Devastated to be doing this

[LaurenB]

Hi everyone.

I've been gone from the forums for quite awhile. There are several reasons for this but most notably is the horrible direction my relationship with Tiki, my Green Cheek Conure, has headed in.

I've had Tiki since January of 2015. We went through a honeymoon phase, followed by a phase where she wanted nothing to do with me and was very aggressive. This aggressive phase lasted for about a month, and then everything was PERFECT... for about two months. Then she gradually started biting me more and more.

Please listen and believe me when I say that I have tried EVERYTHING. I've read all of the posts on this website. I've googled and read every article I could find. I even reached out to a bird rescuer/behaviorist who offered me excellent articles and advice. Saying "No", Not reacting, The 'Earthquake', Putting her in her cage, Putting her down and walking away, 'Mr. Towel', Putting her on the floor, Starting from scratch with 'step up' command. Nothing has worked. In fact, it has only gotten worse.

This is extremely emotional for me and please let me explain. Please don't just judge me as someone who has a biting bird and isn't willing try and is just giving up.

I love Tiki more than I can describe. This whole situation honestly hurts more than when a pet actually dies. I'm in so much emotional pain that I physically hurt.

What makes this so difficult is how much Tiki is bonded to me. She only wants to be with me. If I try to sit her down and walk away she flies to me. If my husband tries to take her, she'll fly right back to me. I know she loves me, and I've tried so so hard to make things good between us but I'm just failing and it's only getting worse.

I used to be able to wear nitrile gloves and handle her without any problems... it was only my bare hands that would cause her to bite. But now, she bites through the gloves, too. When she bites, she doesn't let go. I used to pry her beak off with my other fingers, but she just changes direction and bites that instead. It's to the point where I have to shake her off and I am so so afraid that I'm going to hurt her. I could never ever live with myself if I hurt her.

It's only getting worse. And it's so bizarre that I can't even describe what is happening. She will fly to me and be on my shoulder, then climb down to my hands because she wants to be pet. But then, like a nasty cat, she snaps and decides she's done being pet and latches on.

She bites me if:

1. I don't scratch her
2. I do scratch her
3. I talk to someone else that isn't her
4. When I talk to her instead
5. When I make a kissy noise, whistle, or sing, she will attack my face
6. I touch a plastic bag and it makes a crinkle sound
7. If I have food
Basically anytime I do anything other than sit still and be a statue... and even that isn't a guarantee.

Just a moment ago I was sitting with her. She was on my hand, preening herself, after a day filled with biting me. And I just started crying because I am so heart broken. She flew onto my shoulder and tried to attack my face, but when I dodged it, she bit my ear, drawing blood. So I tried to get her off my shoulder onto my hands and it turned into a psychotic, biting attack fest.

I feel like a complete failure. I know everyone here loves their bird, and I love mine just as much, if not more, which is why I am so completely devastated.

But it's to the point where spending time with her is literally emotionally draining. It's become mentally unhealthy for me to have this bird. I know that sounds insane but please don't judge me just please try to understand how much I love her.

I have to do what's right for Tiki and myself. I am so afraid if I rehome her, I won't ever be able to get over it or forgive myself. But I fear that the direction we're heading in will result in me accidentally hurting her, just from trying to get her off... and I definitely could not live with myself for that.

I'm putting this in the adoption section because I would love nothing more than to find her a home with someone who has parrot experience.

The most important part of this whole message, is that it is ONLY me that Tiki is biting. My mom, mother-in-law, husband, and friends can all handle her completely fine. She has never bitten anyone except me. That's why I think finding a new home for her might be what is best for her. It's something about ME that is making her crazy.

I don't understand how I have Tiki, who has been this stressful, emotional, confusing bird and then Nacho, who is the easiest, nicest, friendliest bird that I can touch/poke/prod/handle however who has never ever bitten me. How did I manage to have such a drastically different effect on two different birds?

I want to do what is best for Tiki. I have to put aside my feelings, while still looking out for myself. This is no longer healthy for me.

