Zupreme Nut Blend? Vet Recommended.

[Caitnah]

Yesterday, I brought my 6 year old Conure home from a checkup at the Cornell University Avian Specialists. Cant go wrong for taking him to THAT type of institute.
They did a complete work up on him including blood & ex-rays. Obviously his entire history was discussed especially diet.
My Conure eats a seed combo from VitaMix (no sunflower but safflower) and fresh fruits/vegs. He used to eat some pellets but doesn’t any longer.
The Vet wants to reduce his seed (eventually) to maybe 2 tsps per day and get him to eat pellets again. Although I mentioned this seed mix seems good with vitamins, she somewhat agreed but felt that he probably isn’t eating too much of those items and mainly eating the safflowers…which he does.
She recommended Zupreme Nut Blend Pellets (which she feeds to her Pionus) but after looking at the ingredients, sugar seems to be high as well as Soy.
Am surprised she would recommend a product like that unless she feels he may like this flavor as a way of getting him back to pellets.
Anyone use this product?

 

[DonnaBudgie]

Yesterday, I brought my 6 year old Conure home from a checkup at the Cornell University Avian Specialists. Cant go wrong for taking him to THAT type of institute.
They did a complete work up on him including blood & ex-rays. Obviously his entire history was discussed especially diet.
My Conure eats a seed combo from VitaMix (no sunflower but safflower) and fresh fruits/vegs. He used to eat some pellets but doesn’t any longer.
The Vet wants to reduce his seed (eventually) to maybe 2 tsps per day and get him to eat pellets again. Although I mentioned this seed mix seems good with vitamins, she somewhat agreed but felt that he probably isn’t eating too much of those items and mainly eating the safflowers…which he does.
She recommended Zupreme Nut Blend Pellets (which she feeds to her Pionus) but after looking at the ingredients, sugar seems to be high as well as Soy.
Am surprised she would recommend a product like that unless she feels he may like this flavor as a way of getting him back to pellets.
Anyone use this product?

No, but I would certainly trust the opinion of an avian vet from Cornell above almost anyone else! I'd call and ask her about your concerns with soy and sugars. I'd love to hear more about your experience at Cornell and the results of your conure's tests. How much did they charge for this work up?

 

[Caitnah]

No, but I would certainly trust the opinion of an avian vet from Cornell above almost anyone else! I'd call and ask her about your concerns with soy and sugars. I'd love to hear more about your experience at Cornell and the results of your conure's tests. How much did they charge for this work up?

It was a battery of tests since my Conure sometimes has seizures. The only test that wasn’t done was cholesterol/triglycerides since they would need more blood. He had to be sedated twice for these tests and you could hear him scream out when they needled him…broke my heart.
Anyway, it was $700 and had to be paid in full. This required ME to be sedated.
They said he was overweight due to VitaMix diet and we are still waiting for a specific toxicology test that they have to send to Ohio and will take two weeks.
I was very impressed with the care they gave. It was about 6 hours and the Drs. talked with me for at least 1/2 hour.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

It was a battery of tests since my Conure sometimes has seizures. The only test that wasn’t done was cholesterol/triglycerides since they would need more blood. He had to be sedated twice for these tests and you could hear him scream out when they needled him…broke my heart.
Anyway, it was $700 and had to be paid in full. This required ME to be sedated.
They said he was overweight due to VitaMix diet and we are still waiting for a specific toxicology test that they have to send to Ohio and will take two weeks.
I was very impressed with the care they gave. It was about 6 hours and the Drs. talked with me for at least 1/2 hour.

I wish I lived close enough to Cornell to use their avian vets but I think the sticker shock would give me a few heart attacks, make me need sedation and I would scream out, too! But as a devoted BirdMom I would probably do it anyway.

I know some people have issues in general with soy even in moderation and I'm not sure why as long as it's organic. It's an excellent source of complete plant protein. That's why I like Harrisons- most of its ingredients are organic. Even sugar in moderation wouldn't bother me much.
Are you going to call her about these ingredients in the nut blend pellets?

 

[Caitnah]

I wish I lived close enough to Cornell to use their avian vets but I think the sticker shock would give me a few heart attacks, make me need sedation and I would scream out, too! But as a devoted BirdMom I would probably do it anyway.

