Are all breeders evil?

[SilverSage]

One of my "Facebook friends" posted the following in her status today. My first feelings were, hurt, outrage, and the desire to block her. However I decided to respond to her via private message instead. The reason I'm choosing to share it here is because I think her views are shared by a lot of well meaning people. I'm including her post and my response, edited only to eliminate her name.


FACEBOOK POST:

to all those who "breed" animals, enslaving them in the most appalling of conditions to feed your greed,

picture this: spaceman lands and decides to create his own little collection of homo crapiens...and you;re selected to be part of this little experiment.

you are placed in a dark space, food and water, if any, thrown at or on you. another of your species, neither of your choice nor liking, is encased in this filthy tomb with you.

then another. you give birth and your child is taken away from you. you hear your captors talking in a language you are beginning to understand.

lights on lights off. more sustenance provided, just enough to keep you barely alive.

time passes, you are tired and tired of this non life forced upon you...

those who have done this to you decide that you no longer serve any purpose....

now that it happened to you, you finally realize how wrong you were and you sigh, as the irony closes your eyes, one last time.

please no more breeding. living things are not commodities...they have dreams, wishes unfulfilled, hopes,hearts and love.

thank you!

MY RESPONSE AS A BREEDER

Good evening,
I just read your post on breeding. It broke my heart. It broke my heart that you assume anyone who allows animals to reproduce is evil, greedy, cruel, and abusive. It broke my heart that you assume the only reason to breed animals is for personal financial gain, with no thought given to the conservation goals, and other goals aimed at helping all pet and domestic animals live a better, healthier, more rewarding life.

I sending this to you personally because I have no interest in starting a fight or causing drama. But I feel that as an adult I needed to let you know that your post hurt me deeply, and was a very vicious attack on myself, my life's work, and all the GOOD that comes from that. I will continue breeding birds and working toward my goals.

My goal of developing more natural and humane methods of raising parrots to live in homes.

My goal of eliminating self destructive behaviors in parrots by eliminating the causes of the suffering behind them.

My goal to destroy parrot mills.

My goal to see REAL and TRUE information outnumber false and harmful "information" even on the internet.

My goal to increase our knowledge of avian veterinary science and availability of tests and treatments.

My goal to make force weaning, early clipping, flooding, super clutching, and other cruel practices a thing of the past in this country by showing the difference in the adult bird, thus making it so that no one is willing to buy from breeders who practice these things.

My goal of increasing awareness of genetic purity and the importance of genetic testing before breeding, as well as increasing the range, availability and affordability of these tests.

My goal of forging a tight bond between breeders and rescuers in this country in order to place every bird in a safe and loving home.

My goal of seeing rescues disappear because if baby birds were actually raised humanely by responsible breeders who bother to have ethical standards and contracts we wouldn't NEED rescues anymore.

My goal of working with endangered species, not just to preserve a dying species in captivity like we have with hyacinth macaws and Moluccan cockatoos, but also to see avian behavioral science progress to the point of being able to consistently succeed at reintroduction into the wild.

My goal of being able to monitor and assist the progress and health of a baby bird from the day the egg is laid in order to save every possible individual of these critically endangered species.

My goal of developing a comprehensive test to help people determine which pet bird species are REALLY right for them instead of just picking a pretty one of the Internet or based on a quiz that says if you work from home and make lots of money then a macaw or cockatoo is the right bird for you.

My goal of finding a safe and reliable method of birdy birth control.

My goal of giving birds what dogs and cats already have; a basic understanding by the general public of what they needs to be healthy and happy.

And many others. These are a few of the reasons I breed birds. I don't make money on it; I wish I did! I'm not doing it because I'm selfish, on the contrary, these birds control my entire life!

I'm not angry with you; I'm heart broken. The sort of attack you launched today is the sort of thing that drives wedges between animal lovers and prevents young breeders with good intentions from reaching out to more experienced parrot owners, and all that does is cause suffering.

I respect you, and I respect the COMPASSION and LOVE which I know are the reason you said what you did. I'm not unfriending you or blocking you, I'm just letting you know that you painted me and those like me in an unfair and untrue light. Please reconsider your words. Now I'm off to snuggle the mother of my current cockatiel clutch. They live a great life with tons of enrichment, but she seems a bit tired and I think she could use a break for a little while. You know, since I love her deeply and am well acquainted with her moods, likes, and dislikes. Quite UNLIKE the situation you described...