I am located in Southern Pennsylvania - very close to the Maryland line if anyone would be interested in meeting her. Please understand how hard this will be for me and it won't be an instant transition. I want to know where she is going, where she will be living, and really know the person/family she will be going with. Maybe even with the possibility of me visiting her from time to time. I know I'm asking a lot but that's just how much I care.

 

[SilverSage]

I'm so sorry to hear this. Unfortunately she sounds like an abusive spouse. Hopefully someone here will be able to help. I also suggest reaching out to any bird clubs or rescues that might be in your area. They might know of someone looking for a bird.

 

[kq_fan]

Oh no, I'm so sorry that it came to this. I hope she finds the home she needs.

 

[Captsteve]

Wow, She sounds extremely hormonal.

 

[Kyoto]

I am so sorry to hear I know this is probably how my husband feels, as our Kyo acts much the same towards him. I hope everything resolves for you <3

 

[Aquila]

I'm located up in Northeast Philly, I can see about coming down sometime to see her. Although I'm a little loaded with birds right now, I'd be more than willing to help you as much as I can. You can PM me anytime, I'm up odd hours and would love to help you.

 

[MonicaMc]

Do you love your bird??? And do you want to keep her?


Seriously. I'm asking. You mentioned that you've "tried everything", but "everything" that you did is not what you should have done. In fact, it was just plain bad advice! If a bird is biting you, sure, get the bird off of you! But other than that, you have not tried EVERYTHING! In fact, I don't see anything that stands out that you *SHOULD* have done! (not to say that the advice can't work... believe me, it does! but to what detrimental effect to the bird?)



Have you read any of the advice from Barbara Heidenreich? Watched her Youtube videos? Read her blog? Done a webinar with her? Attended one of her workshops?

What about Lara Joseph? Have you read her blog? Done a webinar with her? Attended one of her workshops?

Or what about Susan Friedman? Have you read her website? Attended one of her online classes?

And there's Hillary Hankey... Kelly Ballance.... Steve Martin... Melinda Johnson.... Karen Pryor.... Chris Shank....




If you haven't read any of the advice from these people, read any of their blogs or articles, or attended any of their webinars or workshops, then you have not tried everything! And I guarantee you that if you were to speak with these people, read their information, watch their videos, etc then you *CAN* turn your relationship around with Tiki!




To get you started, here is a GREAT webinar from Barbara Heidenreich!

http://www.parrotforums.com/trainin...omed-parrots-barbara-heidenreich-webinar.html

 

[Nakiska]

Oh my goodness! I have this bird too!! I'm not kidding... You described our adopted Sun Conure exactly... Only difference is...its my husband who is the "victim.

My husband will no longer handle Sunny at all. Sunny is great with me as long as hubby is not around.

Even worse... Sunny screams for his attention, and that wears on our nerves, because it is nearly non stop if he can see or hear hubby in the house. If Sunny is out and hubby happens to come home early, the moment Sunny sees him walk in the door he flies to him, makes all these cute little sounds and then...wham! Hubby is getting it. I have to have a stick ready to get Sunny off him because he will draw blood from me as well. And then it's a battle if him staying on stick as he keeps flying off to be with Hubby.

We have had him almost 3 years now and we have definitely entertained the idea of re-homing him. We have excellent relationships with our 5 other birds. They have their own challenges, but nothing close to what we have experienced with Sunny.

I am the only reason Sunny is still with us...only because...I really DO enjoy him and he is soo good as long as hubby is gone.

I am going to go check out the names and link MonicaMC posted...if I can create a better balance with Sunny...I am sure we will all be happier.

If not...I can not guarantee that we are his forever home. :-( Sunny will be 6 years old in may.

Anyway...I feel for you, I truly do and fully support what ever decision you make.

Good luck,

Toni

 

[bigbluemacaw]

I'm so sorry to hear this but she is probably best placed as an aviary bird with others of her species rather than as another Pet. Some birds just don't work well with humans and it's so sad but ultimately if they don't, they're better of with other birds and maybe they'll even breed. I feel for you I really do

God bless

Mark
xx

 

[Anansi]

...I am going to go check out the names and link birdman posted...if I can create a better balance with Sunny...I am sure we will all be happier.

