Birdtricks

[Rana]

Hi guys, first off-my apologies if this question has been asked before, but there are A LOT of threads on this forum also wasn't realy sure what topic to post it under but sure anywayz...

Does anyone here have experience with birdtricks products? I can only find very conflicting reviews about them, ranging from over the moon excited people to biggest scam on the internet... Was thinking of getting the dvd's off them but id like to find out more about them from some genuine experiences.

 

[MollyGreenCheeks]

Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community - Search Results

Check the above link. That is every thread that has the "birdtricks" name it it. Enjoy the read.

My personal experience is they are great people who love their birds. If you're looking at getting one of their training vids, they are very expensive and it is likely the same info you can find online.

Some people will say they are only in it for the money and are using improper methods of training but no one has shown me in writing where there are doing anything wrong. Do your reading and make your own judgment call.

 

[triordan]

ask 10 people and you will probably get 10 different responses~ I like to read and watch everything, then I can take and use the parts I want to, I recently got one of their videos and liked it very much~ the only problem is you get tons of emails from them, some helpful, others not

 

[MonicaMc]

I've never bought any of their DVD's, but I do have some experience.

• Flooding - Much of their old DVD's used to rely on flooding techniques, that is, you force your bird to endure something that they do not like until they accept it. Flooding may lead to worse behaviors, not better. They are supposedly training via Positive Reinforcement now, however I can't verify this, nor whether or not they are still using the flooding techniques.
• E-mail - If you got on their e-mail list, you would get flooded with "spam" telling you to buy this, or to buy that and telling you about all these great training techniques. Very annoying.
• Marketing - They used to have a video of them "barreling over cliffs" and "swimming with sharks". Sounded real scary and daring! Watch the video? They were in a helicopter flying over cliffs over the ocean. Sharks? Black tipped reef sharks. Danger to humans? Extremely low. Probably about as dangerous as nurse sharks are to humans. Not impressed.
• Website - On their website, they had/have these testimonials all over the site of how great their training is. Sometimes, if you compared the testimonials, they read the EXACT SAME!!! The differences? The species of the bird and the photo provided by the supposed person who sent in the testimonial. Everything else pretty much read the same, including the birds name.

I have heard that well respected trainers scoff at the Womach Brothers. I'm sure they (Womach brothers) love their birds! I don't doubt that! And I don't doubt that they want to help enrich the lives of pet parrots! But I simply cannot agree with the things that I've seen.


From Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training

Flooding: A process of teaching an animal to cope with a situation it fears. The process is generally traumatic and relentless. The animal learns nothing it does will change the outcome and learns to submit or tolerate the situation. Not recommended!

Example of flooding:
Everyday a Quaker parrot is required to be moved from one location to another. The bird does not step up voluntarily. It is decided the bird must be moved and the bird is chased with a towel until the parrot is captured. This is repeated two times daily to move the bird inside and outside. Eventually the bird stops running away from the towel and freezes when it sees the towel. This allows the bird to be captured easily.​

Learned Helplessness: The result of flooding procedures. Parrots learn nothing they do can influence the outcome and give up. Not recommended!

Don’t Fall for Deceptive Bird Training Tricks – Guest Post by Sid Price of Avian Ambassadors « Best in Flock – Parrot Blog
The Real Secrets of Training Success and Where to Find Them « Bird Training Blog

Couple of Q&A's on flooding specifically
The depressed bird - ParrotChronicles Why Does My Bird Do That? Q&A
Teaching your parrot to "step up" - ParrotChronicles Why Does My Bird Do That? Q&A



When I recommend Barbara Heidenreich, Susan Friedman, Melinda Johnson and Karen Pryor, I really can't recommend them enough! And that's not to mention the other great trainers out there such as Steve Martin, Jim McKendry, Sid Price, etc!

 

[Rana]

Thank you so much Monica! very helpfull

 

[SpringCottageParrot]

I contacted Bird Tricks ONCE. Since then I have been bombarded by hundreds of annoying "in your face" spam with no Unsubscribe.
Whatever you do don't email them. These are very persistent and annoying people.

 

[MaraWentz]

They love to spam and thier positive reinforcement disappears when they're off camera so they pretty much torture the birds til they give in. Some things in thier videos seem a little helpful, but I wouldn't say much. You may want to contact Chris Brio for any trainng help. He teaches freeflight training, but he is a very wonderful advice willing to give you nay help you need nd he actually trained BirdTricks first bird- an african grey.

 

[MonicaMc]

I have not heard of them abusing their birds. The worse thing, besides stealing other trainers teaching techniques (as in, getting some training sessions, but not taking a course on it to really understand what they are doing) is food deprivation. That is, starving the birds so that they'll work for food.

The truth of the matter is, a bird who isn't hungry is less likely to work for treats than a bird that is. That doesn't mean you have to starve your bird, only work out a meal plan that will allow a time and place for food rewards to be used with your bird.


