Any advice will help...fearful kids

[LEELU]

Hello everyone I'm brand new to this forum but have read alot through it so thank you. Okay a little backstory first. My IRN I hand fed from 2 weeks old. My kids were very young and didnt interact with her alot. YES I know 1st mistake. So my IRN also view me as her mate not a member of a flock. Yes 2nd mistake. Anyways she absolutely hates my children and will attack them. Even to the point of tricking them by chirping and flirting and then when they are in reach BAM!!! Bite and blood. So needless to say my kids are fearful of birds now. I have a rescue Quaker that they are warming up to but still alot of fear from my lil terrorist IRN. Tuesday I will be bringing home my B&G Macaw he is about 3 months old. My friend who breeds the birds has let me babysit them a few times and the kids were nervous at first but then started to understand not all birds are like my IRN. I was just wondering if you guys could throw some suggestions my way to help children overcome this fear. Please dont judge me but I'm having him clipped before he comes home only for his safety. I don't want the bird to fly to them and they move or run and cause the bird to crash. Plus that's how my IRN would get them, she would fly after them. So for the safety of the bird and to help my kids become more confident he will be grounded. I know that spending time and interaction is the best way for everyone but I'm open to suggestions or if anyone else had a similar problem like this. Kids are 6 and 13 years old. I had target training in mind as well as recall.
Just let me know if you think something could help kids overcome fear of this bird.
I appreciate you reading this.
LEELU

 

[ChristaNL]

at 3 months your macaw legally should be with his/her parents for at least 2 more/ but that was not the question.
(LOL and yes I am judging you- a babybird should be able to grow up learning to fly -- its what their bodies were meant for and not being able to fly will stunt his/her development, not only physically but also mentally and proabably socially: a bird that has no way of escaping a situation will learn to bite in selfdefense a lot quicker. Where they normally would flee a situation and come back when they are ready...they now have no choice but to face it/ that can sometimes be a good thing, but it can just as quick backfire and come back to bite you / in both meanings)
You already have one acting-out, agressive, bitey bird, what do you think that baby will learn to do?



What will you do with the IRN?
(My african grey divebombs my macaw so do not think you little helpless baby will not be targeted, especially since this IS a fragile not even eating by itself baby and your IRN is an hormonal, agressive adult with no qualm about attacking much larger flockmembers-> see children)


Actually for the sake of your children and that poor defenseless new baby: ditch the IRN!?
(Yes I understand you are bonded and that is great / and harsh to hear from me...but what do you think? That your IRN will all of a sudden become the motherly type and play nice?)
The IRN is NOT your child, this is now a fullgrown parrot who thinks he/she rules the nest and wants to have sex and babies with you-- so all the competition needs to flee.


Personally I would never have brought a large parrot in a house where kids are still afraid of a tiny-ish quaker, that is just lousy timing.

Not good for the children, not good for the new bird.


Why not spend a year or so retraining your IRN, and let your kids get comfortable with a nice & friendly other parrot (best case scenario: you take controll of the IRN and set it some limits and teach it not to attack and bite/ recalltraining for the adult IRN instead of an easily impressionable baby) instead of adding another bird to your socially (and emotionally) instable flock (parrots and humans).


It is a parrot, even if you've been together for 20 years you can *always* decide it is "day one" and start over.
Teach the old bird some manners!
(and never even let him near the others unsupervised--f.e. eyes do not grow back and are usually not repairable)

 

[GaleriaGila]

Oh, my goodness. I share Christa's worries and misgivings. You are brave and good-willed to come forth and ask for advice.

I'm frightened of the complications of a new macaw.

I, too, wonder if a complete re-start with the IRN might help, but I confess that I'm pessimistic.

Some birds, because of experience and/or genetics and/or life conditions (head injury, lead poisoning, e.g.) are difficult, and may never met an owner's expectations. That's the case with my bird. I just tolerate him, protect him, and love him. I don't do things that make him bite/attack/whatever. Personally, I have reduced biting to almost zero over the years I've spent with the Rickeybird... and a lot of that has involved compromise. I don't do stuff that gets me bitten. Some will say I have let him get away with too much, and that's a fair criticism, but, well... I'm okay with it. I don't do stuff that makes him mad... I don't touch others when he's out; I rarely try to get him to step up onto my hand first. Hand-held perch first, then hand. In some ways, I'm disappointed/embarassed at having such a little monster for a pet, but he is what he is. I ALWAYS wear my hair down when he's on my shoulder, so all he can bite is hair.

