Dog training vs. Parrot training

[DebsFlock]

ttouch, natural horsemanship and lyons and so forth, classical dressage and eventing person myself, tellington-jones, xenophon

hey!!!! Can y'all speak english so the rest of us have 1/2 a clue what the heck yer sayin'??? :d:09::20:

That there some secret woman code or sumthin?!?!?!

roflmao.
:d:d:d

Ooopsie! Kind of like "She turned me into a newt!" "Got better...."

Sorry!

Anyhow, what I've read suggests that parrots don't have a rigid pecking order, it's more whoever is best placed to call the shots at a given moment gets followed. Given that, I think it's more a matter of being a teacher and a good leader than a drill seargent or "alpha". Certainly my attempts to work with Scooter's issues by "being firm and not letting him get away with it" just led to more of the behavior I didn't want. Staying out of his hair until he was in a more willing frame of mind seems to have restored his good nature. Or maybe it's all a coincidence....

 

[luvmytooo]

Wow, good question. Now that I think about it, this is the first time I've been without a dog in about 10+ years. (We lost our dog to illness almost 2 years ago) All I've ever had is German Shepherds and our last was an import from East Germany. I honestly think a dog does learn slightly quicker, I DEFINITELY think a dog is more intuitive than a parrot. The biggest difference is their life span obviously, a parrot also goes thru a "puberty" stage if you will. I also think "most" parrots tend to focus on an individual as opposed to a "family". This is the best scenario I can give for my statements: When I bought our last dog (Shadow) I was mainly getting her as a "protection" dog, Con had just been born and my job changed into a rotating shift position which included 12 hour days AND nights which were all variable (could be 5 days or nights in a row or as little as 2 :52 On top of that we had to relocate & were living in a new town. Shadow immediately became a close member to the whole family, I think my oldest boy was around 10 at the time. It soon became apparent that Shadow did not like ANYONE that was not family. If someone visited (which was rare, new town, crazy work schedule) Shadow had to be put up. Ok, NOW I'm getting to my point....When Conner would be given a bath we had one of those ring things with suction cups to make him sit up in the tub (with one of us watching of course) I think Con was around 6 mos. old. That dog having been taught NOTHING but the basic, sit, stay, lie down did the most amazing thing in the world..... she would get INTO the tub with Conner, sit down & just watch him the entire time he was in there! :11: There are some things you just can't explain about that dog and that was the first major one (of many). I just don't see a parrot having that kind of "mindset" or "instinct"

Sorry I got long winded, haven't talked about her in a long time, she is still SORELY missed by all of us (including Con). I'll share some other things about her in the appropriate forum.

WharfRat , I totally forgot to mention your black GSD , she was gorgeous !!!
Such a beautiful picture , it shows the true testiment of a GSD ,to love and protect her owner .
Im sure she is still watching over you and your family from
the rainbow bridge

 

[ivysaur]

I haven't had a dog since I was in high school, but I've worked with horses quite a bit, and I have a friend that does agility and flyball with her dogs. So that's my resumé.

I think horses, dogs and birds are all VERY different. And parrots are even more unique because they aren't actually domesticated, they are still essentially wild creatures even when raised by hand, they have not been selectively bred to be easier to work with yet.

To some extent all creatures respond to the basic tools of behavior modification, but the popular opinion right now, as far as I can tell, is that with parrots you are best focusing as much as possible on positive reinforcement. My limited experience is consistent with this. I have done far, far better when I've tried to focus on encouraging behavior I want than on discouraging behavior I don't want, and on finding a way to make my bird want to do what I want than on domination or forcing the issue.

There are times you HAVE to be a bit forceful, but I think trying to apply concepts like being the alpha or the boss or more dominant don't seem to work with birds. Be firm and persistent, yes, but not "put them in their place". They aren't rigidly hierarchical, and if you try to dominate them, they seem to be inclined to just take their toys and go home rather than to respond in a positive way.

