Alexandrine laying her 2nd egg

[AME]

hello everyone
you may recall that my my female was a bit poorly last year,but shes doing very well now,and we know each other a little bit better..
Im writting as she has produced 2 perfectly formed eggs,the 2nd one earlier in the morning.
Now im still not sure as to the best thing to do when a single hen lays:leave her to sit,or remove them as soon as?
Opinion seems to be devided-remove them and boil them then return them for her to sit,or plain remove them?
i hope someone can give me fresh perspective on these ideas already mentioned,and the reasoning behind any new ideas on this subject
Thanks All

 

[weco]

Leave the eggs alone. If you remove eggs, many hens will replace them.....not good for the hen. Alexandrines will lay 2-4 eggs, one every other day and will incubate them for 20-24 days or, if they are infertile, may abandon them early.

There's no need to to boil the eggs...they will not be fertile unless the hen has been with a male.

 

[AME]

Leave the eggs alone. If you remove eggs, many hens will replace them.....not good for the hen. Alexandrines will lay 2-4 eggs, one every other day and will incubate them for 20-24 days or, if they are infertile, may abandon them early.

There's no need to to boil the eggs...they will not be fertile unless the hen has been with a male.

no boiling them is to stop them rotting...
so you mean she can tell that they are infertile at some stage?i presume this would happen sooner than later,as a trigger for survival/conserving energy in the wild?
also have you any 'special' food recommends at this time?
i have calcium supplement in her water and along with a sunflower mix,she will have celery/crunchy parts of salad/apple,orange and peanuts.
i really want to give her food in the form of pellets,but she's not interested,and altho she looks well and has really settled with me,i still cant help thinking that i could be doing more where diet is concerned.ive read that if theyve grown up with certain foods,it is hard to get them to try new things.
thanks for the reply,and any ideas you might wish to share will be much appreciated!

 

[MonicaMc]

Having dealt with cockatiels that are supposedly the worst offenders when it comes to chronic egg laying, as well as a budgie that was intent on having a large family, even though her eggs were never fertilized, this is what I tend to recommend.

• Remove Eggs
  • Rearrange the cage
  • Move the cage to a new location
  • Use a cage grate
  • Get a new cage/Use a different cage
  • 12-14 hours of complete darkness
  • Decrease calcium and protein within the diet (if she is on a high calcium & protein diet prior to laying eggs)
  • Remove anything that could be taken as a nest
  • Remove anything that could be used as nesting material
  • Don't allow her in any dark place or enclosed area
  • IMPORTANT: save the eggs in the fridge
  • If she lays more than 3-4 eggs, put them back in the cage
• Leave the Eggs
  • Leave the eggs alone in the cage
  • [Optional] Replace with fake eggs (prevent eggs from breaking)
  • Increase calcium
  • Let hen sit on eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them
  • Once done sitting, toss

As far as getting her onto a healthier diet, check out this thread. I would particularly recommend the "Pellet Mash", inspired by VetaFarm.

http://www.parrotforums.com/general-health-care/23367-converting-parrots-healthier-diet-tips.html

 

[weco]

You don't have to worry about the eggs rotting, unless you leave them in the nest for several months. Most hens will, at some point, realize that their eggs are not viable, whether from lack of heat from them, no movement in them, no sounds, or just mother's instinct, but at some point they will abandon them.....then you can remove & dispose of them...

In the wild hens may lay blanks, but that would be the fault of the male.....unlike in captivity, wild hens do not just up and lat eggs without serious male intervention.


While you should always feed companion birds a healthy, fresh & varied diet, about the only special foods you need to give a nesting hen, unless otherwise prescribed by a veterinarian, is calcium, which you are already offering her. There might be a problem with her consumption of or not of the calcium supplement as most birds refuse to drink tainted water, because it tastes different.....they may go as far as to dehydrate themselves, a serious condition for any bird, let alone a nesting hen. Unless a vet prescribes medicating a bird by mixing the medication in water (and then I would question that prescription) you should not mix anything in your bird's drinking water.....and.....on the out chance a vet does prescribe medicating the water, make sure fresh water is also available.

Salad is fine, celery is fine, but you either need to remove all strings from it or cut the stalks into half-inch pieces so the strings do not impact the crop. Apples & oranges are fine. peanuts are fine if they have been roasted & served without the shell, unless you re-roast them to at lease 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

Because birds are relatively small creatures, we get the idea that they are dainty, but rest assured, they are hardy animals, unless they are sick of coarse...we give them less credit than they are due.