Speaking of Chris Biro.... another article that may be worth reading in regards to Birdtricks training... as well as another one I came across.
birdtricksters.com | LibertyWings.com
Is Chet Womach a Clicker Trainer? (Updated 6/08) | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


I probably should go out and buy all of Birdtricks *current* DVD's that they are selling, however I don't have that kind of money. If I did, I might have a different opinion of them, if things have changed since a few years ago. I say this, because they willingly admitted their mistake in their training courses - which goes back to who taught them originally.
Flooding - A Bad Parrot Training Technique
» Parrot training videos? (last comment)


All-in-all though, I would have to say it would be better to go with a well respected trainer. Maybe someday the Womach brothers can be included within this group!



Rana, I'm glad that the information was helpful! I don't like putting Birdtricks down, but if they are still using flooding techniques, or marketing flooding techniques, I just can't recommend them... and it's easy to get just as good advice and better from other trainers for less!

 

[Henryofmagic]

I use birdtricks all the time great customer service,great products never had a problem,I just ordered there new DVDs that just came out recently I own every training DVD they own from the taming training and tricks I use there monthly bird toys program before and I also use there bird food , I also used there monthly parrot subscription but had to stop do to monthly bills other then that I will still be using that program but there food and toys are a monthly thin for me I really recomed to anybody.

Henry

 

[Henryofmagic]

Just wanna clear something up they stress a lot not to starve your bird but you need to get him slightly hungry so he can accept treats like u if your full are u going to get more?no your gonna need space that's what they suggest u do,another the email back in the days where annoying but they stopped all the good info goes into there blog now birdtricks.com/blog they email every now and then but you can tell them to stop sending you emails and they will,I have seen Dave womach and his wife in person with there birds and the birds are more spoiled then a only child...they even got a great cook book out just for birds.im not sure about the stealing training techniques but let me put it like this There are only a few ways to train a bird,how else can u train a bird (do u clicker train,target train)? Does this mean your stealing the techniques???? Who invented the clicker trainer ? Does that mean everyone else stole from him or he have it to the public to use? Another thing we all make mistakes it just takes a few to admit it and they do if you want go check around eBay or amazon or even there website I believe there old DVDs aren't for sale anymore because of the mistakes made but you can get your hand on them if u wanna check it out I have a flight traning DVD from them that sells for about 50 bucks I believe I will sell it for 25 its brand new never been opened enjoy

 

[MonicaMc]

Henry, that sounds promising!

As far as stealing techniques.. well, they were shown how to do something, then sold it off as their own. It's not stealing if you learn how to do something and apply it to your own pets, but to take something that someone else taught you how to do, then sell it as your own is rather different.

Target training and clicker training can technically fall into the same category. Clicker training, when done properly, is a form of positive reinforcement. There is positive reinforcement training which is a part of applied behavior analysis and flooding as the two main training techniques. Clicker training is a part of positive reinforcement, although it is not required to use a click to identify a behavior.

Perhaps a better question may be, what are the Womach brothers credentials? Sometimes, credentials matter to people. Some of the positive reinforcement trainers may not have credentials (nothing that can be put on paper at least), but they will tell you where they learned the information that they know.

Would be interesting to compare all these trainers now, wouldn't it?

 

[izmail1215]

Here is my review: (9/10)- I ordered the tame train and tricks DVD the includes a clicker 2 audio CDs and 2 Ebooks. I forgot the price sorry! So I ordered it and waited 4 weeks but the product never showed up and the tracking number was an error. The next day I emailed them about the information regarding my order, and I got a reply back in 6 hours. They said there was a glitch and they will send it out again. Oddly enough the package arrived the next day and Then another one. So they sent it double. I called and to,d them I received 2 sets of the package,will it charge my credit-card?! They said no it was a glitch, I can keep the copy and gift it to another parrot owner! I really liked the customer service.

Now on to the DVD, they promised to stop biting, teach your parrot to step up and do tricks. Well, my bird can do tricks he stopped biting (less) but won't step up, they had rushed thru the step up process of the DVD. The first trick was teach your bird to shake his head no on command, which was pretty easy. And taming your bird is to teach it tricks. If you can't get your bird to step up I or put your hand 2 feet from his head the DVD will be useless.

Over all there products are simple, if you follow direction it will work if you don't it doesn't

Also these people really dedicate there life to parrots I have them on Facebook and I am familiar with some of there birds, they will often give you tips, pointers, recipes and information. Overall these are just some entrapuners which really love parrots and want to make only while doing so.

 

[Henryofmagic]

Do you still have that DVD ?ill trade you a flight train DVD from bird tricks?email me [email protected]

 

[Rana]

i have them on facebook as well, just entered a photo for their new competition even they seem nice enough alright and all their birds look healthy and happy. in regards to "stealing" training techniques... hey they are not trademarked so i don't see what they'd do wrong. it's just when you look at it online, the reviews are very black and white, some people love them some people loathe them... i just wanted to hear from people that had first hand experience with them you know? thanks for all the info!!

