BirdTricks reputable?

[SailBoat]

I find it disheartening that individuals search the Web (research) for information and are confused/ surprised at the inconsistency and infighting that exists.

Training Professionals seem to lead in turf fights and commonly are embroiled in such battles. The results are confused potential customers and a huge amount of wasted time.

Which begs the question, why come here after all your efforts? A warning, a supporting Thread, etc, etc, etc...???

 

[Cycletim]

I'm not aware of the past drama. We have been watching their videos for about a year. The seasonal feeding system was about $50.00 for a download, we use it and really like it. It has taken us 2 months to get our Flock off 100% seeds to 80% chop 10% pellets 10% fruit. They are in the advice business in my opinion. Sometimes in life you pay for advice, like using birdtricks and sometimes it is free like the wonderful parrot forum. We also use their pellets, last time I checked they are tops pellets and about the same price. Maybe birdtricks pellets are a few bucks more but, what's wrong with supporting them? We like their content. I will never take our parrots out free flight training ever. But, why would I condemn them for that? I personally love the free flight videos they are beautiful.

 

[wrench13]

Free enterprise - nothing wrong with that. And consulting firms ( in all walks of life) can charge what they feel is justified; heck I do consulting in my chosen field all the time. If your pricing structure is out of line, you end with no costumers. That is how it works. My only concern is when newbies get drawn in and pay substantially higher prices for things available from alternate sourcing. Eg; digital scale - Charging $99 for a digital scale, when these are available, with almost zero investigation, for $14.95. Just saying.

 

[Laurasea]

All the free Bird tricks videos i have watched on YouTube, are spot on, show knowledge and understanding of parrots, very good at reading parrot behavior and shaping behavior also explains behavior to you So I always recommend them. Great foraging videos, target training, step up training, ect.
Didn't know they charge 99 for a scale..but tgey gotta make money.

 

[plumsmum2005]

One aspect about the Womachs that I've never seen acknowledged is that they began their business when they were very young and still discovering a lot about birds. Jamie especially talks about how she knew nothing about birds and learned everything from Dave. Both freely admit to making mistakes along the way and learning from them.

At the same time, I've heard many criticise both Dave and Jamie for their early mistakes. What *is* it with bird people? Apparently, newbie-ism isn't allowed and everyone who acquires a bird is supposed to start out fully equipped with all the currently existing knowledge! The fact is, everyone begins somewhere and everyone makes errors.

Not only that, but a new bird can truly upset one's applecart! When Rosetta arrived, she threw me sideways with her way-out behaviour, despite over fifty years of bird-keeping experience. I'd never seen a bird who'd been so badly socialised and so subject to her hormonal state. I was appalled at my own unpreparedness and failure to know what to do! Yet, this happens to everyone, even the Womachs. And 'bird experts' go for the jugular when they spot any ineptitude or failure in another. Why is that, I wonder?

Anyway, I think these young people are quite genuine in their caring and healthy attitude to their birds. They've chosen to make their living from their acquired knowledge and what's wrong with that? Everything in this world has a dollar value and knowledge is no exception. Despite this, Jamie will reply to simple enquiries for free in a brief email *because she wants to help birds (not people)*. Y'can't say any fairer than that, really!

I get the impression that there is some reigning in on Jamie's part, but as the saying goes behind every successful man there is a good woman
(OK I'm fair game, have a fire extinguisher at the ready


I too like them.



And if only "and everyone who acquires a bird is supposed to start out fully equipped with all the currently existing knowledge!" if not for us for our birds, Utopia!

 

[Tman]

This is my take on birdtricks, Years ago I went on amazon and bought their videos used. And then they had a big sale and I bought more. They are a husband and wife. Just a small company. Yes they may have stuff that high in price but you just don't have to buy it.
Also when it comes to training. I must have read 20 different books on training. And problem solving. I take all that I have read and put things together that fits for me and my parrots.
When I was in my 30s I met a CEO of a major company. He had a baby grand piano in his livingroom. I asked him if he played. He said not yet he was just starting to take lessons. He told me you never want to stop learning.
And thats how I take parrot training. You can always learn something new. Isn't that what makes up this forum?

