BirdTricks reputable?

[Ezekiell]

I know this can become a heated and hotly debated topic, so I just want to preface that I’m only on the hunt for information to educate myself and help made an informed decision/opinion free of bias. I request that responses be civil (everyone is entitled to their own opinion and trainer resource preferences) and that if claims are being made that evidenced sources are provided.

The reason I am writing this is because I am now very confused after reading a post on a Facebook parrot forum I’m part of claiming that BirdTricks were scammers and warning people away from them. How the post was written was very inflammatory with very little evidence for the claims (just a lot of bias, negative claims, and statements that ‘the evidence was out there’). Now being empirically minded I engaged and noted to the poster that the post seemed inflammatory/biased, stated my opinion but requested further information including links to the sources/evidence the poster claimed they had; of course I was shocked when initially the poster told me I was naive to not believe them outright and to do my own research, then even more shocked and confused when after I prodded a bit more they provided me with links to www.birdtrickersters.com and writings about Chet Womach (not part of birdtricks) dodgey dealings as evidence, with the information being over 10 years old. Additional ‘evidence’ to back up their claims of fraud/scam/illegal activity was that BirdTricks has recently partnered with TOPS to produce a signature pellet formula

Ever the scientist and sceptic in face of outdated and warped sources, I used these as a springboard for further investigation, finding a few websites that all were interlinked and appeared to be made by the same people dating from 2008-2010, claiming BirdTricks were scammers. I even asked my local bird group about BirdTricks and received screenshots of forum boards from 2008/2009 talking about dodgey dealing, usually citing Chet Womach but not truely directly the BirdTricks couple. A quick search on this forum threw up threads from 2008/2009 warning about BirdTricks but then in more recent times much more positive reviews with no mention of Chet.

Essentially, none of the information I can find that is current seems to indicate that there is a major problem with BirdTricks. And this is very confusing, particularly when I am having a few people coming at me telling me I’m naive and a fool yet seeming to present no current evidence that BirdTricks is truely a poor resource.

Before we brought our bird home and in researching species, I came across Birdtricks on YouTube. I haven’t actually bought any of their products because much of their teachings/advice is based in psychology (which is my profession) plus I find it more helpful to search up advice on forums such as this one or watch YouTube videos to tailor/re-tailor it to my needs rather than rely on a course that possibly covers many things not relevant to my situation/current situation.
I’m also familiar with other professional bird trainers such as Barbara Heidenreich, so it’s not like I rely solely on one source.

I guess I’m just wanting some evidence as to whether I should take the people who say “BirdTricks are scammers, ALL their content is fraud, boycott them” seriously, or with a very large grain of salt considering their troubled beginning and the seeming bias of some individuals due to BirdTricks marketing strategies and overall success?

 

[Betrisher]

I found myself in the same position as you and so I sat myself down to watch nearly all of their videos in order to gather both qualitative and quantitative data. All I can say is that for myself, personally, they're bloody marvellous! In fact, when I first got my Rosella and asked for help here, numerous people jumped on me for doing everything wrong and for not automatically knowing the answers to the questions I was asking. Don't worry: that situation was sorted out.

However, an email to Jamieleigh Womach brought a lengthy and considered response which took into account the heightened state of my bird's hormones *without blaming me for it* and suggesting numerous strategies I could try. This advice came absolutely free and without canvassing for me to buy any Womach product. More significantly, it was successful and enabled me to keep a bird who was out of control and dangerous when she arrived.

Therefore, I'm a fan. I haven't seen a single thing in the Womach's methods that disturbs me. Many criticise their use of hunger (ie. training the bird before its meal is served so that its response to tricks will be heightened). I haven't got a problem with that. In fact, it's exactly the method I used to get my kids to tidy their rooms.

I think everyone's response to any trainer will be highly personal and no doubt you'll get responses that loathe and detest the Womachs. All I can say is, watch their stuff and decide for yourself. (PS. The free flight videos are awe-inspiring. Just sayin'...)

 

[ParrotGenie]

I would just avoid the drama, as that exactly what it is. Bringing someone past history from shady dealings 10 years ago and not even directly related to the couple? Even if they were involve somehow in a scam, the fact they started a channel and built something for themselves and to teach others. I could careless about the dealings 10 years ago. People get into trouble and usually due to they fall into hard times, that just how it is unfortunately? It is if you move on take the lifeline and learn from it and built something for yourself and help other, is what matters. Not bullsh#t that happen over 10 years ago.