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[Owlet]

I believe you handled the situation brilliantly and I'd love to know how she responds if she does.

 

[SilverSage]

If she responds I may or may not share it, depending on what it is. I have to be sure to respect her privacy if I do.


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[wrench13]

Plus baby birds are cute to watch. Brilliant answer,sir.

 

[SilverSage]

Actually, I'm a girl


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[Kentuckienne]

I don't think you're evil, Silver. The original post is ironic. First, there are breeders who treat animals as described (dogs and cats, I expect) but those people aren't going to be convinced by that post. They lack the empathy to do the thought experiment of putting themselves in the animal's place. So the original post won't do any good as far as changing breeding habits. It can only create anger at the described evildoer, and perhaps convince some people to speak against captive/domestic animal breeding.

Which I acknowledge I have some ambivalence about. I call it the elephant problem. Some people want ivory, and they don't care abut dead elephants. Conservationists managed to get new ivory banned, but allowed sales of old ivory. This lead unexpectedly to MORE elephant slaughter, as now the new ivory can be falsely documented as being old, and sold freely. Saying all right, NO ivory can be sold helped a bit more. Now there is no legal way to market, but it doesn't stop the slaughter either, because smugglers work around the system. And some people stockpile ivory, believing that it will be legal again some day, and they can sell it then for huge profits. We have people who want something, will pay a high price for it, and don't care what harm it does. We have people who want that money, will shoot elephants to get it, and don't care what harm it does. As long as there are humans and money, this kind of thing will happen. There would have to be a huge deterrent, like if you possess any ivory you go to jail, and can you imagine the outcry from owners of "legitimate" ivory obtained long ago? I fear that elephants are doomed in the wild. Africa is too big, poachers are too elusive and the money is irresistible.

As long as there are humans who want pretty birds, people will sell pretty birds. If they can catch them and smuggle them, they will. If they can breed them - humanely or not - they will. It's not possible to prevent unsuitable humans from buying birds they tire of, or mistreat, or put in the closet etc. As long as parrots are for sale, unsuitable people will buy them, so there will be parrots suffering and in need of rescue that may never come. The only way to stop it would be to prohibit all parrot ownership, and then the market will just go to another country. The whole world would have to agree, and that will never happen. We don't have prerequisites for having children, so no way we'll have them for animals.

Yes, there is conservation breeding to preserve genes, but a truly wild parrot, one that could make it, probably has more aggressive, less tame genes than a parrot that makes a good companion. So we're altering the gene pool no matter what, and maybe preserving traits that don't help reintroduced parrots survive in the wild.

I don't know any solution. It seems to me that we must at least acknowledge the spectrum of parrot-keeping: it ranges from wonderful, loving companionship to brutal, inhumane torture. If the good aspects didn't exist, the terrible ones wouldn't either. Without a marketplace, without social status, without social endorsement the "bad" breeders and owners wouldn't be able to do their thing.

I feel this way about eating. To survive, I must take someone else's life and eat it. Whether a plant, an animal or fish - something has to die for me to live. And all the people involved in the chain of bringing food to my reach require this same tribute of lives. There's nothing I can do about it. I can't live without eating. All I can do is to eat mindfully. I can think about the living things that died for my dinner, I can do my best not to waste their lives by letting their bodies go to rot, and I can resolve to do some good in the world to show...what...honor? gratitude? respect? of the price paid for my existence.

Of course not all breeders are evil. Some are angels. Some are ignorant fools. Some are evil. You are right when you speak about the importance of education, of rescuing the unfortunate. I personally have grave misgivings about the parrot pet trade. Parrots live so long that they are likely to run into a bad situation eventually, and people cannot be controlled. We have a parrot, but he's one who needed rescue. So I can feel sanctimonious, except that I also envy people with cuddly baby greenwings or chatty greys or incandescent little sunnies. I'm not pure of heart, just restrained. And I have no answers as to how to chop off the bad end of the spectrum. I'm glad there are people like you, to bring the babies into the world responsibly and find good homes for them, and help the downtrodden. Thank you for the kindness you bring to these little lives.

 

[BeatriceC]

What her post described was a mill, not a breeder. There's a difference. Responsible breeding is a good thing. I personally don't like buying baby birds from breeders for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very long life span of the larger birds and my preference for taking in birds that outlived their humans. None of my reasons, however, apply to buying baby birds (or puppies or kittens) from responsible, reputable breeders.