 

[Ellie777Australia]

My very humble opinion…We are here to learn anything we can from the forum and elsewhere. I read somewhere that my Eclectus can have flaxseed and I read elsewhere that flaxseed is toxic. I read don’t give cucumber, give cucumber, no basil flowers to flowers ok, etc and so on. For me, I need scientific data to assist me in making my ultimate decision of what care I give Bertie and Ellie because I have a science background -my choice and preference. Whether I ‘like or dislike’ some aviculturalist/trainer etc really doesn’t matter. I choose to use the techniques that work for Bertie and Ellie and sometimes that is something only a loving ‘parront’ can know. Please let us be ‘intelligent’ in our decisions and use MULTIPLE sources to gather information.

 

[buurd]

I'm not aware of the past drama. We have been watching their videos for about a year. The seasonal feeding system was about $50.00 for a download, we use it and really like it. It has taken us 2 months to get our Flock off 100% seeds to 80% chop 10% pellets 10% fruit. They are in the advice business in my opinion. Sometimes in life you pay for advice, like using birdtricks and sometimes it is free like the wonderful parrot forum. We also use their pellets, last time I checked they are tops pellets and about the same price. Maybe birdtricks pellets are a few bucks more but, what's wrong with supporting them? We like their content. I will never take our parrots out free flight training ever. But, why would I condemn them for that? I personally love the free flight videos they are beautiful.

My very humble opinion…We are here to learn anything we can from the forum and elsewhere. I read somewhere that my Eclectus can have flaxseed and I read elsewhere that flaxseed is toxic. I read don’t give cucumber, give cucumber, no basil flowers to flowers ok, etc and so on. For me, I need scientific data to assist me in making my ultimate decision of what care I give Bertie and Ellie because I have a science background -my choice and preference. Whether I ‘like or dislike’ some aviculturalist/trainer etc really doesn’t matter. I choose to use the techniques that work for Bertie and Ellie and sometimes that is something only a loving ‘parront’ can know. Please let us be ‘intelligent’ in our decisions and use MULTIPLE sources to gather information.

Agreed. Whether you like someone claiming to be a pro or not, shouldn't take the place of scientific facts when it comes to feeding, for example.

They have a line of food and info on feeding that they sell, but a cursory look showed no collaboration with an avian nutritionist. I did send a message asking them who they worked with that signed off on the nutrition, and received no reply. So has anyone seen info on their food or books, etc, that show they consulted an avian nutritionist who signed off on any of it?

My concern is, if people are drawn to them for good advice on feeding and they care about their birds, then they would want to see something transparently showing them that, since bird tricks are not professionals in avians and their nutrition, that they worked with someone reputable who is. That should be right up there on the pages they are selling their products. You shouldn't have to go on blind faith, no matter how much you think you 'like' them, it doesnt take the place of actual knowledge.

Same with their toys. Are they safe? How did they determine that?

Same with their products. Eg is it safe to spray all birds with aloe vera water? Etc.

 

[emilyapojemma]

I'm 2-3 years late to this conversation, but wanted to agree with Buurd and add an observation of mine. As I got into training my birds, the obvious connections to ABA therapy for Autism came to mind. ABA is widely considered a form of abuse/torture at worst, and ineffective at best, by autistic adults. There's a savant-like quality and amazing potential for learning, along with features of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA). Birdtricks was my go-to until I dove into peer-reviewed research on my own (human & avian psych/behavior/neuro). I learned that avian brains likely resemble the actual structure of human autistic brains. So using draconian behavioral conditioning on a bird (what most conventional bird training influencers do) is unethical and not effective across all species.