Most the bigger YouTuber in some cases had came up from hard times and did stuff they regretted to get through. It what they did later on to change, learning from mistakes and accomplishments over the years is what makes, or breaks a person. You will always have negative people trying to bring other down due to they are jealous. I won't bother to read into the drama to much, especially when it involving someone else and not directly them. Grown adults can act like kids at times and gossip?

I say BirdTricks even through I may not agree with some of there training at times? My personal opinion which I can set aside, but at times they do take a lot of risk, but at least calculated as they do get advise first. They are far far more better then most the pettubers on YouTube. BirdTrick work with and get advise from other experts as well. Probably one of the only bird trainers on YouTube worth watching at times. Most important they learn from mistakes and take advise from other, unlike most the others. The other two big well known ones like MARLENE MC'COHEN and Carolin von Petzholdt make me cringe anytime I see they uploaded a video as it always about click-baits. drama and themselves and spread misinformation quite a bit.

 

[Ezekiell]

Thank you both!
I do agree that dredging up drama for 12 years ago when there is no evidence to substantiate that the drama continues currently is just fear mongering and childish. I guess I just needed somewhere to vent and get some extra info, particularly because this person kept coming at me. I’m also a tad relentless when I’m told to just accept someone’s word for it or else, hence why I kept pushing them to provide their evidence.

After a lot of accusations and personal attacks on their part about my ethics and intelligence, they did actually give up their evidence. All of which sourced itself or invalid, uncredible sources, basically a whole heap of straw man crap. Not to mention I finally thought to cross-reference who this person making the claims was themselves after they cried BirdTricks didn’t have formal credentials as a professional trainer with qualifications unlike them; ended up laughing myself silly after finding this person was actually just a hobbyist and small town maverick with zero professional trainer experience or personal connections to the professionals trainers they said were their friends as they claimed.

Despite the time taken to gather all the evidence, I am kinda glad I did as if anyone does get hooked by the scare mongers at least I’m now one more person who can provide the ‘evidence’ if wanted so people can make up their own minds, rather than just be scared off a good resource.

It really is a shame how people do this though. Its almost a different kind of scamming really...

 

[shinyuankuo]

Birdtricks was a part of my reasoning to get into parronting. They made parrot ownership transparent through their videos. I also looked up their information after hearing people's criticism. There is a thread on this forum where Jamie personally answers people's complain. I thought her answers are very fair. I least I accept them.
I find many reputable people and their followers in the bird circle criticizing Birdtricks. I believe their points were also valid at one point of the time. I just don't see their claims being act out by Birdtricks anymore.
Every business has its good and shady part. Just like what I can tell you about my old employer, which is a hospital. There were really great/bad things happening at the same time. But, in my very naive opinion, I feel that the bird circle is not very forgiving. We, as fellow bird lovers at large, need to focus more on the facts rather than emotions.
You know, some people might be very angry reading my post about Birdtricks and the bird circle here. However, I benefit from watching Birdtricks video. I find the value of their business applicable to my relationship with my bird. That's how I arrived at my stand towards Birdtricks. Everyone has the freedom to support them or not. I just wish we not get hung on the negative emotions.


(BTW, At the time of writing this post, my bird is trying hard to kill a toy sold by Birdtricks.:18

 

[noodles123]

Regardless of controversy-- their general informational videos etc are pretty spot-on. They know what they are doing for the most part, and they are a good resource (IMO, granted I do not agree with all of their philosophies on free-flying etc). When compared to many bird people on Youtube, they do a much better job of explaining and teaching/avoiding the majority of things that are harmful. Although some of their products are over-priced, they do provide an awful lot of valuable instruction for free, and I agree with the majority of their teachings.

 

[wrench13]

Never saw any of thier stuff. Just used common sense.

 

[Jottlebot]

I've watched most of what they have on YouTube. I find them totally reputable. Their training is based on positive rewards and "permission based training ", which might be their own phrase, but means you ask and never expect, which I'm very comfortable with.

I seem to remember reading a similar post here a few years ago to the one you reference about Chet Womach and them being scammers and I seem to remember Jamie actually responded and calmly explained amd responded to everything.

