Budgie - cough and dry retching?

[SparkleSparrow]

Hi

My budgie Biscuit has developed a slight cough and occasionally looks like he's going to throw up. He's coming up to 8 years old, and this is the first time he's been ill. It started when my little un Toffee relapsed from a vomiting illness and passed away. This was 25th Feb.

Biscuit had a big vomiting fit that morning at 5am, vomited a few times throughout the morning and by afternoon was sitting still with his eyes closed and wings open, all day. His vents were irritated and he kept scratching them and he also went off his food. Toffee was showing the same vent irritation that day too.

Toffee then passed away that evening. I got an emergency appointment for Biscuit the next morning but by then he seemed back to normal.

Since then he's been okay except he does seem to be coughing more than usual. it's not big coughing fits like Toffee had, but he does cough more than usual and sometimes looks like he's about to vomit, but nothing comes out. It looks more like a small regurgitation movement rather than the violent vomiting movement, but his face looks more distressed. Toffee had been bringing up seeds without the head movement as well. Also his relapse and Biscuit's vomiting coincided with giving them Avipro Avian which has sugar, and that led me to suspect yeast could be a factor, but the vet had never heard of yeast infections so I can't be sure either way.

I wrote about it in Toffee's thread
http://www.parrotforums.com/budgies-parakeets/73415-male-cere-female-pelvis-2.html

His appetite and energy are back to normal, but I noticed that when he flew more laps than he usually does, he made the coughing noise. His droppings appear to be normal again too. Also he does seem to miss Toffee a lot, despite not getting on with him. He seems to miss him more than he did his seven year old brother who passed in November.

I've lost faith in my so called avian vet and will probably take him to the animal hospital instead, but any ideas what the culprits could be? I just want to make sure he is tested for all the possibilities rather than just going straight onto baytril, which didn't help poor Toffee at all. If Biscuit has a yeast infection then antibiotics will only make him worse. I'm currently giving him thyme to nibble on to help boost his immune system. I've seen cinnamon listed as safe for budgies but no info on dosage. I know it's anti fungal so I'd like to know how I should feed it to him.

Thanks for any help.

 

[SailBoat]

Are you certain that your Vet is an Avian Vet (Educated in Avian Care) or includes Avians as part of the clinic's clients. That is a very important difference.

What you are saying, sounds like a possible infection of the Crop or that the mass in the crop has become stuck or hardened.

The coughing noise adds a bit of confusion as it 'could' be an indicator of an infection of the Air Sacks 'or' and affect of the Crop limiting air movement.

All and all, several steps above my knowledge base!

A visual inspection of the Crop and testing for a Crop infection would be a starting point for me.

I hope that this helps.

 

[SparkleSparrow]

I've not been able to find anything about certified avian vets in the UK, I think that might be a thing in the States? I think here you'd qualify as a vet then just specialise through practice? My vet's bio says

...he was the veterinary surgeon for [censored] Zoo and was also consultant to a large parrot breeding aviary. He has a special interest in avian medicine.

My animal hospital actually recommended that practice instead when I asked if they had bird specialists. I don't know though, I don't think I can trust someone who's never heard of yeast infections.

When I took Biscuit in, the vet did feel around the crop area and he used the blunt thing to pump some water into him, but he wasn't able to get him to bring anything up. He said it sounded unlikely to be a crop infection, because if it was, he should have been able to get him to throw up (he was able to with Toffee).

He checked for obstructions and parasites, but doesn't know the first thing about fungal or yeast infections in birds. He said so himself that I know more about it than he does. And my knowledge was from 15 minutes of reading a link about AGY my sister sent the night before!

He wanted to put him on antibiotics, but since that didn't work for Toffee, and because he didn't test for yeast so I couldn't rule that out, i said I'd rather wait and see for now.

I don't know if this is relevant but Biscuit has developed a higher pitched shriek. He seemed to start the time I picked up Toffee, and he (Toffee) shrieked, and that shriek was a higher pitch than Biscuit's. I don't know if Biscuit is mimicking Toffee's shriek or if it's a symptom of something else. He still does his normal pitched shriek too.

 

[Scott]

It would be of great help for Biscuit to be seen by an avian specialist vet, one who has the proper tools and procedures to better diagnose the issue.

From what I've read, the term "avian vet" has no legal basis in the U.K, however there are certainly vets superbly trained and qualified to assist Biscuit. The issue is determining the precise term and finding a trusted practitioner. We have many long-term members living in the U.K, hopefully they can give better advice.