Credit where credit's due, the names and link were provided by MonicaMc.

The behavior that you're both describing is due to overbonding. Your birds have come to view their favored persons as their mates.

Lauren, there's no judgement, here. I don't doubt that you've tried as hard as you could. From the sounds of it, you love Tiki very much. But as Monica mentioned, despite trying very hard, you might not have tried everything.

Now, if you feel that you are truly at the end of your rope as far as Tiki is concerned, then you should do what's best for you, your family, and Tiki herself. No one knows the dynamic between you and your bird like you do. No one. So no one can judge whether or not you've reached that point of no return but you.

That said, however, if you do have it within you to keep trying, I recommend that you try researching those names Monica provided. I'm familiar with a few, and they may open your eyes to an approach that you have yet to come across.

There are many different perspectives on bird training. And there are also many different personality types in the avian world. So what worked for one may not necessarily work for another.

For this reason, you shouldn't feel like a failure. Training techniques should be somewhat fluid. I personally believe every bird has a "key", so to speak. But that key is far from universal. There are many similarities between how I approach Maya and how I approach Jolly, but they are most certainly not identical. It's just a matter of finding your bird's "key".

Another thing that occurred to me in reading your post is that you've tried a wide array of techniques. Within a space of under 10 months, it appears that you've attempted tactics ranging from Old School to New School Behavioral. But a large part of training depends upon consistency. Much of avian learning is based on association. But if actions and their associated results vary as widely as the differences between Old School and New, the template for your bird's learning will be inherently flawed.

As children, we learn to avoid touching fire because it ALWAYS burns. We learn that an apple thrown in the air will inevitably fall because it ALWAYS does.

While it's possible to take elements from both schools of thought, you must be consistent in which elements you adopt and how they are employed. But you cannot use a New School approach for a certain behavior one week, and then switch to the Old School variant in the next. All that would do is confuse, and likely frustrate, the bird.

Neither technique works overnight. Just not the nature of the beast. Their results can only be accurately measured over time, and with consistent application.

Monica, and at least some (though I'd wager all) of the names she's mentioned are from the New School Positive Behavioral model.

You can also look up Old School approaches if you want to do comparative research, and then pick your method. Or combination thereof. (Although again, don't alternate between methods on a particular behavior. Mixed signals largely do more harm than good.)

Or, as I said before, if you decide that you've already crossed that particular Rubicon insofar as Tiki is concerned, there's no shame in that. Regardless what you choose, Lauren, or you, Toni, there's no judgement. I wish you the best.

 

[Nakiska]

Thank you Anansi It was VERY early in the morning and I was viewing from my cell phone...I SWEAR it said birdman...anyway I went and edited my post.

Thanks for the catch!

I certainly feel the OP's frustration and pain. As I mentioned, we've had Sunny for almost 3 years (in February) And I adopted him as a 3 year old.

I tried all different cage placement situations and after a LOT of trial and error, he now lives in our office, as that's what has reduced his screaming. Myself or my son typically get him out and play with him, usually myself. Sunny is a sweet, sweet boy as long as hubby isn't around.

Like now, he's playing hide and seek in my shirt collar.

I figured Sunny's problem with my husband was overbonding...it was instantaneous...the moment he saw him.

Crazy how some birds can be! LOL

Well best wishes to the original poster and thanks again Anansi!

Toni

 

[MonicaMc]

Thanks Anansi!

Nakiska, you might find one of Hillary Hankey's new posts informative as well.

Parrot Behavior Myths: Building Trust | Learning Parrots




I do not believe that Tiki is an aviary bird. From the sounds of it, he is a pet bird that is simply misunderstood by the one he most cares for! I think this blog says it best!

Living With Parrots Cage Free: My Bird Knows When She Is Bad, Right?? !! (Hmmm)...





I think the only way for Tiki to turn around and change for the better is if Lauren can take everything she has learned about parrot behavior and training and throw it away! To forget about it! To start from scratch as if Tiki is a new bird that she has never met, and Tiki may be afraid and/or aggressive. Start with a clean slate and try interacting with Tiki in a way that will not result in getting bitten. This might even require keeping Tiki in a cage for a few weeks or even a couple of months! However, considering that conures have the potential lifespan of 20-30 years (if not more!), that short of time frame means *NOTHING* and can be a great way to build up trust with a bird! And learn to not get bitten!