They seem to "re-phrase" things like positive and negative reward (I think they call it) instead of positive and negative reinforcement, but there's nothing wrong with that and they are a business and are trying to make things easier to understand.

I have found their YouTube videos a bit "commercial" lately in that they're selling their products a lot, which is not of interest to me, but I have no doubt they are excellent role models and trainers.

 

[chris-md]

Permission based training is definitely not proprietary to them. It’s A topic in dog training as well

 

[chris-md]

Never saw any of thier stuff. Just used common sense.

If only we all had half your common sense my friend!

 

[chris-md]

I’ll second third and fourth everything above, and co-sign jottlebot; it’s all positive reinforcement with them. I remember the thread being talked about but don’t recall what the controversy was about. Either way, doesn’t seem to be an issue now.

 

[noodles123]

Never saw any of thier stuff. Just used common sense.

If only we all had half your common sense my friend!

I feel like I am missing something? What I have seen isn't controversial or radical at all...?

 

[Betrisher]

One aspect about the Womachs that I've never seen acknowledged is that they began their business when they were very young and still discovering a lot about birds. Jamie especially talks about how she knew nothing about birds and learned everything from Dave. Both freely admit to making mistakes along the way and learning from them.

At the same time, I've heard many criticise both Dave and Jamie for their early mistakes. What *is* it with bird people? Apparently, newbie-ism isn't allowed and everyone who acquires a bird is supposed to start out fully equipped with all the currently existing knowledge! The fact is, everyone begins somewhere and everyone makes errors.

Not only that, but a new bird can truly upset one's applecart! When Rosetta arrived, she threw me sideways with her way-out behaviour, despite over fifty years of bird-keeping experience. I'd never seen a bird who'd been so badly socialised and so subject to her hormonal state. I was appalled at my own unpreparedness and failure to know what to do! Yet, this happens to everyone, even the Womachs. And 'bird experts' go for the jugular when they spot any ineptitude or failure in another. Why is that, I wonder?

Anyway, I think these young people are quite genuine in their caring and healthy attitude to their birds. They've chosen to make their living from their acquired knowledge and what's wrong with that? Everything in this world has a dollar value and knowledge is no exception. Despite this, Jamie will reply to simple enquiries for free in a brief email *because she wants to help birds (not people)*. Y'can't say any fairer than that, really!

 

[noodles123]

And 'bird experts' go for the jugular when they spot any ineptitude or failure in another. Why is that, I wonder?

I like them fine, like I said (birdtricks).

I think the reason people "go for the jugular" (when people make critical errors) is due to the fact that these AMAZING and intelligent species are so often misrepresented and downplayed, that once you know what they require and their crazy intelligence, it feels that is it is your holy obligation to speak the truth to others and protect these birds from more trauma/inexperience. They are so complex and people just don't take them seriously at times. There is SO much misinformation on pet websites that makes these animals seem like run-of-the-mill pets who can be shut away in cages (with little mention of Teflon, dietary issues, bed-times etc) and attending to all of these unmentioned factors is essential for making a safe/happy home with a parrot.

They are so often re-homed (which adds to their trauma and behavioral issues) and they are so fragile--so it isn't like there is a lot of time to waste hinting at things..I know it is off-putting to the uninitiated, but it is love that fuels that level of assertion/passion. Time is of the essence and a simple newbie mistake could kill or traumatize a bird, so people do tend to speak forcefully (at times, if they do not, it seems that the recipient often disregards the message).

If you found out a mother new mother was throwing her newborn into ice-water periodically, or allowing him/her to play with a loaded gun with good intentions, would you hint at a solution, or "go for the jugular"? I am not saying that new owner mistakes are deliberate abuse, but they can be deadly, as can an infant playing with a plastic bag---and any reaction is likely to be strong when someone's life or long-term well-being is on the line...even if it isn't always tactful. I understand that this could be "off-putting" but so is the death of a bird...Or the perpetuation of behavioral mistakes/trauma that lead(s) to repeated and long-term re-homing issues and a distraught bird.

 

[chris-md]

Never saw any of thier stuff. Just used common sense.

If only we all had half your common sense my friend!

I feel like I am missing something? What I have seen isn't controversial or radical at all...?

Wrong person to ask unfortunately. I know there was something once upon a time but I was never clear what the problem was. I do remember the thread mentioned above where Jamie Herself actually jumped in to defend themselves, but for the life of me I don’t recall what the hoopla was about.