Keep reading, but you may want to move your reading text to the last ten years or so, because there is a lot of out of date information around the internet, as well as a lot of misinformation and some information that is just plain wrong.....in many instances, common sense is a good route to follow.

 

[AME]

Thank you monica & weco for your thoughts,all worthy of topics to take a good look at,and yes,i do have to consider the AGE of certain written material,and much drivel in some posts,and at the end of the day i think common sense is the best thing!moniCa,i would of thought that moving/changing things around would be a bit stress inducing?and i maybe should have asked(apart from the well known)is what NOT to feed,not just at this time,but in general? having read a few more posts,i can see the logic in moving,changing things.her curiosity would indeed take her mind off the eggs,but this would be impractical and i tend to give her complete freedom,supervised of course,in one room,she is very clean using places where i put down paper for her,and shes stopped chewing things (door frames/picture frames!) i do like to tell myself that ive actually taught her that these behaviors are unacceptable,and ive plenty of wood 'games' instead.
i have a dog and they have taken to each other,but,as a typical female,she keeps him in his place and theres definitely a good bond of trust developing between them.
i will continue taking notice of any relevant (and not so,as i like birds in any case) topics,and i thank all for sharing their knowledge and viewpoints with me

 

[MonicaMc]

If you don't want a hen to lay and you remove the eggs, you *need* to change things up. If you keep things the same, you haven't changed anything, and she'll continue laying, replacing the eggs you've removed.


I have this thread for safe/unsafe foods. It's incomplete but may give you some ideas.

http://www.parrotforums.com/general...afe-fresh-foods-toxic-food-lists-sprouts.html


Some items, such as garlic, may be safe to feed in tiny amounts, but if you overdue it, and feed too much, you could kill your bird... therefore it's on the 'avoid' list.

 

[AME]

thanks but who in their right mind would feed garlic to a parrot/bird?!
are you serious?

 

[AME]

thanks for those diet list,i think im fairly confident with the diet,judging by the foods listed.there is one thing tho:you mention apple seeds (and yes i do know what they contain) but they are the first things she goes for! when i give her the 'core',she will demolish the flesh,just to get at them..and once shes finished,she does that 'purring' sound,and if im eating an apple,she will fly over and she cant wait for the core,or rater,the pips!they seem to be one of her favourite foods,maybe they are harmless to some?
she plainly enjojs them,i mean lots of birds eat them dont they? i obviously havnt ever offered her 'apple pips' its just something i noticed the first couple of times,and she knew where they were ,so shes not experimenting with them.
well ,i m gonna have to follow your advise about changing things around,even tho i cant help thinking that this would be slightly cruel,and would be really stressful to her.i meen,wont she just give up sitting on them after a few days??
have you any sources for these ideas that i can be persuaded that this is the right thing to do? im not doubting your ideas,but there are so many to choose from,and that is all they become -opinions.
i would like some feedback from alex owners to try and strike a balance between these differing opinions please? THANKS!

 

[MonicaMc]

Some people think that if they can consume it, so can their bird... this includes alcohol. And smoking.

It's hard to say about the apple seeds. I've also heard of other parrots who've eaten them for years. Different birds may have different sensitivities to things. And some things, when fed over a long period of time, the toxin slowly builds up in the system which may eventually lead to death. Not something I can recommend.



Since you are so unsure of changing things around, I would suggest just letting her sit on the eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them. After she stops, *THEN* you can change things around.

 

[AME]

you are quite right about the pips monicamc.toxin build up had me thinking about it last night,dont the macaus flock to red clay as it is thought it neutralises the toxins of some seeds they eat(i wonder how long it took this habit to evolve in the species?!?)but i think for now,i will not encourage this in the future,best to be safe than sorry.
also,when i fuss her she makes cooing sound(i really like the sound!) which i interpret as pleasure,but this has got me thinking:when i stroke her,am i actually triggering the start of her cycle,does she then see me as her partner in all this?are we bonding for companionship,can i be seen as 'friend' rather than her being stimulated into laying behaviour,by what she considers as 'courtship' behaviour from me!?
should i stop handling her as soon as her behavior changes in some way,and when is it likely?is this something in a timescale of months/weeks/or days do you think?is this a good thing for me to consider in the future?
THANKS monicamc

 

[MonicaMc]

Yes, macaws, amazons, pionus and conures have all been seen eating clay. It's full of minerals and thought to neutralize toxins that they eat.

It's recommended to *only* pet birds on the head, Anywhere else may lead to sexually enticing the birds...


