Can I trust my breeder?

[olivierr1]

Hi there! This is my first post on the forum so forgive my noobie-ness.

I've been looking around for an Indian Ringneck for some time now, I have now found someone who buys them from a breeder friend and re-sells them.
She calls herself a bird trader.
The birds look very healthy, they're unclipped and have an appropriate veggie/fruit/seed diet. (No pellets yet).
She claims they are all 3 months old but have no rings around their feet to confirm this.
She also stated the genders are unknown and therefore she is assuming they are male... That's a little BS if you ask me...
I don't mind which gender they are, I do want to make sure she's being truthful about the age.

They have about a 50-50 black to-red ratio in their beaks and all have a light green ring with slightly darker feathers on their head than the body.

Is there any way to identify the age or gender by pictures? (hopefully I uploaded it right).

Thank you in advance,

Olivier.

 

[noodles123]

Birds can carry and transmit deadly diseases asymptomatically for years/lifetimes and these can be spread through air ducts, carpets, clothing, hair, dishes etc. If you buy a bird from a breeder or a friend, you cannot assume they are healthy without specific panel testing...there are some things that require SPECIFIC disease panels and cannot even be detected in a CBC, so you can't really ever just tell by looking. You can usually tell if a bird is near death/SUPER sick (there are red flags), but you can't always assume a bird is healthy because of their looks/behaviors...because 1. They hide illness, but 2. because they can be vectors of transmission without ever getting sick themselves (or, years later)

That having been said, most of us have taken a risk before and purchased either a re-homed or bred bird---testing after the fact ourselves .

Even the best breeder will not test your bird for all of the diseases for which it should be tested, as this would cost $1000 per bird...It is always a risk-- to test for all diseases before a sale is very expensive and never happens-- a reputable breeder will likely do a few swab tests and rarely, blood (which is very important for an owner to do). Now, they absolutely should test for certain things if they are reputable...such as psittacosis/chlamydia (among others)--but do not assume that a bird has a clean bill of health just because you get it from a breeder and it looks good.

I will say, the phrase "bird trader" causes the hairs on my arms to stand up. These animals are not property...to be traded...they are on par with apes in terms of intelligence...

 

[olivierr1]

Thank you for the quick response!

I do understand this, do you think they're more susceptible to diseases because they have moved location?
The person does mainly sell birds and has sold a lot of them in the past.
Maybe I will just ask her for the breeder's details and get one straight from them?
Also, the orange ring around their eyes is very bright, is this any indication of age?
I've seen people say they dont turn orange until adulthood?

 

[noodles123]

Anytime anyone has a lot of birds together, there is the risk for disease. You will need to follow-up on testing and quarantine this bird in a separate room (if you have any other birds in the house). That applies even when you get a bird from a perfect breeder. The word "trader" is super sketchy, but even a breeder can be sketchy...you have to really do your research ahead of time.

Have you had parrots before?

IRNs are not my specialty, but a good friend of mine has one and many members also have them.

 

[olivierr1]

I will make sure to visit an Avian vet within the first week or so of getting the bird to make sure it's healthy, and DNA test it as well to verify it's gender.

I have had a few birds in the past, all around the cockatiel size. I've done a few months of research on IRN's to make sure I'm fully prepared for homing one.
I already have a big cage set-up and got food for the diet they're currently on to make sure there's a smooth transition and minimize complications.

I live in London and some breeders seem very sketchy around here..
The reason I wanted to go with this one is that no else was prepared to give me any information at all, this person has answered every question I fired. (Alot of them).
I am just cautious of the age of the bird, I just don't know how to identify it

 

[noodles123]

It's often a bit sketchy-- in my opinion (breeding is sketchy to me in many cases, but not all--that is a personal opinion and I do know some good, really picky breeders, but they aren't as common). It's possible that the person you are speaking with is legit---I just don't like "trading" birds anymore than I like "trading" children.

Make sure your bird is FULLY WEANED---SO IMPORTANT!!!
make sure you get testing results in writing (those conducted before you purchase and those you fund yourself after).

Make sure you get as much as you can in writing (without being a total jerk lol)

 

[olivierr1]

The term trader is indeed a bit odd... As far as I know she only has them for a few days before they're already sold.
She said she collected from her breeder and within 3 days they're pretty much gone. I don't exactly know what to make of that.

Besides that they are not handfed, they are parent fed, and are on their own sustainable diet now, (I'm guessing that means they are finished weaning?)
As far as I'm aware they haven't tested anything either, I don't think that's that common in London, they sell like cupcakes and don't receive the treatment they deserve, unfortunately.

Any tips on the age however? I have more pictures if it helps

 

[noodles123]

The fact that they are eating on their own is good. That is what you want-- never get an unweaned or partially weaned bird.

No expert on IRNs but I can Google for you! lol I just can't speak about their age off the cuff, as it is not where I have most experience. With birds in general, it is not uncommon for eye rings, eyes, or ceres to change color as they age, but that doesn't apply to all species and is definitely a generality--again, don't know a TON about ring-necks from personal experience.

I bet some IRN owners will chime in soon.

I would say AT LEAST 6 months judging by the orange ring around the eyes- but again, no expert. The internet seems to think that, on average, they get a ring on their necks around 17 months (just repeating what I read--no experience in that department personally)
The eyes do look dark still, which (from what I've read) is associated with younger birds---then again, it's hard to say from that distance- and again, not my specialty...the fact that there are rings on their necks would be my starting point for further research if I were you...From what I have read, there are even certain varieties in which the ring never fully appears-- that having been said, it seems common for this to happen around a year- 1.5 years of age....RESEARCH ONLY--take it with a grain of salt.