Anyway, it just might be that the IRN will remain your private demanding/needy/burdensome/beloved pet, as the Rb is mine. That has meant that there's no room in my life for another bird. This is where I worry about the macaw...

I wish you well. I wish the little IRN well. She loves you so much. I hope you find a solution.

And welcome to the Forums. I'm glad you joined.

 

[LEELU]

Thank you for your advice..they baby macaw is flying now with my friend. I know they need to learn to fly first before clipping. I didnt mention in the post that I have rehomed my IRN to the mother of my friend who has my Macaw. I currently only have the Quaker. The baby macaws have not been with the parents for months now, they are all handfed. Plus the parents have already laid 3 more fertile eggs. Like I said I have had the 3 babies for over night babysitting. My baby is very calm and gentle so the kids are a little more relaxed. I will not clip his wings ever again I just thought it would be safer for the bird and kids. If the bird say flew to them they would not catch him they would run or move leading to the bird crashing.
I was just wondering what type of games, training, ect. That could help them fear him less. I will say that are not as scared as they were with the IRN bc they have played with the babies.

 

[LEELU]

And even if I did try and retrain or work with the IRN, my kids would never trust her again. I have made the proper adjustments to my flock for the sake of both my birds and children. I'm in the process of rehoming the rescue Quaker. The only bird I will have will be the B&G.
But thanks for your input I appreciated it. I do have experience with birds I just made mistakes with my forst bird the IRN.

 

[Laurasea]

Awww you couldn't keep the quaker?
I too would support letting the baby fly longer for development, muscle and long term mental health of the parrot...
It's worrying to hear of lack of success with two parrots and then bringing home a macaw, who will live a long active loud and fondness for destruction of furniture, tv remotes, phones, drapes , wood trim and anything you value
Babies are always sweet, once they reach adulthood and go through puberty, they may have very firm ideas of who they like and don't like. I wish you much joy and success and happiness with your new one. I just urge lots of reading and preparing for such a big commitment. Read the archive and current active stories of macaw owners. And for balance try to read the bad stories, and frustrated stories to have a more complete view. The good and happy stories are great to, but as many get rehomed or passed in once they are adults , it's good to know that too.
Welcome to the forums.

 

[ChristaNL]

We all make mistakes (the only way to learn it seems).


Why not read this aloud with the children: http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/56384-big-beak-o-phobes-guide-understanding-macaw-beaks.html
You can actually read it to the baby as well.
Once is never enough.


Well if you are in luck your macaw and your children will all reach puberty (one ending, the other beginning) at roughly the same time... interesting times.
The good thing: by that time you all will know each other very well.


There are actually 'classes' you can take when it comes to birdhandling (its like puppy-training) in a lot of towns. Maybe you are lucky and there are some near you.
I've noticed myself it is waaay to easy to repeat the same mistakes/ behaviours with the next bird- we are all creatures of habbit so it is good to have a few close friends standing by.


(Not wanting to criticize again, but apart from training for vethandling etc., plze just touch the beak,face , head and upper neck of the bird / I see a small hand on the wing...that is sexual inuendo to the birds, don't start habbits when they are small and innocent, they get 'turned on' a lot younger than they should be by this and an hormonal bird is a difficult bird. Enjoy the easygoingness of a baby as long as you can, adolescense is going to be and interesting and challenging couple of years anyway...)

 

[EllenD]

I have to agree that clipping a 3 month-old baby Macaw is a terrible idea, because it's actually the opposite of safe. It's not what is best for the bird in any way, nor is it what is best for your kids. I know you think that it is, but that is actually counterintuitivve thinking, and a common misconception...

And we're not talking about the fact that the Macaw has already fully-Fledged...No, you cannot ever clip any baby parrot before they fully Fledge, because that results in terrible and permanent Neurological and Behavioral issues...But that has nothing to do with why clipping this baby Macaw, who has either just fully-weaned or isn't yet weaned and that you're going to have to finish hand-feeding (can't tell what the situation is there, you shouldn't bring him home until he's eating 100% solid food and you don't have to give any formula feedings at all)...Also, just a point, your friend who is the breeder, and who hopefully is not giving you an unweaned baby bird, also shouldn't be allowing her breeding-pair to breed again that quickly...It is not at all a good thing that "The parents have already laid 3 more fertile eggs"...That's not something to brag about, it's very unhealthy for them and can result in not only dead babies, but also a dead mother...But that's another issue that isn't your fault...Just make sure that your new baby Macaw is 100% fully-weaned and no longer needs any formula feedings before you bring him home...