My Caique enjoys the video of Jamie working with a WBC named Widget. I was disturbed however that a career trainer couldn't handle baby caique vocalizations and isolated the bird in a dark room at night, letting the bird cry out loudly. Caiques live up to 40 years in captivity, so they have slower psych/social development than a cockatiel or other small bird. Caiques--like primates!--stay in "baby" mode well past 1 year of age; the bird in the video was under 1 year, with baby plumage. Baby caiques did not evolve to self-soothe and fall asleep in alone in a dark room; this is obvious to any science/avian enthusiast, right? A quick google for photos of caiques in groups, in aviaries or in the wild, shows they sleep huddled together in tree cavities or some "cozy" environment. They are capable of burrowing and hollowing out living spaces for themselves, and in the home they will fight to sleep under your covers or anywhere other than a perch. They lack developed flight skills; sleeping exposed on a perch would instinctively feel unsafe for a penguin-like creature. A one-size-fits-all approach to avian behavior breaks down here, since parrots have evolved across various continents in all sorts of climates/ecosystems.

In the video, the poor baby caique refuses to sleep, and Jamie discusses how her family was struggling with the noise--though this was a paid gig. Birds "roost" at night prior to actual sleep. This bird was essentially feeling orphaned and expressing confusion & healthy fear. Widget only fell asleep after the BT family put her in a different cage/sleeping location--the attention from a "flock" plus exhaustion from screaming is likely what caused her to sleep.

The thing is--if you talk to any caique owner--you'd know it's a fool's errand to make a caique sleep alone in a dark room or closet. Caiques usually sleep in a smaller cage, in a room near another bird or family member. There's a level of mild grifting or just ego in making instructional videos about a species about which you are not super knowledgeable. It feels less than ethical to take on a "project bird" only to confuse them during their crucial psychological attachment stage; in the wild a caique that age would sleep cuddled with a family/kinship group in which they're learning secure attachment. The "screaming" is communication of a need, not a behavioral problem.
No hate to Birdtricks, as this is more of a critique of a common training modality I find problematic. I've switched my own training method to one influenced by the Montessori method, Jen Cunha's "Parrot Kindergarten," and sensory-friendly techniques that work well for neurodivergent humans (think: Occupational Therapy instead of ABA therapy). The week I switched from techniques like "ignore the screaming bird" to techniques rooted in research, my Caique started talking more (in place of screeching) and using communication methods like flashcards, "yes/no" training, etc. to get needs met (see: Jen Cunha's work). It is night & day. These animals must be regarded as sentient and capable of sophisticated communication; otherwise you'll find yourself managing screaming all day and functioning essentially as a prison guard. If that floats your boat, so be it.

 

[Owlet]

I have mixed feelings about bird tricks. I use to be a big fan of the videos but the more I learned the more I was put off. I wont go too much into it.

I do have their food books. I'm someone that really needs a recipe to follow and there arent a lot of solid chop recipes out there. So their seasonal feeding system has really helped me. it also follows what's actually in season so I'm not paying a pretty penny for a squash. Now, overtime I've started altering the recipes to fit new information I've read or what I've found my birds do/dont like. But it's still helpful to have a basic guideline. I also like that it has safe treats you can cook and give them.

 

[Percival the great]

I feel like no matter what it is there is always going to be two sides to everything, which is ok! but why do we get so defensive and argumentative we should all respect each other’s opinions and learn from each other if we don’t agree with someone that’s ok just acknowledge and move on, don’t get stuck in an endless battle to change the others mind because the chances are you won’t, and both sides will come out angry and frustrated. People need to learn how to walk away.

I learned a lot from bird tricks as well as many other people… that doesn’t mean in follow everything they say to a tee a just enjoy exploring and learning! Any way i spend a lot of time with animals for a reason

 

[Terry57]

I feel like no matter what it is there is always going to be two sides to everything, which is ok! but why do we get so defensive and argumentative we should all respect each other’s opinions and learn from each other if we don’t agree with someone that’s ok just acknowledge and move on, don’t get stuck in an endless battle to change the others mind because the chances are you won’t, and both sides will come out angry and frustrated. People need to learn how to walk away.