 

[olivierr1]

That's exactly what I thought!

I believe ringnecks can get a light ring around their neck at a pretty young age, like 3 months, the darker ring however develops way later if they are male.
Its the slightly darker feathers above the ring that confuse me (lack of sunlight?)
I have also never seen a ringneck with such bright orange eyes, you're right on they darkness thing, they are pretty beady.

Just questioning the seller a bit more, she seems to know a lot.

Thanks for all your help btw, its been a pleasure

 

[noodles123]

Like I said--- I am not an expert-- you are always welcome to question the seller (obviously-- I would--no matter what), but DO see what others say. My bird is a cockatoo, so she is quite different from an IRN. I haven't ever personally owned an IRN (as I said before) and I don't know a ton about them- although I have hung out with them...lol.

Just don't assume I am right (because I could be wrong)

 

[olivierr1]

I don't think I'll be able to ever get the answer unfortunately.
She just confirmed the birds were born in February, just gonna have to her word for it!

Another question, I don't own a car so I'll be taking a train/London underground.
The trip is only about 1,5 hours, is this okay for the bird?
I have a decent travel cage and will probably throw a blanket over it if that makes it less anxious?

 

[noodles123]

It's going to be stressful for the bird either way. Try to jostle him/her around as little as you can and yes-- I would cover during the trip (just because I think that it would be overwhelming to see all of the movement and people when your bird doesn't know you yet---rarely, would I say to cover during travel, but I would (personally) in this instance..)

1. Can you get it to a vet near you in the future using the tube?

2. Can you time pick-ups to where it isn't exposed to extreme temperatures in the winter? I get cold there and I can regulate my temperature better than a bird. In an emergency- could you call a cab?

 

[olivierr1]

I can definitely get to an avian vet by tube, I've found a few that I might visit in the first week. (is that a good time for a vet visit?)

Also, I'll be getting the bird in 2 weeks so no need for cold temps, the tubes, however, are very hot and sweaty, I'm trying my best to find a route using just normal trains or tubes that go overground to minimize heat.

 

[noodles123]

I'm trying to think of long-term situations. Hot can be too hot, and cold can be too cold. You will have this bird (in theory) for 14 (ish) years, if not more...so make sure you can get where you need to go without stressing it out (in the event of illness).

 

[olivierr1]

Ohh yes, I misunderstood.
I can always get a cab or I have friends that could potentially drive me. (when COVID-19 is gone lol).

I'll make sure to regulate the temperature!

 

[Jottlebot]

There is a member here who I'm sure will be along shortly and has so much experience with IRNs they'll probably be able to tell you age, personality, favourite food and shoe size after looking at your photo! Might be worth putting the others on if you have further questions about age and condition.

I'm in the UK too and it seems very strange to me that they don't have rings. Looks to me like they're scared in the photo too as they've moved away from the person taking the photo. They don't look used to people to me. Are they meant to be? They look in lovely condition though, which also doesn't suggest babies because they tend to be clumsy and mess up their lovely tails. Do all the photos seem to be the same birds?

I'm not clear if you're saying you're having one of these birds or whether the seller is saying they've all gone already? If this encouraged you to buy could it have been a tactic to put you under pressure?

There is something I just don't like about this I'm afraid. I hope you haven't given a deposit or anything yet...?

She will openly tell you she's a "trader", but the birds are from a "friend". It seems like a convenient way to say she doesn't know any details because they aren't her birds, but also she can answer lots of questions with authority because she knows the breeder... I just don't like it.

 

[olivierr1]

Hi there thanks for responding!

They do seem very afraid in every picture I have of them, which I will attach.
Since they're not handfed but parent fed maybe they haven't seen hands before? Or maybe they're scared of the phone? I don't really know.

I think she had more than 3 before I spoke to her, she said she picked up some new birds from that breeder yesterday or the day before and might be sold out when I got there but that she would have more the day after I originally was going to visit. (If that even makes sense). Since then she said she would make sure to keep one ready for me.

I will visit the birds first before making any decision, it just seems very hard to find a good breeder in my area. Besides the 'trader' thing she has been the only one that actually bothered to speak to me like a normal person! Is that normal in breeders?

I've also not seen many advertisements with birds who have rings?
I assumed they sell so fast they don't bother to ring them, maybe they just don't care for them I don't know..

I just want a happy healthy birb!

 

[Noahs_Birds]

The person sounds fair to me
I deal with people like this all the time, in fact I'm a big breeder myself
If you can't tell there sex with IRN at this point of time....its obvious that they must be young as they are, once reaching maturity, sexually dimorphic

Most of the time, its not the breeders duty to ring the young and you shouldn't hold anything against them or not doing so, birds are only rung if: They are being sexed, the are breeders or they are particular birds they want to identify

As long as the price is right and they have been well cared for.....I don't see a problem

 

[olivierr1]

Thanks so much!

I've agreed on a pick-up date and will be picking the bird up on the 3rd of june!

Since this is my first 'bigger' bird I just wanted to make sure I did everything right.

Thanks for all the help to everyone that commented. I shall post a picture once he/she gets here!

One last thing, what companies are recommended for DNA testing in the UK?

 

[Littleredbeak]

This video is abouthow to identify the age of a irn

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w9vKhp3tf2k