Your response was wonderful. It gives people something to think about in the "breeder vs rescue" debate.

 

[Scott]

Brilliant, Dani, a spectacular response!

 

[plumsmum2005]

Very interesting and thought provoking read and excellent responses. Great reply Silversage.

"And I have no answers as to how to chop off the bad end of the spectrum" courtesy of Kentuckienne - talk about it, name and shame, put the information out there so the wider world can know what is right and what is wrong. IMO it worked with puppy farming, even I have some clue on what is bad and do not have a dog, but if I wanted a puppy I would know about the bad out there and seek further information and not just blindly go out buying.

 

[LeaKP]

Aw I felt so badly when I read the post. That's coming from someone who has only part of the story. There are wonderful people like yourself who love what they do. If I were in a different place in my life, I'd love to learn how to breed carefully, like you. I think you do a great service to people like myself who would love to have a bird but don't know where to turn. You educate, are careful with who gets your birds, and you don't over breed.

Don't worry, people have opinions. Often, as in this situation, those opinions are formed out of partial knowledge.

Just my two cents.

 

[itzjbean]

What a great response. I wonder if she'll reply! I'm also wondering what caused her to make her status as such, perhaps she had a really bad experience, or maybe she's seen some PETA stuff that got her all fired up? ...

 

[SilverSage]

Some of you have made some replies that are really well thought out and I'll try to respond to individually later today

I just wanted to let you know that she responded. It is SO REFRESHING when people act like adults!

She very respectfully said that I am an exception to the rule, and while she still feels that all the birds in rescues should be placed before we produce any more, she appreciates me and the way I care for my birds and wishes that more people were like me instead of like she portrayed.

I didn't "win an argument " with her but I really do feel like she listened to what I had to say


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[SilverSage]

I don't think you're evil, Silver. The original post is ironic. First, there are breeders who treat animals as described (dogs and cats, I expect) but those people aren't going to be convinced by that post. They lack the empathy to do the thought experiment of putting themselves in the animal's place. So the original post won't do any good as far as changing breeding habits. It can only create anger at the described evildoer, and perhaps convince some people to speak against captive/domestic animal breeding.

Which I acknowledge I have some ambivalence about. I call it the elephant problem. Some people want ivory, and they don't care abut dead elephants. Conservationists managed to get new ivory banned, but allowed sales of old ivory. This lead unexpectedly to MORE elephant slaughter, as now the new ivory can be falsely documented as being old, and sold freely. Saying all right, NO ivory can be sold helped a bit more. Now there is no legal way to market, but it doesn't stop the slaughter either, because smugglers work around the system. And some people stockpile ivory, believing that it will be legal again some day, and they can sell it then for huge profits. We have people who want something, will pay a high price for it, and don't care what harm it does. We have people who want that money, will shoot elephants to get it, and don't care what harm it does. As long as there are humans and money, this kind of thing will happen. There would have to be a huge deterrent, like if you possess any ivory you go to jail, and can you imagine the outcry from owners of "legitimate" ivory obtained long ago? I fear that elephants are doomed in the wild. Africa is too big, poachers are too elusive and the money is irresistible.

As long as there are humans who want pretty birds, people will sell pretty birds. If they can catch them and smuggle them, they will. If they can breed them - humanely or not - they will. It's not possible to prevent unsuitable humans from buying birds they tire of, or mistreat, or put in the closet etc. As long as parrots are for sale, unsuitable people will buy them, so there will be parrots suffering and in need of rescue that may never come. The only way to stop it would be to prohibit all parrot ownership, and then the market will just go to another country. The whole world would have to agree, and that will never happen. We don't have prerequisites for having children, so no way we'll have them for animals.

Yes, there is conservation breeding to preserve genes, but a truly wild parrot, one that could make it, probably has more aggressive, less tame genes than a parrot that makes a good companion. So we're altering the gene pool no matter what, and maybe preserving traits that don't help reintroduced parrots survive in the wild.

I don't know any solution. It seems to me that we must at least acknowledge the spectrum of parrot-keeping: it ranges from wonderful, loving companionship to brutal, inhumane torture. If the good aspects didn't exist, the terrible ones wouldn't either. Without a marketplace, without social status, without social endorsement the "bad" breeders and owners wouldn't be able to do their thing.