I know some people have issues in general with soy even in moderation and I'm not sure why as long as it's organic. It's an excellent source of complete plant protein. That's why I like Harrisons- most of its ingredients are organic. Even sugar in moderation wouldn't bother me much.
Are you going to call her about these ingredients in the nut blend pellets?

Yes, will call her this morning and post what she says. I’ve tried him in Harrison’s a few years ago and he wouldn’t eat it. Am so confused on proper pellets and it’s also difficult to try different brands due to cost.

 

[texsize]

I give all my flock the nut blend pellets (large size even for the Tiels).
They all eat it to a greater or lesser degree.
I tried other pellets but as I say most of the flock like it.
It can lead to some slightly disturbing looking poops.
Bella I think eats it the most and her evacuations can be very brown to the point of resembling old/dried blood.

I have heard it said here on the PF.
The best pellet for your bird is the one it will eat.
OR.
The healthiest pellet left uneaten does a bird no good.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

Yes, will call her this morning and post what she says. I’ve tried him in Harrison’s a few years ago and he wouldn’t eat it. Am so confused on proper pellets and it’s also difficult to try different brands due to cost.

No kidding! The most expensive are the ones they won't eat! Too bad they don't make inexpensive sample packs for people to find pellets their bird will eat! I see that Zupreem makes several different pellets sizes fit their nut blend from smaller birds to big parrots. They make many other types of pellets with other more interesting ingredients like veggies. I hope your conure will eat pellets now after eating a seed blend. Might be tough unless he sees you eating them (ewww!).

 

[chris-md]

I wish I lived close enough to Cornell to use their avian vets but I think the sticker shock would give me a few heart attacks, make me need sedation and I would scream out, too! But as a devoted BirdMom I would probably do it anyway.

I know some people have issues in general with soy even in moderation and I'm not sure why as long as it's organic. It's an excellent source of complete plant protein. That's why I like Harrisons- most of its ingredients are organic. Even sugar in moderation wouldn't bother me much.
Are you going to call her about these ingredients in the nut blend pellets?

To understand soy, start here: estrogen is what brings our parrots into hormonal behaviors, male, and female.

Soy, while yes a source of complete plant protein, is also a very well known source of phytoestrogens. If you know, you know. If you don’t: they mimic estrogen functions in the body.

So many of us have problems with soy , because it can be very triggering for hormonal behaviors. Along with all the extra sugar, they load into pellets, such as these.

 

[hiriki]

So, don't take this the wrong way like I'm saying she shouldn't be trusted--I don't think that's the case at all--but Zupreem 100% partners with and sponsors vet clinics, so it's very possible she suggested Zupreem because she gets kick backs. I don't know about their nut blend, but I've used Zupreem in the past as a transitional pellet... I used the "fruit" pellets because the dyes really helped make the pellets more appealing to my birds. Now they're all on Lafeber which I think is a better brand overall.

The way my vet puts it, most pellets are pet food companies, but he likes Harrison's and Lafeber best because they have avian vets on staff.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

To understand soy, start here: estrogen is what brings our parrots into hormonal behaviors, male, and female.

Soy, while yes a source of complete plant protein, is also a very well known source of phytoestrogens. If you know, you know. If you don’t: they mimic estrogen functions in the body.

So many of us have problems with soy , because it can be very triggering for hormonal behaviors. Along with all the extra sugar, they load into pellets, such as these.

I am aware of all this but don't really believe phytoestrogens in the amounts found in any parrot food (or human food) have a clinically significant effect on parrots (or humans or human infants fed soy formulas), but I will research it some more.
A lot of other vegetables have phytoestrogens including grains, seeds, some vegetables and some fruits (see list on Wikipedia).
Sugar (sucrose), cane sugar, is a simple carbohydrate, a disaccharide with fructose and glucose. No worse than other "sugars" in moderation because all sugars are broken down into glucose before being used by cells for energy.
A surprising number of parrot pellet ingredients other than soy also contain phytoestrogens. Hard to avoid them when eating a plant based diet.
The issue I have with soy is more related to the somewhat complicated series of events by Monsanto (of Round-Up infamy) that led up to Round-Up (potentially harmful to humans) being found in soybeans genetically modified by Monsanto to survive treatment by its own herbicide Round-Up. Very clever, Monsanto.
I'd prefer to use organic soy products for this reason and never use Round-Up on my property because a strong salt and vinegar solution is a very effective, non-toxic (to animal life), safe alternative.
I believe it's always good for a scientist like myself to be on open-minded skeptic of all things scientific and pseudoscientific.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