Might this be of assistance?
Avian Vets | Parrot Veterinary Services

 

[Aquila]

Testing for bacteria or yeast should be pretty routine, the easiest is a crop swab. I believe it's performed similarly to a gram stain, just a sample taken from the crop and put on a slide. You'd be able to see spores if it's a yeast infection.

It couldn't hurt to look at anything environmental either, even your ventilation system at home.

 

[SparkleSparrow]

@scott, the vet i went to is ón the link you sent. My animal Hospital is listed on there too but when I emailed to confirm the vet named on there is an avian specialist they said that info is incorrect and they'll ask them to remove it. That was back when Toffee was still alive.

The CJ Hall place is meant to be really good but it's way too far and I can't drive.

@aquila the airflow is pretty bad since the weather is terrible, and the paint smell is still there, it's hard to aerate my room, but I try to in the fleeting moments we get any sun. His cough/sneeze seems to have reduced somewhat.

One more thing, Biscuit has been sitting on me a lot now he's alone. The other day he was picking at his feet and there were dry flakes on my clothes. Anyway today I just noticed the floor of his cage is covered with flakes. Could this be dry skin or early sign of mites? I try to keep the humidity between 40 and 60% but what with the weather and heating it occasionally goes down to 37.

I might email the hospital. So I should ask if they can do a gram stain? It wouldn't be AGY, would it? I checked Toffee's droppings after he passed and I didn't see my signs of undigested seed. Poor Toffee. I miss the little fluff ball

 

[SparkleSparrow]

Just got back from the vet. I did email my old vet and even gave him links with instructions on how to detect AGY and he replied with "this is too hard for me".

So i eventually got an appointment at the barrier clinic. This new vet looked at toffee's records and immediately suggested megabac. She said it's highly likely biscuit has it too. I'm waiting for the results to come back, but she's prescribed baytril, and daktarin 2%gel, which she'd run out of but she said i can get it from any pharmacy. I did but the ingredients look worrying:
Ingredients
Active ingredient: Miconazole.

Also contains: Pregelatinised Potato Starch, Ethanol, Polysorbate 20 (E432), Sodium Saccharin, Cocoa flavour, Orange flavour, Glycerol and Water.

Is cocoa flavour actually made from cocoa? Should i try to find a vet who stocks it or is this safe for budgies? Because it's the bank holiday i dont know if any will be open until Tuesday.

Also the vet took one look at Toffee's photo and said male. So my last vet got that wrong too

 

[Scott]

I'm so glad you have a new vet. Hopefully this one has a deeper set of skills!

The cocoa flavour is most likely not an issue. As I understand, Daktarin is a topical gel? The cocoa extract is likely so minute as to not become a problem even if a bit is ingested. Some flavours are chemically constructed, so there is no actual cocoa. Best bet is to begin and continue the Baytril, and ask the vet on Tuesday?

 

[EllenD]

I'm going to chime-in here, so was a crop swab done, and if so, what did the test come back showing, a bacterial infection or a yeast infection? The micozanole is a medication for treating yeast infections, however the Baytril is obviously an antibiotic for treating bacterial infections.

The reason i'm chiming in here is because you've got a potential serious issue because if you give him Baytril for a bacterial infection but he has a yeast infection, the antibiotic will actually make the yeast infection much, much worse, as it will kill-off all of the healthy bacteria in his crop and throughout his GI tract that keeps yeast at bay...this is a big no-no...

It's extremely likely that your bird has the same thing that killed your other bird, but the coughing can also be a sign of an upper respiratory infection, very common in birds, which would require an addition swab of his nostrils and the back of his throat, in addition to the crop swab...they may also want to do a fecal to test for yeast, as usually when you have a yeast infection in the crop, it's actually all throughout the GI tract.

I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU PUT YOUR BIRD ON A DAILY PROBIOTIC AS WELL. This will help to not only treat the yeast infection if he has one, but it will replenish the healthy bacteria throughout his GI tract and keep yeast infections at-bay from now on. You can use a human-grade probiotic and add it to his pellets/seeds daily...all of my guys get a probiotic which contains not only acidophilus, the most common probiotic, but also a mix of many different strains, and they all get it on their food daily. I've never once had a yeast infection in 30 years of owning birds..

Either way, your bird simply needs a vet, any vet, whether avian or not, to take #1) a crop culture/swab to confirm or rule out a yeast infection, #2) an upper respiratory culture/swab of the nares/nostrils and the back of his throat to rule out an upper respiratory infection (and potentially will show yeast as well on the back of his throat, or a thrush infection) due to the coughing, no matter how bad it is or what it sounds like, as NO COUGH IN A BIRD IS NORMAL AND NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, and #3) i would also ask for a fecal to check for budding yeast, as this will not only confirm a GI yeast infection, it will also tell you how progressed it is...