I feel this way about eating. To survive, I must take someone else's life and eat it. Whether a plant, an animal or fish - something has to die for me to live. And all the people involved in the chain of bringing food to my reach require this same tribute of lives. There's nothing I can do about it. I can't live without eating. All I can do is to eat mindfully. I can think about the living things that died for my dinner, I can do my best not to waste their lives by letting their bodies go to rot, and I can resolve to do some good in the world to show...what...honor? gratitude? respect? of the price paid for my existence.

Of course not all breeders are evil. Some are angels. Some are ignorant fools. Some are evil. You are right when you speak about the importance of education, of rescuing the unfortunate. I personally have grave misgivings about the parrot pet trade. Parrots live so long that they are likely to run into a bad situation eventually, and people cannot be controlled. We have a parrot, but he's one who needed rescue. So I can feel sanctimonious, except that I also envy people with cuddly baby greenwings or chatty greys or incandescent little sunnies. I'm not pure of heart, just restrained. And I have no answers as to how to chop off the bad end of the spectrum. I'm glad there are people like you, to bring the babies into the world responsibly and find good homes for them, and help the downtrodden. Thank you for the kindness you bring to these little lives.

There is a huge range of parrot ownership, just like you say. I know we can never wipe out the evil or clueless breeders completely but there ARE things we can do to reduce the financial incentive of bad breeders and parrot poachers. Let me say I am NOT JUDGING people who found the love of their life in a chain pet store. I've done it too. But...

-almost all chain pet stores and many smaller pet stores buy from "commercial breeders" which are basically well maintained parrot mills. These places usually engage in all the cruel practices currently accepted in American aviculture as normal such as super clutching, force weaning, early clipping, and flooding. They sell babies for 20-30% of the "retail" price. If people would stop buying birds from chain pet stores the demand would drop, the parrot mill would lose tons of money because they would have birds they couldn't sell. Imagine a parrot mill as a fast food place. Say they typically sell 5,000 burgers a week. If half the population decided to only purchase burgers from restaurants with ethically sourced beef, the fast food place would end up with 2,500 unsold burgers that week which disrupts everything in their system. Their burgers are on autoship, they are getting more burgers in than they can sell, they have to store them, they have to feed them (if the burgers were parrots) they still have to pay the company that sends the beef and the buns because they have a contract (as in, they still have all the parents), eventually they just can't function anymore because not enough people are buying the burgers.

Now they have two options; they can begin ethically sourcing their beef (actually raising parrots in a humane fashion) which is difficult and expensive, or they can drastically reduce their burger orders (produce fewer babies). Chances are though that they will not be able to survive long term on either of these strategies because their entire business is structured around pumping out burgers (or birds) at the highest possible number for the lowest possible cost.

In a commercial breeding setting a baby bird might get 5 minutes or less per day of actual handling as he is fed. Contrast that with an ethical small time breeder where the babies get snuggles, love, introduction into life in the home at the right time in development, etc.


That's just one aspect but it's a simple one. Parrot mills exist because people pay them to. We will never get people to stop entirely but through education we can help them see the cruelty in it just like we have with puppies.



As for conservation, yes, we alter the gene pool. Interestingly enough, in most cases our birds are genetically MORE WILD than their wild counterparts. Think about it; what is the cheapest way for a parrot mill (the people producing the largest number of babies) to get breeders? Maybe you aren't aware of this ugly underside but I'll tell the cheapest way; they breed failed pets. Birds that pluck, scream, bite, and "go wild." I have had dozens of people say things to me like "oh I had an Eclectus but she really just hated us so we gave her to a breeder." Or "my cockatiel/lovebird wouldn't stop laying eggs so we just let her breed." By the way chronic egg laying is a MAJOR HEALTH CONCERN and seems to be largely hereditary. This is yet ANOTHER way parrot mills screw over pet owners; they give you the worst possible genetic foundation in addition to all the mental and emotional abuse.

Also, I'm one of those people who would rather see our endangered species thrive in captivity than disappear entirely. Scarlet Macaws are an amazing example of this; highly endangered in the wild, but in no real danger of disappearing from earth. Actually they are one of the only species that have been reintroduced to the wild with any success.

