Okay, let's talk ABV, PDD and Toe-tapping...

As some of you who are familiar with my history might guess, this thread is not an easy one for me to write. My beloved ekkie, Bixby, died early last year of PDD. Unbeknownst to me, he was born with the terrible disease (which is, for the most part, apparently only transmitted vertically, i.e. parent to child). It compromised his immune system and stunted his development (to the point where the black streaking of his beak, which had almost disappeared, actually grew back and took up nearly a third of his beak by the time he had passed at around 1.5 years old).

Why am I bringing this up now? And what could this possibly have to do with toe-tapping?

A few days ago, I noticed something slightly off with my girl Maya's movements. She was a little more hesitant with stepping up. Not, mind you, with her willingness to comply. It's actually something that someone who wasn't as deeply familiar with her as I am might not even have noticed. It was a fractional hesitation that bespoke some level of discomfort in her legs that she was trying valiantly to hide. And upon closer inspection, I noticed some raw areas on her feet, like they'd been itching and she was being a bit too vigorous with her beak. So I made an appointment with her avian vet.

The next night, she began to toe-tap.

Toe-tapping?!? Seriously?!? I just didn't understand. I don't free feed, but rather give two substantial meals of fresh chop everyday. The significance of this being I know exactly what she eats, every day. Neither of my birds wastes anything (unlike sweet Bixby, who was famous for tossing food EVERYWHERE!), and they finish all of their food. On top of this, I give them both a VERY varied and nutritionally complete diet.

The only other time there had been an episode of toe-tap was one day with Jolly, and I knew right away that it was due to a fruit combination I'd never done before. Raspberries and blueberries can apparently never occupy the same dish with him. But that was an anomaly. What was this?!?

Toe-tapping is almost always diet related, right? Either an excess of something, a deficiency in something else, or an allergy. Right?

Turns out, not always. Which is why I'm posting this thread, as painful as it is to consider.

Yesterday, the vet (a VERY knowledgeable avian vet named Dr. Kenneth Dazen) explained to me that the latest theory regarding toe-tapping is that it can have other possible causes as well. Specifically, it can be neurological in nature. You see, there are several strains of Avian Bornavirus (ABV). Either seven or nine. Only two of which can lead to the dreaded Proventricular Dilation Disease (PDD). PDD, btw, turns out to be something of a misnomer in some cases. PDD refers to a particular manifestation of this disease in which the proventriculus is dilated and food can no longer be digested and assimilated by the bird (as was the case with Bixby). That is when it attacks the autonomic nervous system.

But the disease can also attack the central or peripheral nervous systems as well. Bixby showed signs of all three. But early symptoms of a peripheral nervous system manifestation can include toe-tapping (and, I assume, wing-flipping as well, but I was honestly a bit too stricken by the potential ramifications to ask all the right questions.)

As you might imagine, this scared me half to death. It would kill me to have to watch my sweet Maya go through the hell that poor Bixby endured. The vet assured me, however, that it wasn't necessarily a situation that would go to that extreme. He actually has parrots that he has been treating with similar symptoms for over 20 years, now. Basically, a stressor (such as hormones or sickness) can trigger an ABV flare-up. When this happens, anti-inflammatories are given to bring down any swelling and relieve pain, managing the situation until the parrot gets past that particular episode.

He also surmised that Maya had been abrading her feet because she was feeling a tingling that was getting on her last nerve, hence the rawness. Now, we are still waiting for blood tests and such, so this isn't a definitive diagnosis, but he said that, considering the foods I'd listed, he seriously doubted it was anything even remotely diet-related. But he took blood, fecal smears, and swabs from the crop as well as far deeper into my poor birds than I'd have imagined. I'll hear the results by Wednesday.

He also explained that cases of stubborn toe-tapping, wherein a causative factor just could not be determined, might often be attributed to undiagnosed cases of ABV. And this is why I'm posting this thread, today. I've counseled so many of you on what the possible causes of your ekkie's toe-tapping and wing-flipping might have been, all the time unaware that there was another possible reason out there. For some of these ekkies, the answer might actually have been a need for a dose of anti-inflammatory meds. And it's important this is discovered and addressed early on in the manifestation stages.

Anyhow, for those of you who have trudged through this freakishly long post with me, thank you. And I hope this will be of some help to some who may have been searching for answers.