I would recommend not touching her on her body, and if she starts asking to be mated with, either distract her or set her down and allow her to 'cool down'. It's hard to say how long the behavior will last because we can easily set them up to breed year round. Same food throughout the entire year. Same amount of light (artificial or not). Same temperature year round, etc. However, it is not healthy for them to be so hormonal all the time.

 

[AME]

sorry my reply is (what i replied much earlier didnt post)late,but i will heed your advice about the apple seeds as the build up of toxin is the concern..(funny he'how even the birds love the things that cause the most harm?!)
is it the macaws that detox on red clay cliffs? thats amazing to think that they actually know that the stones they eat are toxic AND found a cure as well!
im thinking:whenever i fuss SGP (sweet green pea)am i inadvertently causing her to go on an egg laying spree?
maybe at certain times i should not handle her?
i would like to learn how to be her friend rather than her 'partner' and there must be a fine line between the two,for any bird owner:mabe just not stroke her on the back,as this could be a trigger to mate?:i think im only giving her fuss only because i love her,but she might be having other ideas,if you see what i meen!
yes im going to let her sit it out..it will be interesting to see how long it will take her to work it out,if it is longer than say a week/.5,i will remove and change the situation..i will daily increase distractions and hopefully i can get her interested in other things.i think its worth a try this once,rather than go in all guns blaising,dont get me wrong,i do see the logic in it,but if removal causes them to re-lay,leaving her with them might get her to use her mothers instict,and 'know' when to give them up?
i hope you wont disapprove too much,but of course if this would be in anywy harmful and i mean psychologically as well as physically,i wont hesitate in changing my approach to the situation.
Thanks monicamc

 

[MonicaMc]

I don't encourage my hens to lay. If I can figure out the trigger to them laying, I change things up! Usually nothing drastic, just removing the triggers. Once I've done that, there might be one more egg, but the hens generally stop after that. I've never had a problem with a hen trying to replace eggs that I've removed - because I removed the triggers to laying.

I honestly don't know if it's best to allow them to sit on the eggs or not. Since you don't feel comfortable with that approach, I don't recommend removing the eggs. Simple as that.

The problem with removing eggs is that so many people remove the eggs but don't change/remove the triggers in egg laying. Think about if she were in the wild with a nest. She laid a clutch of eggs. One day, a snake gets into the nest and eats the eggs, then disappears. The nest is still there. She will lay to replace those eggs. However, if a forester were to come in and chop the tree down that had the nest in it, she would not be able to replace her eggs without finding a new nest.


Here's some articles that may be of help.

Site Name - Articles - Behavioral - Sex And The Psittacine
RP - Mating
Hormonal Parrot
The Laughing Parrot - Tips for dealing with hormonal birds

 

[AME]

thanks for those very interesting article links monicamc..exactly what i was looking for:the links between our behavior and the birds interpretation of it.
finding ways to love the bird without LOVING the bird,is a good way of describing it.
Now for some changes on my part!
thanks again!

 

[weco]

Apple seeds are on most toxic lists because they contain the cyanogenic glycoside, amygdalin, which when ingested creates cyanide, though in apple seeds it is a very small amount, so a few every now and then should not be harmful to your feathered friends

The pits and seeds of the apricot, bitter almond, cherry, cherry laurel, peach, pear, pin cherry, plum, nectarine, western choke cherry and wild black cherry contain enough amygdalin that you can taste it. That would be the bitter medicinal, almond like taste, if you’ve ever chewed one, which is not advisable. When researching information about apple seeds and parrots, the only reference that I could find regarding the amount of apple seeds needed to cause a serious problem was in reference to a 150# adult human and the estimation was that approximately one half (1/2) cup of crushed apple seeds would make the average human sick to the point of vomiting and cause diarrhea.

In a similar statement the Parrot University website of Hartman Aviary offers:

“It takes approximately 100 grams (1/2 cup – 600 seeds – ~ 6 seeds / apple) of crushed apple seeds to make a human ill. Even if you ate the seeds from many apples, or your Amazon sized bird ate 2 apples worth of seeds, one after another, the gut will easily detoxify these small quantities of cyanide as it was created.”

Hartman goes on to add:

“We have fed tens of thousands of apples, never removing one seed, and never having one sick bird.”

So, like most things concerning our companion parrots, do your research, discuss the topic with your veterinarian, if necessary, and make the decision that you feel is best for you and your flock.

