bird will be allowed, as unfortunately my partner has a strong aversion to the messiness that comes naturally with the birds (but at the same time, he does not have the heart to keep them "locked up").

I feel very anxious and frustrated myself at this seemingly impossible to manage situation. My nerves are in tatters with the constant "having to be on guard" to save Joy if Hope decides to hulk out again.

 

[SilverSage]

She will only get worse, at least between now and the summer, most likely. Even if she goes months between attacks they will only get more vicious. I would not EVER trust her unsupervised with him.


If your partner objects, tell him I told you. I do this for a living, with THIS SPECIES. I’m not a random person with one bird telling you nonsense based on nothing.


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[Pixey]

Thanks SilverSage. I will definitely do so.

How do i handle Joy's obsessive need to be close to Hope without introducing another bird?

We cannot even move towards Hope, and then he becomes hysterical and wants to, (almost like protect?), Hope from us. It's the weirdest behaviour, does IRNs not have any sense of self-preservation?

I know they are bored, i try to spend a lot of time with both of them but i am skittish around Hope and tend to favor Joy because well, my heart goes out to the poor baby. I am hoping to "detach" him from Hope and to bond with me (in a sense that he will not be so HopeCentric anymore) - is there any chance of that happening?

They are bored because any new toys i introduce only serves to freak them out and then gets put one side and forgotten after a while. But they'll rip my skirtings apart with the greatest of pleasure in a heartbeat!

 

[Pixey]

We had to take Joy to the vet today, who is treating her for a serious cold that she's picked up the past couple of days. She has to go back tomorrow and the day after for follow up shots.

The vet says that she is likely stressed out so much due to being lonely, and her environment might be too cold (our house does not get any direct sunlight due to forest area all around us). The vet advised that sleeping them together in one cage might be good for natural body heat.

I nearly keeled over with a heart attack right there, because my partner did not need any more encouragement. So tonight, when time came to put the little ones away for the night, i refused to witness the tucking away of - and stayed anxiously within earshot to rescue Joy if he's in distress, all the while scouring the interwebs for reassurance that aggressive IRN's are not likely to attack at night.

When i finally got the courage together to come inside, i see that both the cages are wrapped, and not just the one as i expected. Turns out Joy did NOT WANT TO go in old cage as when my partner put him in Hope's cage, he promptly exited.

I am so relieved, i am actually sitting here crying. How silly.

SilverSage, is there any chance that i can train Joy to bond with me, is there anything at all that i, as a human, can do to lessen Joy's distress over not having an accepting mate?

I have gently started to push for a third bird to keep Joy company, an older male? Too scared to get a baby and have it turn out to be another hormone crazed female. But this is a pipedream. In fact, if Joy's health does not improve, i am going to start looking for a suitable home for him, because even though it will break my heart, i cannot stand by while my baby withers away in front of my eyes and i am so bloody helpless to do anything about it.

 

[SilverSage]

The FIRST step to getting him to calm down about his mate is to take the steps outlined in the article; the less hormonal he is the less he will be frantic for her. Have you taken those steps?


Are they clipped or flighted?

Yes you can absolutely still work with them and train them BOTH. As for getting a tame adult male, it can be done but they are extremely hard to find and of course there is never a guarantee two birds will get along, but why does it need to be older? Is there a specific reason a young male is out of the question? I’m not saying you need another bird, just that if you get one I recommend a male since you want a safer companion for Joy.

I’m sorry to hear he’s ill! How cold is your house? My Ringnecks play in the snow lol so I don’t buy that he got cold from BEING cold unless you moved from a very hot house to a very chilly one, like a difference of 20-30 degrees without giving the birds time to adjust. Do you have a brooder or can you turn on the heat? Because regardless of what caused the illness, heat and fluid are important for recovery,


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[Pixey]

The FIRST step to getting him to calm down about his mate is to take the steps outlined in the article; the less hormonal he is the less he will be frantic for her. Have you taken those steps?