For now, Maya is on a full month regimen of antibiotics (to ensure the raw areas don't get infected), as well as two week courses each of anti-inflammatories and nerve pain relief meds. And the vet also prescribed a topical cream to soothe her raw patches. Please keep Maya in your prayers. As unlikely as it seems, I'm still hoping this might be a food allergy of sorts.

I can't imagine the emotional impact this is having. I'm so sorry you have to go through this - and Maya, too. She's so lucky to have you to take such good care of her. I hope this ends up being something simple and she gets through it quickly.

Oh so sorry to hear this and of course will keep Maya in my prayers and fingers crossed.

I am so sorry to hear about this happening to Maya. I hope anything she may have gets stopped in its tracks. You and your whole flock are in my thoughts.

Ive only been on the forum a short time but I have a tremendous respect for the moderators and members here for being such knowledgeable and caring bird owners. Your love for your birds shines through in your videos and your generosity in sharing your advice to others helps not only those asking, but those reading and learning (like me). It makes my heart hurt to know that you are going through this. I know it was painful to write, especially since it is so fresh and still unresolved, just know that we care and you have our heartfelt support.

Oh Stephen, that's really scary. I'm so sorry.

After reading a few quick articles on ABV, it's surprising that some 30% of birds are affected. That's a huge population, so it would make sense that more of our birds are afflicted than we know. It's also surprising that they only discovered the etiology of ABV eight years ago, so research is very young at this point.

It also sounds treatable before it manifests into anything worse, which is wonderful. Maya is in good hands with you being so attentive and proactive.

I wish for the very best for you and Maya.

Doc, I've been waiting with both hope and apprehension for this news. I can only imagine how you must be feeling right now and how painful it was to put it into words. Sharing your first person experience and knowledge is beyond generous of you, this information is so valuable.

I've long considered you an expert authority when it comes to eclectus diet. Maya and Jolly are so fortunate to have you and Aida as parronts. I am still hoping for the best possible news when you get the test results. I seldom say, life isn't fair, at my age it just sounds redundant but this whole thing is just insanely unfair. I know that facing any situation, you are always positive and proactive, Maya couldn't be in better hands. You are in my thoughts and I'm always here for you.

Stephen, I have not been able to get Maya, and you and your family, off my mind. I know how painful this post was for you, and I so respect that even when you are dealing with the terror of what might happen, that you are also thinking of others who could be dealing with this.
I agree with Allee, your diet for them is unparallelled, and I look to it often for Ekko.
Please know that Maya and your entire family are in my thoughts and prayers...and I know that Maya and Jolly could absolutely NOT be in better hands.

I am so sorry to hear he thinks it may be more serious.

You've been incredibly helpful and informative here and while this news isn't as simple as a diet-related problem, I'm glad there is a treatment protocol in place for Maya.

Can you share which medications they prescribed her?

I suffer from severe nerve pain in both legs due to my spinal injury, medication does little to alleviate the pain, and the pain is absolutely unbearable. I'm curious to see which drugs they've prescribed for her.

Sending positive thoughts and lots of love for sweet Maya.

Oh Stephen I am so sorry that you are having to endure this sort of worry again until Wednesday. You and your family are in my prayers for your sweet Maya. I am so sad to hear of the possibility, but I am keeping positive that it is from a far different reason.

This will no doubt be heavy on my mind as I wait for the results with you my friend. As you know, I too know about ABV/PDD first hand, so that I can most definitely sympathize with the worry you're going through every second while waiting for the test. To the readers out there, this disease isn't exclusive to Eclectus.

Thank you all so much! Your support means a lot to me. I'm still hoping that this isn't ABV at all, but even if not I'm hoping that the vet's relatively positive prognosis is spot on. Going through this with Bixby was tough.

Brittany, I'll check the name of the medications and post them for you when I go to give Maya her next dose.

Jules, the ABV tests commonly available still aren't very accurate, unfortunately. They can only detect ABV if the disease is actively shedding. Then, on top of that, it cannot differentiate between all the various strains of ABV. So testing positive might mean you have one of the relatively benign strains. Remember that only two are actually possible precursors to PDD.

There is a new test that is said to be far more accurate, but it is not yet commonly available from what I understand. Rather than attempting to detect the presence of ABV, it strives instead to detect body's specific response to the presence of the disease.

I don't have access to that test, however. So the blood tests and swabs will simply tell me if there's anything else wrong with her that might explain her issues rather than proving or disproving the presence of ABV.