***Now, as far as "grounding" your Macaw...What typically happens in exactly your situation where you have kids or adults who are scared of ALL birds, even very small parrots, so the owner decides to keep them clipped "for the bird's safety and the kid's safety", is that the new baby actually ends-up becoming extremely skittish and scared overall (regardless of the fact they were hand-raised), because they do not possess the ability to get away, and this results in an extremely aggressive bird. And that's probably how this is going to end up for you if you clip him at only 3 months old. Then there are the serious health issues that can result from clipping a baby bird so young, the most common being muscle atrophy, a total lack of "muscle-memory" developing, so that if you decide to let their feathers grow back in at some point in the future the bird actually never flies again because their muscles/body has forgotten how, simply because they were clipped so very young...And this is EXTREMELY COMMON in the larger parrots, specifically the Macaws and the larger Amazons...

***I totally agree that the answer to your problem isn't at all to clip your baby Macaw, but rather to expose your kids to a loving, friendly baby Macaw that can fly, so that your kids can understand what a loving, friendly relationship with a parrot actually can be...And how do you accomplish this? Well, you said it yourself: By having your kids, spcifically the 13 year-old, participate in actually Recall-Training your baby Bird from day #1...But you absolutely cannot Recall-Train a parrot who is clipped and cannot fly!!! Your kids not only need to be educated about parrots and their normal, common behaviors, personalities, intelligence, and their ability to be trained to do just about anything. But if you clip your 3-month old baby Macaw's wings out of "safety concernes", all that you're teaching your kids is that it's okay to put your bird's future health and well-being at risk in order to make them feel safer around the bird, which makes no sense at all.

Instead of clipping your Macaw at 3 months-old and not only putting his overall physical and pschological health at-risk, along with risking that he'll not be able to fly ever again in the future, but also taking away the trait that actually defines him as a bird, I would implore you to start doing both Target-Training and Recall-Training from the very first day you bring him home, and INVOLVE YOUR KIDS IN EVERY BIT OF THE TRAINING! This makes a lot more sense than clipping a 3 month-old baby Macaw, which will accomplish nothing at all...You don't even know if your Macaw is going to exhibit any behaviors that clipping his wings would help with, the main one being "dive-bombing" at people...But you have no idea if that will ever be an issue...So why in the world would you just have him clipped before you even get him home?

Something that is extremely important to consider as well, and that you probably aren't even aware of because you've only owned small parrots, is the fact that large parrots, specifically Macaws with their huge wingspan, don't even fly much inside at all anyway, because they know they don't have the room!!! They aren't at all like the smaller parrots who are able to fly all over the place and navigate around corners and such, they are typically on-foot most of the time anyway, with the bulk of their indoor-flying being during Recall-Training from perch to perch or person to person, which is extremely important for them to be able to do. So there is absolutely nothing that clipping his wings is going to accomplish...He can walk over and bite your kids on-foot much more quickly than he could fly to do it indoors due to his size and his wingspan...So instead of clipping his wings, which will only hurt him and not do ANYTHING at all to help him or your kids or anyone's safety, why not leave him fully-flighted so that he has the ability to participate in Recall-Training and other training exercises, and then INVOLVE YOUR KIDS IN HIS TRAINING, which will not only keep everyone safe, but is the best way for your kids to become educated about parrot behaviors (natural behaviors, not artificial behaviors that clipping a 3 months-old baby's wings will produce) and for them to also feel more and more safe and secure in handling birds over-time? There is nothing better to teach kids about natural parrot behaviors and psychology than teaching them to properly handle a flighted Macaw...And he is a hand-raised baby, so there is aa line of protection that this provides as well versus a parent-raised bird...