Now, the only bite that can't be rewarded is the bite that never occurs. If a bird is never put into a situation where they feel the need to bite, then the bird never learns to bite in the first place. Biting is a self defense mechanism as well as an extreme form of communication.

If someone wanted my attention and they tapped me on my shoulder, and I told them "Not right now, I'm busy", but they kept tapping me, I might ask them to "Please stop that." If they continued tapping me on my shoulder, completely disregarding the fact that I've told them to leave me alone and I show no interest in paying attention to them, then I might start yelling at them to leave me alone. If they persisted, then I might even slap them! If my point still wasn't taken, and they persisted, then I might even go as far as punching and kicking to get my point across that I want to be left alone!

Unfortunately, birds end up being put in similar situations where they do not feel comfortable with humans, or maybe they aren't ready to interact physically with humans, or maybe they don't understand what it is the human wants, but when we persist in our behavior, despite the bird telling us to back off (sleek feathers, wings tight to the body, leaning away, looking for escape routes, eyes pinning, beak open, neck feathers ruffled, wide stance, possibly tail feathers fanned and wings slightly open with body feathers ruffled out, etc), then the bird is going to take it to the next step that they know which is biting and screaming.

The moment that bird bites is the moment they learn that you don't pay attention and they may need to bite you again the next time, too, to get their point across. But what happens instead? We punish the bird for *OUR* wrong doing! *WE* weren't "listening" to the bird, so *WE* put ourselves, and the bird, in a situation that resulted in a bite! And who gets punished for the poor behavior? Sadly, the bird. That's not the way it should be! Instead, we should be trying to figure out *WHERE* we went wrong and what we could do next time to pay more attention to the bird and not put the bird in a situation that will result in a bite!

 

[LaurenB]

Thank you all so much for your responses and attempts to help. This has been truly taxing on me emotionally. Perhaps maybe I'm not stable enough to own a parrot if I care THIS much. I don't have it in me to type a long response like I want to. I will later once I've calmed down a bit more... Hopefully.

The point I am trying to get across is that we have reached the point where I can no longer let Tiki out of her cage safely.

I feel like I can't seem to get my point across accurately. I don't know if it's because I'm not explaining properly or because it's just so bizarre that you would just have to witness it.

Let me describe my most recent (and final, I fear) interaction with Tiki. I waited until my husband got home from work after posting my original post before handling her again.

We walked into her room. I opened her cage door, and as is always the case, she was out of it before it was even open just a crack. She climbs immediately onto my hand, usually while it is still on the cage door. If I do not offer her a step up, she will just fly onto my shoulder... And I generally try to avoid the shoulder area now that she targets my ears.

She sat on my (gloved) hand and preened for a bit, then put her head down and weaseled her way under my fingers for scratches, so I obliged. Eventually, she rolled over onto her back in my hand, getting scritched and loving it, eyes closed and toes curled. Then I sniffed, and she was onto my shoulder and latched onto my ear before I could even blink. She ripped and tore through my glove and my husband had to pry her away to get her back in the cage.

I truly just don't understand in that scenario how I could have done anything "wrong".

The next morning, like always, the instant her door was opened a crack she was onto my hand, storming up my arm to my shoulder. I blocked her path with my hand and she latched on again.

I am now wearing winter gloves when I change her food and water. I've also started wearing a baseball hat so that she is afraid of me.

I truly appreciate everyone's responses. I promise to write back and read through any articles I haven't yet seen. Most of the information I received from the parrot behaviorist were by Steve Martin. His articles led me to believe that Tiki was afraid of me, as he insists parrots ONLY bite out of fear. I'm sure he knows WAY more than me, but I call BS. At least in my situation. And nobody understands my situation but me. I can't write about this anymore. I've been down this road so many times and I am so emotionally drained. I can't get my hopes up anymore. Is it really fair to Tiki for me to keep trying and failing?