I learned a lot from bird tricks as well as many other people… that doesn’t mean in follow everything they say to a tee a just enjoy exploring and learning! Any way i spend a lot of time with animals for a reason

This couldn't have been said better and I agree with every word. Thank you for putting this so perfectly!

 

[emilyapojemma]

I feel like no matter what it is there is always going to be two sides to everything, which is ok! but why do we get so defensive and argumentative we should all respect each other’s opinions and learn from each other if we don’t agree with someone that’s ok just acknowledge and move on, don’t get stuck in an endless battle to change the others mind because the chances are you won’t, and both sides will come out angry and frustrated. People need to learn how to walk away.

I learned a lot from bird tricks as well as many other people… that doesn’t mean in follow everything they say to a tee a just enjoy exploring and learning! Any way i spend a lot of time with animals for a reason

Yes in absolute agreement! It's so important to explore different methods and constantly learn so that we can develop more humane/effective techniques. That requires peaceful critical thinking and sharing thoughts with each other. Great thoughts here on respect and civility!

 

[emilyapojemma]

Posting a brief apology here after excellent advice Terry57 PM’d me:

“Everyone here has a right to their opinion, and just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong.
Just a hint - if you want people to listen to your point of view, it helps not to be argumentative and offensive in a first post.”

Thankfully, Terry57 edited a sentence out of my original post above that mentioned ADHD/Autism cognition (how sensory features present when the 2 are comorbid), understanding Caique behavior through this lens.

On my post before Terry57’s gracious edit: I apologize for any harm I caused! If context helps: I myself am ADHD & Autistic, active within those communities, and I read up on academic research and discourse in those spaces. So my (thoughtless) comment was coming from an ADHD/Autism person curious about our unique cognition & that of our feathered little ones—not as someone slamming neurodivergent folks.

I'm grateful for feedback & making a point to be super careful about anything “argumentative and offensive” going forward. I'm so sorry to anyone who felt I was directly calling them wrong. Additionally, I apologize to folks who felt I was infringing on their right to an opinion. Thank you for the learning opportunity, & I commit to doing better in the future.

 

[HeatherG]

I think that’s sticking to ANY training system rigidly without considering the unique needs of the individual, bird or human, can be a problem. There’s gotta be some flex somewhere because not everyone fits or is served by one system.

 

[Terry57]

Posting a brief apology here after excellent advice Terry57 PM’d me:

“Everyone here has a right to their opinion, and just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong.
Just a hint - if you want people to listen to your point of view, it helps not to be argumentative and offensive in a first post.”

Thankfully, Terry57 edited a sentence out of my original post above that mentioned ADHD/Autism cognition (how sensory features present when the 2 are comorbid), understanding Caique behavior through this lens.

On my post before Terry57’s gracious edit: I apologize for any harm I caused! If context helps: I myself am ADHD & Autistic, active within those communities, and I read up on academic research and discourse in those spaces. So my (thoughtless) comment was coming from an ADHD/Autism person curious about our unique cognition & that of our feathered little ones—not as someone slamming neurodivergent folks.

I'm grateful for feedback & making a point to be super careful about anything “argumentative and offensive” going forward. I'm so sorry to anyone who felt I was directly calling them wrong. Additionally, I apologize to folks who felt I was infringing on their right to an opinion. Thank you for the learning opportunity, & I commit to doing better in the future.

@emilyapojemma , thank you so much for explaining your meaning in your post, and for the apology. It takes bravery to apologize, especially publicly, and it is much appreciated.

Knowing now that you have ADHD and Autism takes the sting out of the sentence I removed. Thank you for that extra information, although I apologize if you felt pushed into sharing it.

I'm happy you joined us, and hopefully you can learn from us while we also learn from you.

Let's try a fresh start -

Welcome to you and your beautiful caique! I'm Terry, and it's wonderful to meet you

 

[wrench13]

Thanks Emily for the clarification and sharing with us. I hope you stay with us here, we need as much diversity as we can get.