I personally do have spent a lot of money shaping my breeding flock around temperament specifically so that my babies have the best possible genetic foundation for peaceful and healthy life with a human family.



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[SilverSage]

What her post described was a mill, not a breeder. There's a difference. Responsible breeding is a good thing. I personally don't like buying baby birds from breeders for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very long life span of the larger birds and my preference for taking in birds that outlived their humans. None of my reasons, however, apply to buying baby birds (or puppies or kittens) from responsible, reputable breeders.

Your response was wonderful. It gives people something to think about in the "breeder vs rescue" debate.

Thank you I personally feel
That there should be no "breeder vs. rescue" debate any more than there should be a "biological child vs. adopted child" debate. In my human family I'm the oldest of 7 kids; 5 biologically produced by my parents, two adopted. We are all their kids, but they could never have produced Allie and Carter themselves, because they already existed somewhere else! And just like many rescue birds, my brother and sister were being horribly abused and neglected. My parents love us all, and they know they didn't cause Allie and Carter to suffer by giving birth to us, but they also wouldn't trade those two for anything. I hope to have both biological and adopted human children myself as well. Not because I don't want to be pregnant or anything, but because I feel that some of my children just happened to come into the world somewhere else.

I personally am the "go to girl" in my area when people want to dump Indian Ringnecks, Pionus, and green cheeked conures. Why? Because I work with these species and I feel responsible to protect them. My babies don't get dumped because I protect them with an absolutely insane legally binding contract and maintain relationships with my adopters, but I still do everything I can to help match these guys up with good homes even though I didn't produce them. In fact I have rehomed more unwanted GCCs than I have produced. It isn't overpopulation, either. It's a MAJOR lack of caring and education on the part of most of the breeders and pet stores in my area. Basically I believe any reputable breeder belongs on the rescue scene as well. Maybe not everyone can do it the same way I do, but even just donating to rescues is important. The breeder vs. rescuer divide is one of the most damaging things in aviculture in my opinion.


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[SilverSage]

Very interesting and thought provoking read and excellent responses. Great reply Silversage.

"And I have no answers as to how to chop off the bad end of the spectrum" courtesy of Kentuckienne - talk about it, name and shame, put the information out there so the wider world can know what is right and what is wrong. IMO it worked with puppy farming, even I have some clue on what is bad and do not have a dog, but if I wanted a puppy I would know about the bad out there and seek further information and not just blindly go out buying.

Exactly!

The problem is that most people have NO IDEA what a baby bird needs! They think as long as it is clean and fed it is fine, right? WRONG!

babies can be majorly damaged by being fed too infrequently, yet they still grow up physically fine to be sold because the breeder stretched the crop to allow more food to be fed at one time so they don't have to feed as often. This leaves the bird very insecure mentally and emotionally and can lead to many behavior problems down the line, but they buyer has NO IDEA anything has been done wrong. That's just one example and as far as I know there isn't even a NAME for that. Not to mention all the other things people take for granted that are very cruel like early clipping, force weaning (nobody admits to force weaning, they just call it "reducing formula"), and social isolation in separate cages for young babies in the store.

Education is key. This is something that is really frustrating to me as a breeder because the knowledge is basically hoarded. So when someone goes to a breeder they are basically led to believe that breeder knows everything. We don't. And 9 times out of 10 that breeder is engaging in harmful practices without even realizing it because they are just doing what the Internet said to do.


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[BeatriceC]

What her post described was a mill, not a breeder. There's a difference. Responsible breeding is a good thing. I personally don't like buying baby birds from breeders for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very long life span of the larger birds and my preference for taking in birds that outlived their humans. None of my reasons, however, apply to buying baby birds (or puppies or kittens) from responsible, reputable breeders.

Your response was wonderful. It gives people something to think about in the "breeder vs rescue" debate.

Thank you I personally feel
That there should be no "breeder vs. rescue" debate any more than there should be a "biological child vs. adopted child" debate. In my human family I'm the oldest of 7 kids; 5 biologically produced by my parents, two adopted. We are all their kids, but they could never have produced Allie and Carter themselves, because they already existed somewhere else! And just like many rescue birds, my brother and sister were being horribly abused and neglected. My parents love us all, and they know they didn't cause Allie and Carter to suffer by giving birth to us, but they also wouldn't trade those two for anything. I hope to have both biological and adopted human children myself as well. Not because I don't want to be pregnant or anything, but because I feel that some of my children just happened to come into the world somewhere else.