 

[MonicaMc]

There are some things by Steve Martin I don't agree with.... but he does work with parrots in a completely different way than the majority of parrot owners do....


And honestly, I wouldn't recommend letting Tiki out of her cage until she can reliably target anywhere within her cage.




The question is, are you willing to start from scratch and see if you can turn her behavior around by trying different techniques, and understanding it can take a while?




What happens if you end up rehoming her to someone else who sounds like they can deal with Tiki when they can't? And they end up rehoming Tiki to another home due to the same issues? How many homes might it take before she ends up with someone who *can* handle her? Or will she end up in a home, ignored, because the person can't handle her and doesn't want to find the ideal home for her?

This is, unfortunately, one of the down sides of having to rehome a bird... you don't know for sure what kind of situation the bird is going into.

 

[MyFlock]

One thing I've found out about some GCCs is if they think they can get away with bullying and intimidating you they will do just that! While other GCCs are pure sweethearts and woukd never think of such a thing, I think it just depends on bird, perhaps genetics or something.

Have you tried holding the beak like Birdman suggests to biting GCCs and say sternly no biting? It's something you would have to repeat over and over until the bird finally gets it. You can't be fearful or afraid of your bird because they will know this and take advantage of you. Just my thoughts, I'm no expert but I had a scrappy bullying GCC ( who's no longer that way) and one that came to me a true sweetheart- never had any problems with her.

Good luck whatever you decide. Rehoming could be tricky too as Monica suggested. Not too many people want to take on a problem bird

 

[MonicaMc]

I wouldn't personally recommend holding a bird's beak to get them to stop biting....



That would be like covering a person's mouth to get them to shut up, which would only piss them off more...

 

[MyFlock]

I've never used that technique. My GCC stopped his behavior after three rounds of medication where I had to towel him. Toweling must have had some effect on him.

 

[Dinosrawr]

Personally, is find holding a GCC's beak more of a risk. I can't actually grasp it and more often than not it pisses my conure off more than need be. I went through a phase very similar to yours, Lauren, and it was a bout of typical conure hormones in my case. Avery was NOT touchable. I didn't really discuss it on the forum too much because I figured I could handle it with time (considering I was expecting it) after a few initial threads and it turned out just fine thank goodness.

It started off with extreme jealousy. I couldn't hug my boyfriend or talk to him in the vicinity of Avery. She would displacement bite me on the face, the ear, the hands, anything she could latch on to. While she's a nibbler and she's prone to being beaky, she's never been much of a chomper... but hormones changed that. I couldn't open the cage door without being nailed, I couldn't have her step up on me, and she most certainly was not allowed on the shoulder (didn't have to clip because she's not a confident flyer). It was a few months of not being able to interact with her due to fear of being torn into. I was terrified to kiss her like I used to because when I tried, she'd latch onto my lip or cheek and I'd have to towel her in order to calm her down and place her away from me (in the cage, on a play stand, etc). When I did take her out, it was literally me opening the door as fast as I could and running because she would crawl out like a bat out of hell and give me aggressive displays [emoji33]. I couldn't even be near her if she was on the back of the couch, because if I rested my head against the back she would charge towards my face.

So what did I do? I honestly just let her be. I stopped trying to physically interact with her. I would target train her, I would talk to her, I would sit down with her on the ground in a different room to help dissolve some of the territoriality that seemed to come with the hormones. I think it was about three months of not even being able to touch her before she finally calmed down again. One day she was just fine - the hormones seemed to calm down and I nearly cried when I had my cuddle bug back.

I look at it with rose coloured glasses for the most part because I wasn't actually bit that often because I essentially tried to prevent it in the first place. I knew that touching her would result in me bleeding, so I just didn't touch her. Talking to her was fine, target training her was fine (the treat would go into her treat bowl), just being in the same room was fine. Our bond is perfectly fine despite a few months of not even being physically close. We tend to project our physical desire for closeness onto birds without thinking of the birds and what reactions they'll give. We just assume they want to snuggle us as much as we do them.

I don't think that you're too emotionally unstable for a bird, or that you care too much. I think you just need to take some time to calm down, reflect for a bit, and try to detach your emotions from each biting scenario that happens. Some of the best advice I ever received was to never take a bite personally. If a bird hated you, you'd know and you wouldn't need a few bites to make you aware.