I've done better with my guys by letting them say "no" if they don't want to come out, for example. If they start NEVER wanting to come out, then I'll have to find a reason to make it desirable to want to be out. In early training I think ample reward to make it worth while to do what you ask is probably the best policy. That said, Scotty knows well and truly what "step up" means. If he gives me that blank look and echoes "Step up" back at me while either not moving at all, or deciding to regurgitate for me, I know he just plain doesn't WANT to. If I don't NEED him to, I don't make him, but if he's out and I really need him to go back in the cage, we have a good enough relationship that I can just scoop him up, which is rather forcing the issue. But I give him some attention for letting me do it before I put him back inside. If it ever becomes a real problem, I suppose I'll have to go back to basics and re-train the interaction, but I'm not really that into formal training with my birds, just shaping their behavior enough that we are all getting along and having a good time.

Actually I think Scotty is a bit bored and I may try some more formal training, but that would definitely be entirely encouragement based as the whole point is to amuse him.

I tried training Scooter for some basic tricks once, and his whole attitude was "OK.... but can't I do something more fun like rip up this paper towel?".

A-ha! This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. THANK YOU! Yes that makes perfect sense about them not actually being domesticated. Everything with wild animals is on their terms, domesticated are on ours, and parrots, being tame but not domesticated, can be taught to work with us but definitely not "under our control" in the dog-or-cat sense. I guess I just wanted some parrot philosophy. So. If she's not into training, I'm not gonna push her. BUT if I really need her to do something (like wake up and take her meds like i'm about to ask her to do), it's going to be positive-based ("Hey look at this almond!"), not command-based.

And don't even get me started on the whole "alpha" thing. People who train dogs like that make me flip out. Ha! Nothing like that will EVER happen to my li'l parrot, that's for sure. I want a relationship, not a dominion!

 

[ivysaur]

. I honestly think a dog does learn slightly quicker

Interesting! In my short time with my first parrot, I feel like the opposite is true. She seems to care less about learning than a dog, but picks things up in a few days rather than weeks. Took my corgi 6 months to learn "down"! Haha he's a genius but he was sure a stubborn puppy.

 

[Oedipussrex]

Is it wrong to be commanding toward a bird? Like if she needs to step up, but grumbles at me and doesn't, am I supposed to leave her alone because she's an intelligent creature, or be persistent because she needs to listen to me? Hmm.

most of the training i do with pickle he still gets the final decision on what he wants to do. I just have to kind of be a little manipulative and trick him into thinking it was what he wanted and his idea. XD lol

Some parrots a scheming little buggers who try and train us!

like, if a bird didn't want a bath, and you just picked them up and plopped them in the bath and then tried to treat them, they probably wouldn't even want the treat - the treat wouldn't make them think the bath is all okay now - because theyre too busy trying to get out, and this can just make them trust you less and do less for you next time...

you can be persistent without actually forcing them to do something they don't want to and eventually they'll give in to whatever bribery you are offering. IMO

 

[luvmytooo]

So I'm realizing my problem is that all my animal training experience is with dogs and I find myself treating my bird like one. Can someone help clear up differences?

For instance, when a dog is being all "i don't feel like taking a bath," you have to just push them in the tub, or else they'll have you wrapped around their little paw-finger. I'm not talking about cruel forcing, i mean when they're just being "spooty" which is a word my family made up for a pet knowing exactly what they should be doing but just not doing it to be a poop!

Is it wrong to be commanding toward a bird? Like if she needs to step up, but grumbles at me and doesn't, am I supposed to leave her alone because she's an intelligent creature, or be persistent because she needs to listen to me? Hmm.

IMO , you can't get forceful with something you want the bird to do voluntarily like step up. Everything we ask of our birds is something that we hope they will volunteer . I don't understand how you could "make" a bird step up without having the bird either try to bite or fly away or just plain avoid you some other way....so , in the end , your teaching the bird to avoid you at all costs.
it doesn't see any other choice and IMO they don't reason with us meaning
" if i don't step up she will just force me to do it so I better do it." No , they will just say "see ya" and avoid us completely.
You have to make it worth their while...If their is something you just have to do for its health , like give meds , you just gotta do it unless you can hide it in food , etc...