I am aware of all this but don't really believe phytoestrogens in the amounts found in any parrot food (or human food) have a clinically significant effect on parrots (or humans or human infants fed soy formulas), but I will research it some more.
A lot of other vegetables have phytoestrogens including grains, seeds, some vegetables and some fruits (see list on Wikipedia).
Sugar (sucrose), cane sugar, is a simple carbohydrate, a disaccharide with fructose and glucose. No worse than other "sugars" in moderation because all sugars are broken down into glucose before being used by cells for energy.
A surprising number of parrot pellet ingredients other than soy also contain phytoestrogens. Hard to avoid them when eating a plant based diet.
The issue I have with soy is more related to the somewhat complicated series of events by Monsanto (of Round-Up infamy) that led up to Round-Up (potentially harmful to humans) being found in soybeans genetically modified by Monsanto to survive treatment by its own herbicide Round-Up. Very clever, Monsanto.
I'd prefer to use organic soy products for this reason and never use Round-Up on my property because a strong salt and vinegar solution is a very effective, non-toxic (to animal life), safe alternative.
I believe it's always good for a scientist like myself to be on open-minded skeptic of all things scientific and pseudoscientific.

Does soy trigger hormonal behaviors in humans? What kind of hormonal behaviors? In men or women? Very curious because I have never heard this before.

 

[hiriki]

As a vegetarian I have been keyed into the soy phytoestrogen debate for a while, since it came up a LOT in discussions of meat substitutes becoming more mainstream, like Beyond and Impossible (which is a bit ironic because Beyond is soy free!)

It has struck me as being overblown, at least in terms of its impact on people. Anecdotally, I've been a vegetarian and eating processed soy heavy foods for a decade and it has never had any impact on the regularity of my cycle. But birds are much smaller and digest food differently, and hormones are one of the main issues that parrot owners struggle with, so I don't know.

 

[Jcas]

Soy Intake and Hormonal Health Complications - Health & Human Development | Montana State University

www.montana.edu

This article is a bit of a long read but had some good information about the effects of soy on humans and lab animals. Since there are no large, long term studies that have been done on soy, the conclusion is essentially that we don’t know. Some small studies suggest that high amounts of soy can cause low fertility in males and contribute to breast cancer or hypothyroidism in females. Other studies find no such link. What all of these studies do seem to show is that humans and animals are individuals and everyone seems to respond to and process soy differently. As I have said before, we need to figure out what works best for us and our pets. To the OP, I don’t think it would do any harm to try the feeding your bird these pellets and if he shows hormone or other health issues, stop feeding the pellets. Best of luck!

 

[Jcas]

It was a battery of tests since my Conure sometimes has seizures. The only test that wasn’t done was cholesterol/triglycerides since they would need more blood. He had to be sedated twice for these tests and you could hear him scream out when they needled him…broke my heart.
Anyway, it was $700 and had to be paid in full. This required ME to be sedated.
They said he was overweight due to VitaMix diet and we are still waiting for a specific toxicology test that they have to send to Ohio and will take two weeks.
I was very impressed with the care they gave. It was about 6 hours and the Drs. talked with me for at least 1/2 hour.

I’m curious to know what you find out about the occasional seizures as I’ve been dealing with this in my Quaker. It’s great that the vet spent so much time with you! That seems so rare anymore.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

As a vegetarian I have been keyed into the soy phytoestrogen debate for a while, since it came up a LOT in discussions of meat substitutes becoming more mainstream, like Beyond and Impossible (which is a bit ironic because Beyond is soy free!)

It has struck me as being overblown, at least in terms of its impact on people. Anecdotally, I've been a vegetarian and eating processed soy heavy foods for a decade and it has never had any impact on the regularity of my cycle. But birds are much smaller and digest food differently, and hormones are one of the main issues that parrot owners struggle with, so I don't know.