Just clipping your Macaw's wings before he even sets foot in your home is not going to help you at all, not going to help your kids progress in their parrot education or help them get over their fears, and it is only going to result in lots of future physical, psychological, neurological, and behavioral issues for your Macaw. And again, it's not going to do anything to make him or your kids safer, in-fact it will do the opposite because it will only cause your Macaw to be startled and afraid of everything himself, from properly balancing on perches, climbing things like his cage, stands/perches, and toys, and knowing that he can easily get away from any dangers, OR easily get to his other Flock-members (you and your kids) to protect them from any danger...And it also is going to severely limit you in the training you and your kids will be able to do, which is actually the absolutely best way to teach your kids to respect a flighted parrot, but at the same time not to fear them because they will know how to properly handle a flighted large parrot. Wing-clipping is not a cure for much, there are certain home situations that benefit from it, but this is not at all one of them. And the fact is that your Macaw is just far too young to take away his ability for fly, and I'm pretty sure that you'll be sorry that you did it in the future due to the damage it will do to both his physical and psychological health and well-being...

 

[BluenGold_Congo]

Giving away birds to get new birds should not be encouraged...partly sounds like you just wanted a bigger trophy and the other 2 birds got in the way which you didn't want to deal with.

What are you going to do when the B&G starts thinking for themself and decides they don't want to do what you want them to do? Give it away also? Do you realize that beak can crush the hardest nutshells without a problem (except macadamia takes some work)

Bigger birds bigger cage bigger problems bigger cost bigger sounds bigger mess bigger bite bigger commitment.

 

[itzjbean]

Please don't be that person who rehomes their birds to get new birds...it's just sad.

What happens when your macaw begins to mature and get hormonal? I'm afraid your pets will continue to be rehomed when they are not behaving how you want.

Please....PLEASE don't rehome any more birds. Our birds are like our children, I could never imagine giving them up for another one to replace it.

 

[LEELU]

Ok thank you all for the advice. I need to make one thing VERY CLEAR. I don't trade birds or whatever some of you said. I rescued the Quaker to help find him a home. I thinking of keeping him bc my daughter has bonded with him. Now the reason I rehomed my IRN was because she was not able to have the same life she used to have when she was younger..she was my shoulder bird and did everything with me hints the mistakes I made with touching and rubbing wrong areas. Anyways she was limited to her cage over half the day bc of my children. I felt she was not getting the proper attention she needed and was used too. So please dont judge me, I asked for help with how to help my kids understand and interact with the bird more. Jeez thought this was a safe place to ask and talk. Yes this is my first large bird, that's why I asked and explained that I know I made the mistakes. Just wanted help not judgment. But thanks for making a brand new member feel like ****. I'm not stupid I know about birds and have done as much research as possible. Thanks again to the people who helped. Never again.

 

[ChristaNL]

Plze....Don't be so touchy!

People are just voicing their concerns because they care (about the birds and about you and the children)- we all want this to work as much as possible.


You started your story with 3 birds... after while it was 1, then there were none...
thats is rather confusing for someone who does not know you at all.

Personally I do not understand why the quacker had to go- especially since that little birdy was helping at least one of the kids not to be afraid of birds (and better understanding them.) Since they were bonding you just deprived both of them of an important friendship and a great lifechanging experience.
Right now I do not understand the "why" of that, but maybe you had a great reason? I do not know.



You were brave to acknowledge that your first bird needed a better place because you could not controll the situation.
Can you also step over your anger at us to see that in this case "bigger is probably not better" ?

I know you've got your heart set on a macaw- a bird that has no problem completely removing fingers if so inclined- but you really, really need a choach, a second opinion person, a real human being looking over your shoulder to make sure the little mistakes do not creep back in to make this work!
Or (I am afraid) it will be a rehomer before the year is out.
You can ruin a baby-bird only once; you've learned a lot in your life, now make sure you can help this birdy grow into a chill, laid-back, well-balanced adult.
Or decide not to take on this project and adopt a mature one that is already "more settled" but just needs to be loved, wants to play with the kids and be happy.

 

[tfw]

All I can add is that my B&G was my first large bird. Rather than focusing on just training the bird, we put a huge emphasis on training the kids (and ourselves). We presented the kids with worse case scenarios (bird is capable of biting off your finger). We went over do's and don'ts while we researched and prepped for the bird. When the bird arrived, we made adjustments to what we learned based on the bird's personality. We let the bird teach us what he liked and didn't like. Kids weren't allowed alone with him for a while. Not until they got over the fear of his beak. And when they are interacting with the bird, we watch closely and explain every reaction that the bird does, so kids know why he is doing it, thereby removing fear of the unknown.

Granted, my kids are all teens. But everyone definitely needs to be trained, and certain rules followed so the bird doesn't get confused. It has worked out great for all of us.