 

[IcyWolf]

I don't like the fact that they have countless numbers of employees all over the web acting like satisfied customers everytime someone says anything bad about them, I've seen it many times and if you don't believe me just read the comments on the one link that monica posted, there is an employee right there pretending to be a customer to "protect their name". I'm not saying they don't care for their birds as they really seem to, but looks can be deceiving and I have never personally met them. Also, Dave and Jamie both work for Ringling Brothers Circus and that in itself brings up issues with me...

 

[MollyGreenCheeks]

I don't like the fact that they have countless numbers of employees all over the web acting like satisfied customers everytime someone says anything bad about them, I've seen it many times and if you don't believe me just read the comments on the one link that monica posted, there is an employee right there pretending to be a customer to "protect their name". I'm not saying they don't care for their birds as they really seem to, but looks can be deceiving and I have never personally met them. Also, Dave and Jamie both work for Ringling Brothers Circus and that in itself brings up issues with me...

Icywolf, what verification do you have that that person is an employee? As for the circus, they have not worked there in quite a long while. Dave began his career as a magician and then worked with the circus where he fell in love with birds. Most recently Dave and Jamie spent the year working as the main attraction at an amusement park performing a bird/magic show called ParrotFX. BTW, annually Dave and Jamie and a support crew go out to the Utah desert where the free fly their bird. Its one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen (in pictures only).

I don't work for them but will always come to the defense of someone who is not available to defend themselves if I feel they are being unjustly attacked or the information being being provided is contrary to the fact. For the record, I am a disabled 43 y/o US Navy Veteran who retired from active duty in August 2012. I'm not saying that you're accusing me of being an employee, but just letting people know who I am.

 

[IcyWolf]

I don't like the fact that they have countless numbers of employees all over the web acting like satisfied customers everytime someone says anything bad about them, I've seen it many times and if you don't believe me just read the comments on the one link that monica posted, there is an employee right there pretending to be a customer to "protect their name". I'm not saying they don't care for their birds as they really seem to, but looks can be deceiving and I have never personally met them. Also, Dave and Jamie both work for Ringling Brothers Circus and that in itself brings up issues with me...

Icywolf, what verification do you have that that person is an employee? As for the circus, they have not worked there in quite a long while. Dave began his career as a magician and then worked with the circus where he fell in love with birds. Most recently Dave and Jamie spent the year working as the main attraction at an amusement park performing a bird/magic show called ParrotFX. BTW, annually Dave and Jamie and a support crew go out to the Utah desert where the free fly their bird. Its one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen (in pictures only).

I don't work for them but will always come to the defense of someone who is not available to defend themselves if I feel they are being unjustly attacked or the information being being provided is contrary to the fact. For the record, I am a disabled 43 y/o US Navy Veteran who retired from active duty in August 2012. I'm not saying that you're accusing me of being an employee, but just letting people know who I am.

Like I said, I have never personally met them and they do seem to care for their birds. But I have also witnessed employees claiming to be mere satisfied customers jumping to their defense. I'm not saying that everyone that vouches for them is also on their payroll(such as yourself), but there are those that do it and that bothers me. If you really are doing a great job then the criticisms won't bother you, you would use them to better your program. If you go to this link Don’t Fall for Deceptive Bird Training Tricks – Guest Post by Sid Price of Avian Ambassadors « Best in Flock – Parrot Blog and go to the comments you will see a man with the name jason Macek claiming to be a customer and not mentioning any biased affiliation with the company in question. Then following this link Re: Chet Womack (birdtricks.com) you will see Jason Macek claiming to be a manager at birdtricks.com. Could it be another Jason Macek that also has ties to birdtricks as a customer and not an employee...yes, but highly unlikely.

As for the circus affiliation, they were performing for ringling brothers as of 2010, I don't know if that was the last they did it but it was still only two years ago. I know not everyone has a problem with ringling but I personally do for my own reasons and I can't imagine that any true animal loving person would want to be a part of that.

I'm not trying to start an argument and I usually avoid the birdtricks centered posts on here for that very reason. I have read a lot of their stuff and watched a lot of their (free) videos. I have also participated in their spreecasts and have Mels feed on my facebook. I am not completely anti bird tricks by any means I just disagree with many of their techniques and even more with what they are charging people for information they can get for free. I have gone to peoples homes, welcomed them into my own, played personal shopper, done wing and nail trims while teaching them how to do it, loaned out books and been a listening ear for latenight parront phonecalls among many other things and I have never charged anyone money for any it. And I think what bothers me most is the obnoxious spamming, it's like even when you do purchase their products all they want you to do is purchase even more. I don't know, it just bothers me.

But I do agree, I love their free flight videos and do watch many of them quite often. But like I said, it's not like I hate the people or make a habit out of running around slandering them, I was just stating some things that bother me about their programs. I hope no offense was taken.