The biggest deal here is that you get cultures done ASAP, as vets who simply put birds on antibiotics, antifungals, etc. without diagnosing the specific microbe causing the problem, or even diagnosing whether or not there is an infection, kill birds by prescribing the wrong meds and letting them go on and on and on, and in the case of upper respiratory infections, birds can't handle that...And because you've already had one bird die of a microbial infection within a recent amount of time, chances are that it's also effecting every bird in the same house, and if this bird has a weakened immune system from a prolonged infection, it's likely that he's also developed multiple other infections...

The coughing concerns me the most, more than anything else, and giving him Baytril, the go-to broad-spectrum antibiotic they give for everything, when he may also have a bad yeast infection, well, this is not good. If he happens to have both a yeast infection in his crop/GI tract AND an upper respiratory infection caused by a specific bacteria, then the way that should be handled is by giving the bird the antifungal medication (the micozanole is a good choice by the way) along with a daily dose of probiotics orally, and then giving the bird an antibiotic that will be effective against the specific bacteria causing the cough/infection BY DOING DAILY NEBULIZER TREATMENTS WITH SAID ANTIBIOTIC, NOT ALSO GIVING AN ORAL DOSE OF THE ANTIBIOTIC, AS THE 2 MEDS CONFLICT...PLUS, GIVING BOTH BIRDS AND REPTILES ANTIBIOTICS BY NEBULIZER TREATMENTS WORKS VERY QUICKLY, EFFECTIVELY, CAUSES LITTLE ISSUE, GETS THE MEDS RIGHT INTO THE LUNG TISSUE, ETC.

Something to remember is that orally given Baytril for an upper respiratory infection is not the way to go, as it has very poor saturation into the respiratory tract...The drug of choice for most upper respiratory infections in birds given by NEBULIZER, ONCE A DAY IN A STERILE WATER OR STERILE SALINE SOLUTION, is Tylosin, or Tylan 50....

 

[SparkleSparrow]

The vet took 3 faecal samples but they were all from that day. I did ask about needing samples over the course of a few days but she just said "cytology". I'm not sure what she meant. No crop sample. My last vet did try but wasn't able to get anything out of him (it would have only been to check for parasites anyway as my last vet didn't really know what yeast is). They don't have an in-house lab so we have to wait for the results. I did ask the animal hospital, but they told me to go back to the vet who pretends to be an avian specialist, who then replied with "this too hard" . That's why I went to the barrier clinic this time.

I wish I'd thought of human grade probiotics for Toffee. I believe the avipro finished him off is something like this okay?

Product Description
90 VCaps of Lactobacillus Acidophilus probiotic bacteria in a gelatin free capsule, to support the immune system and improve digestive health and nutrient absorption. Free from sugar, lactose, yeast, gluten and wheat.

Pro-biotics are also known as intestinal flora or beneficial bacteria. Some are 'resident' - meaning they live in the digestive system - while others 'pass through' - but they have a vital role to play as they move through the digestive tract. Pro-biotics have many functions including helping to make some B vitamins, supporting the immune system, digesting food and promoting the proper health of the digestive system.

Ingredients
Active ingredients per capsule: Acidophilus Bacteria Mixture 40mg, which provides: Lactobacillus Acidophilus 40 million

Or this one?

Sorry I don't know if I'm allowed to post links. How much would I give him per day? Should I give it after the baytril or start while he's still on it?

I was really worried about the baytril making a yeast infection worse that's why I refused when my last vet wanted to prescribe it. This time I was going to delay it until I checked with the vet that the medicine I got was the right one but he was coughing so much I started him on it. He seems to have stopped the squeaky noise when he bends or flies, I'm going to stay with him most of the day to monitor.

I've started Biscuit on weak thyme tea and I'm going to give him a drop or two of colloidal silver in his water as soon as it arrives. The vet should be calling me today about the daktarin.

 

[LordTriggs]

when it comes to treatment only do what your new vet says to do otherwise you could make things worse. Everything I've heard about Barrier vets has been good so you're in some good hands now. They're one of the only Avian vets in London so it's good you've found them whilst you can still help your little guy

 

[EllenD]

I would definitely start the probiotics, they will not hurt anything and can only help. i never recommend giving prescription meds without proper diagnostic testing, but probiotics will be the only thing that keeps the yeast at bay IF he has a yeast infection, as the Baytril will surely kill-off all the healthy bacteria he has left and the yeast will get much worse if it exists. Probiotics are completely safe, do no harm, and are an excellent supplement to give daily even when not ill, so yes, please start him on them until you hear back from the vet on the cultures. I don't like giving him the baytril without knowing whether he needs it or not, i understand why you did it, but i would stop it because like i said, if he has a fungal infection the baytril could really cause him harm...