The worst I’ve heard was they starved their birds for free flight, but such accusations can be misleading.

The only other thing I’ve heard, maybe from mark, was a tirade about passing standard training techniques off as their own, an accusation which also makes no sense to my mind.

So, *shrug* I have no idea but have no problems with them, actually quite like them and have learned some great techniques from them.

 

[Ezekiell]

Noodles, what Bertrisher is basically the missing piece of the puzzle. I basically spent all day yesterday coaxing actual sources out of this particular person attempting to clarify the legitimacy of their fb post in a parrot group that literally started with the headline “BIRDTRICKS! Warning. I’m posting this as so many don’t know the truth about these scammers” before devolving into claims of flooding, starving, plagerism, and illegal activity.
I was confused and concerned so asked for the evidence cited, which they initially didn’t want to provide but eventually did with a significant amount of coaxing whilst throwing personal abuse at me.
Basically these people are hanging on to the mistakes Birdtricks made when they first started out (things we all do and learn from) but also crying blue murder that they have illegally plagerised and stolen from professional trainers when really permission base training and use of public areas for free flight is not intellectual property of anyone really.

I’m thankful that with the help of a number of forums I’m a part of I now have a bank of links and screenshots of a yahoo group headed by these nut jobs which they deleted in 2018 (presumably to hide evidence that they gave birdtricks advice when they first started out which was taken up then turned around and crucified them for not knowing it in the first place).

 

[sunshinemama91]

Dude, I frigging love that couple haha! I just found them recently and honestly, they have been helpful more than anything.

 

[1oldparroter]

BirdTrix actually, is quite good. They have shifted their advice and experience to a commercial endeavor; seems they decided that their "time" isn't free. There are a lot of youtube.com video's I have watched, some like guy on wingsNpaws are a chronicle of his African Grey but sound general advice. Some are a bit opiniated or biased but a little common sense on our part should be exercised, their opinion should be considered but then most are just expressing an opinion. We should all of us read, watch as much as possible and form our own opinions "after" having done so. I hope your bird's (other pets of kids) benefit from the experiences. jh

 

[ParrotGenie]

BirdTrix actually, is quite good. They have shifted their advice and experience to a commercial endeavor; seems they decided that their "time" isn't free.

Nothing wrong with that. It quite normal for people to build a branding for themselves and go into a commercial endeavor and get partners and sponsors. It how you brand yourselves and they have to make a living, plus they earned it. It not as easy as people assume to put out free decent to good advice with the production quality they do. It worst then a 9 to 5 as they have to spend hours a day editing and shooting the videos and while getting advise from other experts and trying not to make mistakes on video. It is a lot harder then you would think, as a lot more variables then just the parrots and set/background they shoot the video? A lot more technical and requires a team of people to get it right. You have to remember they did this for free for a while with no return of investment and YouTube itself is not what it use to be as use to be a larger YouTuber myself with 30k subscribers at one point, till I shutdown the channel as wasn't worth the time as at that time Patreon wasn't as know, or around. YouTube pays out not even a 3rd what they use to years ago. Hence reason people turn to crowdfunding sources like Patreon or people giving donations to the channel, sponsors and etc. They stuck around despite all of that, so they earned that right.

People that get jealous and criticize them because they decide to take on a commercial endeavor need to get a life? The hours they spend trying to slander them could be spend on a more productive endeavor themselves instead of bashing them on various Facebook groups, bird clubs and various forums. I don't necessary agree with a 100% of what they do, but they are much better then the other 95% of PetTubers put out and for the most part they are on point.

 

[Kiwisky]

I’ve been watching many of BT’s videos. I find them entertaining. They don’t claim to be anything other that what they are. They specifically say they don’t have degrees etc. Sometimes their language is a little off putting but one thing I learned from them through a free podcast was the idea of making your bird forage for food. I have two budgie parakeets and now I “hide” their food on the play stand. During the day, they have full access to a room in our house- cage door is left open all day. At first I thought these guys won’t figure it out and they would starve but they have. My parakeets are very lazy and the foraging definitely gives them something to do. I check each night and they are able to find their food each day. It’s funny to watch them pull paper off of the stand to get their food or to move their toys out of the way. I hide the food in multiple locations. It’s definitely enriched their lives.