Since we are discussing cyanide producing seeds, plants of the rosaceae family, of which the lima bean and cassava plant are members, flax, hydrangea, johnson grass, macadamia nuts and sorghum all contain cyanogenic glycosides that can release hydrogen cyanide when exposed to acid or the appropriate enzymes, however, proper cooking usually neutralizes the toxicity of the edible plants listed above.

According to Comprehensive Review In Toxicology For Emergency Clinicians, By Peter D. Bryson:

“There are at least 360 varieties of fruits and vegetables in 41 families that can yield hydrocyanic acid.”

 

[AME]

I can see that there are some very knowledgeable people in this forum,and that i can get sound advice here.
thanks for the in depth articles about various toxins weco,and i take in that every now and then is ok but then again ive never fed her apples specifically for the seeds,so i dont need to be overly concerned,shes not a cyanide addict just yet!!
also,not wishing to offend anyone..how exactly does a bird er...self pleasure his/herself?
and some owners encourage this and buy them toys??
this sounds a bit perverse if im honest..basically i wish absolutely no sexual relationship with a parrot,or anyother beasts for that matter:it sounds like abuse to my mind
surely you dont support this kind of behaviour?
ive never heard of anything like that,and find it quite shocking!
i dont even want to enter a 'search term' for it...!
hope someone can tell me different!??

 

[weco]

It’s not so much feeding apple seeds/pips for the seeds themselves as it is that some of the things that we are counseled to believe about our birds and/or the care of them is not always true, or in the case of apple seeds/pips there is more to the story. My intention in posting the extended info was not to counter someone else’s posting, but to offer supporting evidence rather than just posting that I allow my birds to eat them, instead of cutting them out.

A lot of the various food dangers are throwbacks from early aviculture and came from lists borrowed from information that can be traced back to the 40s & 50s when the health food industry began to take off. Reading through some of their old marketing sales pitches is often as funny as watching old Charlie Chaplin movies…..even today, there are a lot of sales pitches that are hard to believe. We are coached that avocados are deadly to parrots, yet the feral flocks of cherry-headed conures in California can be seen enjoying daily snacks from avocado trees & fruit…..don’t get me wrong, I believe there are toxins in a lot of things we eat and/or offer to our charges, but I much prefer to look deeper when I find conflicting information.

As to birds pleasuring themselves, yes, it is quite common & most every parrot steward will observe it in their birds at some point, unless of course the bird(s) is/are simply decorations for them…..males will rub themselves on stimulating items and/or toys and females often will let their tail feathers, backup against something & rub their vent.

A google search for ‘parrot masturbation’ will garner some 624,000 hits, from clinical data, to questions from owners, to youtube videos. I appreciate that you are not interested in that type of personal relationship with your feathered friend(s), but the fact remains that we humans interject ourselves into the lives of our parrots and become surrogate flock members to them…..with all that that may entail. When we learn the cycles, triggers & body language of our feathered friends, we can take measures to assuage stimulating behavior.



Enjoy your bird(s) and enjoy your new reading material.....probably didn't realize you'd be going back to school, did you?

 

[MonicaMc]

The information on apple seeds is quite interesting!

Being that there are different kinds of avocados, and birds having died after a single ingestion of avocado, that is not one fruit I can recommend feeding. It may be safe when the fruit is ripe, but become toxic shortly after. It can depend on the variety of avocado, or who knows what all else. Just not worth the risk. It's like alcohol. Yes, wild animals have been known to get drunk in the wild by eating fermented fruit, but that does not, in any way, make it safe to allow a pet to drink alcohol or consume fermented fruit. There is a thing known as alcohol poisoning, and yes, it can kill.


It's best to use caution until you can find research stating otherwise.



Anyway... as far as masturbation goes, well, hens have also been known to use food dishes and some medium and large species may even pull their tail feathers forward with one foot which puts pressure on the cloaca. I realize it's an awkward subject, but it's kind of hard to ignore when a bird is pleasuring themselves right in front of you! A few have even been known to "sit" on their tail feathers (tail feathers bent forward beneath them on top of the perch, between their legs).

Just because a hen masturbates and lays eggs doesn't, in any way, mean that she will accept a male. My first cockatiel, Casey, was hand raised from day one of hatching. She was an incubator baby. She recognizes other cockatiels as part of her flock, but has never accepted the interest of a male. She uses perches and dishes to pleasure herself with and she lays eggs. If a male were to show interest in her, she'd stop what she's doing and walk/fly off, leaving the poor male confused and bewildered. Since I have no interest in breeding, this is just fine by me!