For the coughing you need to keep him warmer than usual, the best way is with a heating pad either on the floor of his cage, or better yet attached to the side of his cage by where he sleeps. Using a humidifier can also help.

Be sure to ask the vet about nebulizer antibiotic treatments as opposed to oral or infection antibiotics IF he does have a URI.

As for the probiotics, if this is a pill, crush one tablet into a very fine powder and sprinkle it on his food, one cap per day. i don't know what you feed him, it's much easier with pellets because they eat the entire pellet, with seeds they shell them so you lose a bit of the probiotics that way. I feed pellets, and every morning I sprinkle a parrot-specific probiotic powder i buy at Petco on each of their pellets, no problems at all. So you can do the same with that tablet you have, it's exactly the same probiotic strains as any other avian specific probiotic powder, in fact it's exactly the same as the one i use as far as the strains. If you get to a Petco they sell a bottle of parrot probiotic powder, it's already powder but is exactly the same as what you have.

Also, if you are still giving him the baytril, which i would not but that's up to you, do not give him the probiotic until 2 hours after he gets the dose of baytril, that way the probiotic will not interfere with the antibiotic.

 

[SparkleSparrow]

I ordered some potent brew yesterday and it should be arriving tomorrow. The vet called finally and said I got the right daktarin so I've started him on that. My mum has some acidophilus capsules but it doesn't say what the filler is, just that it has "minimal" fillers. It's the one whose description I quoted above.

I'm starting to lose his trust somewhat as he really hates the syringe

I really didn't want to put him on baytril either but since I've started and the course ends on Friday I'd rather just get it over with rather than the vet putting him back on it again. I'm hoping that now he's starting the daktarin and thyme tea it should at least help control any yeasts to some extent.

Toffee was on a 10 day course for baytril and the vomiting stopped mostly. he only had the big relapse when I started the avipro. Biscuit got ill for the first time in his whole life after he drank the avipro. Toffee then passed away that evening.

There really needs to be a warning on that product. I left an amazon review warning people to be sure their bird doesn't have yeast before they use it, hopefully that will get people researching.

@lordtriggs I definitely feel more confident with the barrier vet than my last one (I'll control the rant this time, don't worry!). But one thing people should know, they don't have an in house lab, so any testing will push your fee into triple figures. That was a big shock I can tell you!).

I'm thinking it may have been better to go to CJs instead but as long as Biscuit can get accurately diagnosed this time I'll be happy and hugely relieved.

 

[EllenD]

What an awful situation, and you're correct, not many people understand and even know anything about the dangers of yeast/fungi or how fungal infections can develop and grow. I've not ever used Avipro, nor will I ever, but the fact that they have no warning on the label is irresponsible, however because it's a supplement and not a prescription, it's not monitored and they don't have to put anything on the label at all...uhg.

All acidophilus, as well as any and all supplements are going to have "fillers", that's not something i'd worry about, he needs something daily to control any and all fungi from getting worse...As you said, what's most important here is that WHATEVER VET you go to, they take cultures and actually diagnose exactly what type of infection he has, and exactly what microbe, whether bacterial, fungi, etc. is causing the infection, as well as what prescription medication will be effective against that specific microbe...

Baytril (Enrofloaxcin) is a broad-spectrum antibiotic, but it's not effective against any and all bacteria, not even close, and unfortunately it is not very bioavailable for Upper Respiratory Infections orally at all, nor by injection, and not very good for them by Nebulizer either...most avian and reptile vets prescribe Baytril like it's going out of style for absolutely everything, and then when the first round doesn't work, a lot of them even prescribe a second round of it and still do no cultures. It's terrible.