You've received a lot of excellent advice. My only advice is to not give up and to stop relying on physical interaction with your bird to establish a bond for the time being. If she flies to your shoulder simply to attack you, maybe it's time to give her a light enough clip where she can't fly with ease but still has enough feather to land safely. It's temporary, it can help prevent her from getting to your shoulder to attack you, and if you leave and she's out it won't be as easy for her to seek you out and inflict temperamental damage. The clip isn't to "put her in her place" or to force her to listen to you, it's for your own personal safety.

I really hope you're able to figure things out. Tiki obviously loves you, she just seems to be having difficulty figuring out how to appropriately express her love.

 

[LaurenB]

After discussing things further with my vet, she has suggested we try Lupron injections for her hormones. I'm going to post another thread to see if anyone has any first hand experience.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies, suggestions, advice, and encouragement.

 

[Just-Passn-Thru]

Personally, is find holding a GCC's beak more of a risk. I can't actually grasp it and more often than not it pisses my conure off more than need be. I went through a phase very similar to yours, Lauren, and it was a bout of typical conure hormones in my case. Avery was NOT touchable. I didn't really discuss it on the forum too much because I figured I could handle it with time (considering I was expecting it) after a few initial threads and it turned out just fine thank goodness.

It started off with extreme jealousy. I couldn't hug my boyfriend or talk to him in the vicinity of Avery. She would displacement bite me on the face, the ear, the hands, anything she could latch on to. While she's a nibbler and she's prone to being beaky, she's never been much of a chomper... but hormones changed that. I couldn't open the cage door without being nailed, I couldn't have her step up on me, and she most certainly was not allowed on the shoulder (didn't have to clip because she's not a confident flyer). It was a few months of not being able to interact with her due to fear of being torn into. I was terrified to kiss her like I used to because when I tried, she'd latch onto my lip or cheek and I'd have to towel her in order to calm her down and place her away from me (in the cage, on a play stand, etc). When I did take her out, it was literally me opening the door as fast as I could and running because she would crawl out like a bat out of hell and give me aggressive displays [emoji33]. I couldn't even be near her if she was on the back of the couch, because if I rested my head against the back she would charge towards my face.

So what did I do? I honestly just let her be. I stopped trying to physically interact with her. I would target train her, I would talk to her, I would sit down with her on the ground in a different room to help dissolve some of the territoriality that seemed to come with the hormones. I think it was about three months of not even being able to touch her before she finally calmed down again. One day she was just fine - the hormones seemed to calm down and I nearly cried when I had my cuddle bug back.

I look at it with rose coloured glasses for the most part because I wasn't actually bit that often because I essentially tried to prevent it in the first place. I knew that touching her would result in me bleeding, so I just didn't touch her. Talking to her was fine, target training her was fine (the treat would go into her treat bowl), just being in the same room was fine. Our bond is perfectly fine despite a few months of not even being physically close. We tend to project our physical desire for closeness onto birds without thinking of the birds and what reactions they'll give. We just assume they want to snuggle us as much as we do them.

I don't think that you're too emotionally unstable for a bird, or that you care too much. I think you just need to take some time to calm down, reflect for a bit, and try to detach your emotions from each biting scenario that happens. Some of the best advice I ever received was to never take a bite personally. If a bird hated you, you'd know and you wouldn't need a few bites to make you aware.

You've received a lot of excellent advice. My only advice is to not give up and to stop relying on physical interaction with your bird to establish a bond for the time being. If she flies to your shoulder simply to attack you, maybe it's time to give her a light enough clip where she can't fly with ease but still has enough feather to land safely. It's temporary, it can help prevent her from getting to your shoulder to attack you, and if you leave and she's out it won't be as easy for her to seek you out and inflict temperamental damage. The clip isn't to "put her in her place" or to force her to listen to you, it's for your own personal safety.

I really hope you're able to figure things out. Tiki obviously loves you, she just seems to be having difficulty figuring out how to appropriately express her love.

Great advice