And yes, thanks for pointing out that this disease isn't exclusive to eclectus parrots. In fact, the only reason that I put this thread in an ekkie specific forum is the toe-tapping aspect. If Maya's vet's theory is correct, it would mean there are any number of people trying to find a diet-related cause to their ekkie's toe-tapping issues where there is none. And worse, not acting to begin treatment for ABV as swiftly as they should.

Ive had birds die from this [and I know your fear. What Ive learned it doesnt matter where you get your birds from . I think of all my birds I have and they can be exposed and carriers to everything.Its when a stress occurs they can develop it [one way anyway]. My experience dont let your bird get chilled from their baths ,and dont go on long trips away from your birds. Im sorry that somethings not right with her. As bird people I think we are quick to pick right up on things that are "off ".

Thanks, Terri.

Yes. The thing of it is, the ABV strain apparently remains relatively benign until a certain catalyst triggers the transition to PDD (or the peripheral or central nervous system equivalents. I was a little too upset while at the vet's to remember the other names). This means that a bird can carry ABV for years without a problem, before the catalyst causes things to go crazy.

Scientists and researchers have been attempting to identify this catalyst for years, now. If they could find it, they could block it. They wouldn't need to neutralize the ABV. Without the catalyst, there would be no danger.

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Here we go, Brittany. The antibiotic is Enrofloxacin, the nerve pain medication is Gabapentin, and the anti-inflammatory is Celebrex.

Good news is that Maya does seem a little better, tonight. Her grip is stronger and more certain, though still not back to normal. And she hasn't been biting as much at her feet, today. Hopefully things will continue to improve, tomorrow.

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Stephen,

So sorry to hear Maya is not well, I hope it is something simple and easily treated. Whatever the issue, Maya couldn't find a better Parront to be with. You have identified a problem early, been proactive about it, and by the sounds of it, have an Avian Vet who is knowledgeable and on the cutting edge of treatment regarding eclectus parrots and toe tapping.

My thoughts are with you, I hope the test results give some insight.

Thank you for sharing the word about another possible area to look into regarding toe tapping.

Stephen, this is an emotionally draining turn of events for you and Maya. Thank you for sharing in such detail information that may potentially be life saving or enhancing for others in similar situations. I am hoping for the very best outcome for Maya. She is so fortunate to have you and a dedicated vet working so intently.

With a bit of good fortune some or all of her symptoms may be caused by food. As our nutrition becomes more modified and outsourced, it can be difficult to assure purity and lack of contamination by other crops or farm equipment.

Stephen, I am so glad that Maya seemed to be doing a bit better last night...how is she doing this morning? How are you holding up?

Stephen i'm just catching up to this. My heart is with you all going through this. I'm so glad she's feeling a bit better. Really hoping for some good news soon.

Thank you all so much. As always, you guys are the best.

Scott, contamination of her food by outside sources definitely occurred to me as well as a possible cause for her symptoms. I wash their chop thoroughly, but still. You never know. I've created a whole new batch, now, so if that truly is the case, hopefully it will be out of her system soon. (Though why would it only affect her and not Jolly? She's more sensitive, perhaps? Less likely, but I'm not dismissing anything at this point.)

Terr, she has seemed a bit better and stronger, today. I only saw the toe-tap movement once, today. In the morning. And she's cut down quite a bit on the foot and ankle gnawing. Also, she actually went up to her highest perch last night, which she'd taken to avoiding since this whole thing began. I think that's a good sign that her foot irritation is lessening.

She is getting a little tired of me applying the topical ointment to her feet and legs, but thus far she has not gone all ginsu on me. Great restraint on her part. She also gave me a bit of trouble today with one of the medications, but she eventually came around. I hope she doesn't make a habit of it, as I'd hate to have to start forcing her. (Speaking of the medication, I misspoke before. The antibiotic medication is the two week course, and the nerve and anti-inflammatory meds are for 30 days. I'd said it the other way around in my first post.)

Anyhow, here's a pic of Miss Maya. She obviously felt as though she had some catching up to do on her preening.

Stephen, you know how much I am hoping that Maya's improvement is a sign that 'nothing' is really wrong. I'm glad that she is showing restraint with not 'going Ginsu' on you LOL. I still laugh about your analogy to Ginsu knives!

I'm thinking that maybe with the medicine healing her foot symptoms, it was something external all along? An allergy to something perhaps?