Whether for this situation or future respiratory infections, please keep in the back of your mind the fact that oral antibiotics and injectable antibiotics, in-general, regardless of what they are, are not the way to go to treat NEITHER UPPER RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS, LUNG INFECTIONS, NOR PNEUMONIA IN EITHER BIRDS OR REPTILES...The way that most all Certified Avian and Certified Reptile Vets are now treating ANY AND ALL respiratory bacterial and fungal infections is with NEBULIZER TREATMENTS, IT ONLY TAKES ONCE DAILY FOR 10-15 MINUTES FOR 5-7 DAYS, WITH THE BIRD IMPROVING 100% IN LESS THAN 24 HOURS (as well as fungal infections, as birds often suffer from Aspergillus in their upper respiratory systems, as well as infections caused by BOTH bacteria and fungi, which is yet again another reason that cultures should be done before any meds are prescribed)...The Nebulized antibiotics or antifungals get into every piece of tissue throughout the upper AND lower respiratory tract with every breath the bird takes, and I can tell you from my experience with my Quaker that after a single Nebulizer treatment with Tylan 50 he was totally fine. I did the entire 5 days of Nebulizer treatments to ensure the infection was gone of course, but he went from being fluffed up, coughing constantly, sneezing, having mucous running out of his nose, not eating, etc. to acting perfectly normal about 12 hours after the first 15 minute Nebulizer treament with Tylosin. And in addition, meds that are given by Nebulizer do not cause nausea or vomiting, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THEY DO NOT KILL OFF THE HEALTHY, NORMAL BACTERIA THROUGHOUT THE GI TRACT, SO YOU ARE GUARANTEED TO NOT HAVE A SECONDARY FUNGAL INFECTION DEVELOP!

The best part is you can do Nebulizer treatments for free, at home. i bought a $25 Vicks brand human vaporizer at Walmart, it has a plastic mask that you are supposed to put your face into, which is removable. So I removed the mask, bought a medium sized plastic tub at Walmart for $7, mixed the prescription Tylan 50 dose with 15ml of sterile/distilled water, poured the mixture into the vaporizer, placed the vaporizer into the plastic tub, put Lita in the plastic box, turned on the vaporizer, and then put the lid on the plastic tub lightly, not sealing it, so that i could see the vapor slowly coming out of the box. The medication would be done in about 10-15 minutes when the vapor would stop coming out of the vaporizer, and then she was done. She didn't like it, lol, it made her feathers damp, but she tolerated it a lot easier than she does oral meds and the syringe, as you mentioned. I remember how amazed i was, as I did the first nebulizer treatment at around 3:00 in the afternoon, and by 6:00 the next morning when i got up for work she was perfectly normal, eating her entire breakfast, flying around the house, and playing with her toys in her cage. And just the day before she was sitting still, all fluffed up, not eating, and constantly coughing and wheezing...

 

[SparkleSparrow]

The vet just phoned. She said no yeasts or AGY were detected, but the fact is she only took one day's samples, so I can't say I'm satisfied that he doesn't carry it and will continue to treat him as though he carries it. She said they detected various bacteria. I asked her to email me a copy of the results, so when I get that I'll post it here.

His symptoms haven't improved really. I thought the dry retching was improving, but he had it twice last night (it only happens at night, any thoughts on that?). The cough seems to be getting worse, it sounds like an actual sick cough, rather than the more frequent single cough it used to be.

Biscuit is still playful and energetic, and eating well, but the fat lump on his tummy is obvious to me now. Both vets noticed it but neither actually said what it could mean.

Also the vet didn't remember when I told her Biscuit is making the squeaky noise when he flies more than one lap and when he bends down to groom, and when using the seed dish. I do remember him doing it and telling her as hearing that reminded me, guess she wasn't paying attention.

She wants me to go for another check but honestly I can't afford to keep paying triple figures and the drive is just too much. I might try the Wanstead hospital again once I get the results otherwise I've been psyching myself up to accept that I might be losing him.

In terms of nebuliser treatments, do you think F10 would be any use? I know it can be used in this way, but before I invest in a nebuliser I'd like to know if it's worth it.

I'm having trouble getting the potent brew into him but Charlotte at the Bird Care Co has sent me tons of free samples of their egg food so I might try mixing it with that and seeing if I can get him to try some.

Thanks ellen for your detailed advice. The problem is finding a vet who will get the correct treatment without charging me a fortune or sending me round and round in circles. This whole thing has really put me off getting any more birds.

 

[SparkleSparrow]

So apparently Goddard group has an exotic specialist at their Ilford branch. I wish they'd told me from the beginning.

I want to underlying that I am not a certificated specialist, I have long term experience and a particular interest in exotic pets.


For what you wrote me the situation seems quite severe. What I would suggest is a culture and sensitivity on a crop sample, a check of the pH on Crop , and if any diarrhoea is present I would recommended a test for chlamydia.

Seen the long treatment the bird had I would recommended to start with some probiotic ( Benebac gel - is a good one)


The cost here for a consultation and the last test would be around 150 £.

The treatment is depending from the finding, but I would say could be around 50-70£



Unfortunately is difficult do a proper evaluation of the case without seen the bird .

You are welcome to book an appointment with if you wish.

She seems to know what she's talking about, @ellend anything else you would suggest I ask about? I only gave her a brief of history of the case. Biscuit seemed pretty ill yesterday, I don't know if the eucalyptus might have had an adverse effect on him. He's more chirpy today.