With dogs , I always tell my students to never tell their dog to "come" if its for something the dog won't enjoy , like a bath if the dog hates water or to take medicine etc.....I tell them just to go get your dog. If your dog associates you saying "come" with a bad experience the dog may decide its not worth it and blow you off. This can be dangerous if you are calling the dog from running into the street or just out the door. They will most likely keep going.
And I remind them that rewards , no matter in what form , have to be given in a timely manner. If we wait say a minute or two before giving the treat , the dog will forget what its done for this treat. In their eyes its all good , but we didn't reward the right behavior. IMO , It would be the same with birds.
You don't have to click , you just need to be able to mark the correct behavior immediately .
Ok , so I like training...........so what

 

[azdesertrhino]

I gotta think on this one a bit :20:

I smell something burning!!

With our B&G I feel like I'm raising a child again at times.

OH Great, In the future I'll have a "know it all" teenager again!!

 

[luvmytooo]

I gotta think on this one a bit :20:

I smell something burning!!

With our B&G I feel like I'm raising a child again at times.

OH Great, In the future I'll have a "know it all" teenager again!!

Oh boy. , here we go again , lolol.

 

[ivysaur]

With dogs , I always tell my students to never tell their dog to "come" if its for something the dog won't enjoy , like a bath if the dog hates water or to take medicine etc.....I tell them just to go get your dog. If your dog associates you saying "come" with a bad experience the dog may decide its not worth it and blow you off. This can be dangerous if you are calling the dog from running into the street or just out the door. They will most likely keep going.
And I remind them that rewards , no matter in what form , have to be given in a timely manner. If we wait say a minute or two before giving the treat , the dog will forget what its done for this treat. In their eyes its all good , but we didn't reward the right behavior. IMO , It would be the same with birds.
You don't have to click , you just need to be able to mark the correct behavior immediately .
Ok , so I like training...........so what

A+! Yes definitely that's the way to train dogs right. I work at a pet store and god I am tired of talking to people who think they know dogs better than me. People who think it's OK to be mad at a dog if they come to you too slowly.... Jeez. "Come" needs to be a good thing EVERY TIME no matter what!

 

[IgnisSol]

With dogs , I always tell my students to never tell their dog to "come" if its for something the dog won't enjoy , like a bath if the dog hates water or to take medicine etc.....I tell them just to go get your dog. If your dog associates you saying "come" with a bad experience the dog may decide its not worth it and blow you off. This can be dangerous if you are calling the dog from running into the street or just out the door. They will most likely keep going.
And I remind them that rewards , no matter in what form , have to be given in a timely manner. If we wait say a minute or two before giving the treat , the dog will forget what its done for this treat. In their eyes its all good , but we didn't reward the right behavior. IMO , It would be the same with birds.
You don't have to click , you just need to be able to mark the correct behavior immediately .
Ok , so I like training...........so what

Are you a dog trainer?

 

[IgnisSol]

I use the same methods on my dogs and my bird, with a little alteration. First of all our dogs aren't stupid, they know we are not dogs, so therefore we are not their "pack leader"
I do not use a punishment, I withhold the reward, which is what they use at sea world

So for an example my bird is still learning step up, I place my finger infront of him and say "step up", then he steps up and I click and give him a treat. But if he did not step up I would have calmly taken my finger away and not clicked or say anything and I would wait 5 secs and try again

So with my dog I am teaching her "spin", so for her I say the cue and she spins, I click and she gets a treat, but if she didn't spin, then again I don't click or say anything, she doesn't get a treat and I wait 5 secs and try again

 

[khaiqha]

I think one thing people tend to miss out on as far as comparing dogs and parrots is that dogs are predators, and parrots are prey animals. Parrots will almost always have some level of "something can eat me right now" stuck in their head. Forcing a bird to obey and go against its instincts is just not going to work most of the time (generally I dislike the idea of flooding).

Also, birds have an amazing ability to be in sync with people. The reason hundreds of birds can fly so close to each other without crashing is because they are so in sync with each other. I've noticed that my parrots reflect any emotion I broadcast at them. If I'm sleepy, they're sleepy. If I'm happy, they're
happy. If I'm angry, they're angry (which makes for a really bad situation).

You can see this happen every time a person scared of birds approaches one. The parrot will pick up on that fear and be scared itself (or in the case of my bird it will sense you're scared of it and totally own you).