Busy with this. We are going to move their cages in to back room that's dark & considerably warmer as that room gets sun. But first have to fix the bird stand that we have for day time play in the living area and build an area where they can "hang out" when i am home (which is 80% of the time) - so that we dont have to move the cages back and forth.

Putting them to bed early at the moment (as they are adamant to be out the cage at first light) - and currently nobody is allowed to watch TV (to keep it quiet).

We used to feed them warm porridge in the mornings, now i am making sure it's cold before dishing. And going to wean them off that completely, but i will be met with resistance on this by my human companion.

Their diet currently consists mostly out of the bird porridge & wildbird seeds, cashews, peanuts, grapes & apple and occasional pecan nuts. Unseasoned veggies? I try my best - but they prefer potatoes, sweet potato, usually discard any greens etc.

Are they clipped or flighted?

Clipped. I have certain challenges with training, and for their safety keep their wings clipped.

Yes you can absolutely still work with them and train them BOTH. As for getting a tame adult male, it can be done but they are extremely hard to find and of course there is never a guarantee two birds will get along, but why does it need to be older? Is there a specific reason a young male is out of the question? I’m not saying you need another bird, just that if you get one I recommend a male since you want a safer companion for Joy.

I meant older as in already has a ring (to know with certainty that it's a male). But alas, the chances of me getting a 3rd bird companion for Joy is slim to none. Perhaps my "dripping tap" approach will work, but it takes forever as i live with very stubborn creatures all around.

I’m sorry to hear he’s ill! How cold is your house? My Ringnecks play in the snow lol so I don’t buy that he got cold from BEING cold unless you moved from a very hot house to a very chilly one, like a difference of 20-30 degrees without giving the birds time to adjust. Do you have a brooder or can you turn on the heat? Because regardless of what caused the illness, heat and fluid are important for recovery,

It's a weird place, still getting to know it. Downstairs i keep a jacket, upstairs i get too warm with a jacket on. It's like the house is bipolar, just a pity i cannot put it on meds to fix it. It's no colder or warmer than the previous home, in my opinion, but i am perimenopausal (apparently) and cannot comment properly on temperatures.

The vet said its purely due to stress (Joy's been over-preening, it's obvious he is stressed out). So the lowered immune system could have caused it, and it's a nasal infection (upper resp tract something), not in his lungs.


If i can get my way, i would love to remove their nuts and fruit (their favorites) and use this for training reinforcement. But my human in the house insists on treats for all, all day long. Planning on doing this sneakily, but when he gets home, the treats are always dished out immediately if it's noted that none has been put out.

I appreciate my partner, he really genuinely loves the birds, and they all seem to blooming bond with him as they always want to sit with daddy when he is home. But he treats them like human kids (and the human ones are spoilt too go figure!!) and it a source of conflict with us a lot of the time.

Easy does it, i suppose.

 

[SilverSage]

That diet is a huge contributor to your current hormonal problem. If you can get your partner to see that he is causing them sexual frustration by spoiling them rather than contributing to their happiness, that may help. They really should be on an extremely low sugar diet; sprouts, veggies (seasoning is fine, avoid salt, garlic, onion), pellets, MODERATE nuts and a few seeds as treats. NO MUSH! No fruit, no potatoes or other starches.


If you can, let Joy grow his wings back. This will help keep him safe if he is attacked.


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[SilverSage]

As for if you add an additional bird, it’s as simple as choosing a breeder or store who DNA sexes their birds; no need to wait 2-3 years.


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[Pixey]

Thanks SilverSage, for taking the time to read & respond. I really appreciate it.

Going to fight like hell going forward, it's been a very educational couple of days.

 

[SilverSage]

We are all in your corner rooting for you and your flock!


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[Pixey]

Joy's cold/infection is doing better.

Wish i could train my human creature also ><

Would make this entire process so much easier.

 

[SilverSage]

I hear you there! I think many of us with human partners agree!


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