I don't think anyone really knows what effect dietary phytoestrogens have on parrots' reproductive systems. The detailed Wikipedia article I read gave a long list of plant based foods that are known to contain phytoestrogens and it would seem almost impossible for a parrot owner to feed a diet free of or low in them. And most parrots in the wild would seem to be consuming them naturally.
We don't really know what a pet parrot's behavior would be like if they were a diet free from or low in phytoestrogens. When a parrot reaches sexual maturity, the predominant sex hormones are those produced by the bird's own body. A sexually immature young parrot is seldom said to be acting hormonal even if fed a diet high in phytoestrogens (see list on Wikipedia article on phytoestrogens). Their behavior doesn't seem to change until puberty hits regardless of their diet.

 

[chris-md]

I am aware of all this but don't really believe phytoestrogens in the amounts found in any parrot food (or human food) have a clinically significant effect on parrots (or humans or human infants fed soy formulas), but I will research it some more.
A lot of other vegetables have phytoestrogens including grains, seeds, some vegetables and some fruits (see list on Wikipedia).
Sugar (sucrose), cane sugar, is a simple carbohydrate, a disaccharide with fructose and glucose. No worse than other "sugars" in moderation because all sugars are broken down into glucose before being used by cells for energy.
A surprising number of parrot pellet ingredients other than soy also contain phytoestrogens. Hard to avoid them when eating a plant based diet.
The issue I have with soy is more related to the somewhat complicated series of events by Monsanto (of Round-Up infamy) that led up to Round-Up (potentially harmful to humans) being found in soybeans genetically modified by Monsanto to survive treatment by its own herbicide Round-Up. Very clever, Monsanto.
I'd prefer to use organic soy products for this reason and never use Round-Up on my property because a strong salt and vinegar solution is a very effective, non-toxic (to animal life), safe alternative.
I believe it's always good for a scientist like myself to be on open-minded skeptic of all things scientific and pseudoscientific.

Just do a bit of research. The effects on parrot hormones are well known. Plenty of people have personally observed issues with it, especially those of us who have to engage in active hormone management within our species.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

Just do a bit of research. The effects on parrot hormones are well known. Plenty of people have personally observed issues with it, especially those of us who have to engage in active hormone management within our species.

Are you talking about the human species?

Do phytoestrogens effect the hormones of a juvenile parrot?

 

[Caitnah]

I’m curious to know what you find out about the occasional seizures as I’ve been dealing with this in my Quaker. It’s great that the vet spent so much time with you! That seems so rare anymore.

I wrote a post on this months ago. What happens is that when he is out of his cage and gets startled, he flies around the room a few times, lands and acts drunk for a couple minutes. It’s as if he doesn’t know where he is. He stumbles and is very un-steady. Then he snaps out if it. When he flies around from not being startled, he doesn’t have this issue…only when startled.
Vet feels it could be a heart problem or possibly epilepsy.

 

[texsize]

I wrote a post on this months ago. What happens is that when he is out of his cage and gets startled, he flies around the room a few times, lands and acts drunk for a couple minutes. It’s as if he doesn’t know where he is. He stumbles and is very un-steady. Then he snaps out if it. When he flies around from not being startled, he doesn’t have this issue…only when startled.
Vet feels it could be a heart problem or possibly epilepsy.

That sounds very strange.
after one of his startled flights, when he lands, is it a planed for landing or is it more of a crash landing?
I don’t see epilepsy as a likely explanation.
epilepsy is a non-coordinated firing of the brain synapses and I doubt it could cause coordinated flight.
But I admit I got no better explanation for his behavior.

 

[Caitnah]

That sounds very strange.
after one of his startled flights, when he lands, is it a planed for landing or is it more of a crash landing?
I don’t see epilepsy as a likely explanation.
epilepsy is a non-coordinated firing of the brain synapses and I doubt it could cause coordinated flight.
But I admit I got no better explanation for his behavior.

Thanks for the reply…it is a definite planned landing. About 5” after the landing the trauma starts. It gets worse for the next minute and then starts to subside. Within 3’ or so it’s over and he is fine. Of course, as it is happening I hold him. When getting him off the perch he definitely knows I’m there but stutters to get onto my hand.