I personally am the "go to girl" in my area when people want to dump Indian Ringnecks, Pionus, and green cheeked conures. Why? Because I work with these species and I feel responsible to protect them. My babies don't get dumped because I protect them with an absolutely insane legally binding contract and maintain relationships with my adopters, but I still do everything I can to help match these guys up with good homes even though I didn't produce them. In fact I have rehomed more unwanted GCCs than I have produced. It isn't overpopulation, either. It's a MAJOR lack of caring and education on the part of most of the breeders and pet stores in my area. Basically I believe any reputable breeder belongs on the rescue scene as well. Maybe not everyone can do it the same way I do, but even just donating to rescues is important. The breeder vs. rescuer divide is one of the most damaging things in aviculture in my opinion.


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Your family is the opposite of mine. I'm the second of six, but only two of us are biological. Two of the four adopted siblings were adopted out of the foster care system. Another adopted sibling was adopted from a relative who was losing custody and the fourth was adopted from a teenager who made the choice to give the baby up at birth. All the adopted kids but that one have abusive histories.

I think the only "breeder vs rescue" debate should be more along the lines of what bird is the best fit for a particular home. Using me as an example, it's best for me to get a bird from a rescue. I've made this decision after a lot of thought. There are several factors. The two biggest are the fact that I have absolutely no desire to deal with birdie adolescence, and the fact that I'm just naturally drawn to older animals. Even with cats and dogs, when I could have them, I would go to the shelter and ask to only see the animals that were scheduled to be put down that day or the next day, and choose from them. I'm good with animals that have bad histories, and I enjoy working with them, so it makes sense for me to go the rescue route. Between that and wanting to avoid adolescence, an older rescue bird is a better fit for my home*. That's the only kind of "debate" I think should be happening, so long as we're only talking about responsible breeding.

*Obviously, if the circumstances are right, I would buy a baby, and just did, when I bought my son his lovebird. That store sells a combination of babies and birds that are being re-homed. As far as I know, the breeders they use are small operations like yourself, so I think they're okay.

 

[SilverSage]

You say opposite but I say the same we both have been exposed to what life can be like for kids who aren't kept safe by their parents and need a new family

I always suggest an older bird if one is available and reasonable. I understand WHY most rescues make it so hard to adopt, but I think it can be counter productive. I've been denied the opportunity to rescue because I have rehomed a pet; it was a dog who would LITERALLY HAVE DIED if I had kept her but they very strictly do not allow adoptions to anyone who has rehomed for any reason.

I know people who would have preferred to adopt an older bird but couldn't afford to make the required 4 trips across state to visit the bird and take weekend long classes.

I think there are adjustments needed on both sides, and healthy dialogue is needed. Buuuuuut most of us would rather fight

And birdy adolescence is no joke! I don't send my babies home with anyone who only has juvenile birds. I tell them to come back in a year or two once puberty has hit their first bird.


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[BeatriceC]

Yes. The ridiculous requirements from rescue groups have certainly become an issue, and not just for parrots, but for dogs and cats as well. A good friend of mine is ready for a new golden retriever after her beloved dog passed away several months ago. She has been denied from every singe rescue group within a four hour drive because she has a toddler. Never mind the fact that she had the same toddler before her old dog passed, and that thousands of good dog parents also have toddler, but just because some parents don't properly care for both canine and human, my friend is not allowed to adopt from any of these groups. I've heard stories of family after family after family being denied for the most insane reasons. I'd probably be denied if I admitted I've surrendered and animal before. You know why? I was homeless. Literally. I was living in my car with my kids and my dog and a spot opened up at a shelter, but I couldn't bring the dog. The choice was to surrender my dog or keep living in my car. But to many, that makes me a bad person. That was years ago and I still miss that dog.

So I do agree with you, probably on all counts. Rescues need to be less insane, and all of us need to talk to each other and find our common ground and work towards shutting down the mills.

 

[SilverSage]

The more open discussion and brainstorming we have, the better. For example if you have to take classes to adopt, why not make them online classes with quizzes?

If children are a concern, why not conduct an evaluation of the child and dog together, and have a trial period?


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[GaleriaGila]

What a moving and thought-provoking and educational thread. Thank you all. This place enriches me daily.
Sage, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that.