When do BFA's stop growing?

[clayman]

Hi guys,

I received the parrot training book by Michael Sazhin recently and started reading it. In it, Michael suggests to closely manage food portions to prevent overfeeding and essentially suggests that the parrot should be fed twice a day to mimic their feeding schedule in the wild. The exceptions are either extremely old or extremely young parrots, who should have continuous access to food.

Now, my two BFA ladies have reached the fifth month of age and as of this past Monday, I have started slowly incorporating this stricter food portion management into their daily routine. However, I am not entirely sure if my parrots are old enough to have their caloric intake limited like this. I used to weigh them about once a week starting one week after I got them three months ago, and it seems that their weight stopped rising significantly some time ago, although still goes up a couple of grams occasionally. I get the feeling that is in fact because I have been overfeeding them, though. Since I started this transition from freefeeding to more controlled feeding a few days ago, I weigh them daily to make sure there is no sudden weight loss, but everything appears to be fine and their weight is stable.

Based on your experience, when do you think do BFA's stop gaining weight because of growing? And also, what is the usual weight interval for BFA's? I have seen values ranging from 270g to 520g, which is kind of a stretch IMO. A friend of mine told me that, according to a book about parrots, another estimate ranges from 350g - 400g, which seems more probable to me, but I have not seen any authoritative values.

We are actually having the first avian vet appointment next Thursday, so I am going to discuss these things with her, but I would like to get more opinions from you guys.

Any insight is more than welcome. Thanks!

Save​

 

[Kiwibird]

Welcome.

The general consensus of the bird community is that starvation diets are not an appropriate way to encourage your bird to do tricks. Try training before meals instead, so they are still hungry and motivated to train at the time, but are still meeting all nutritional requirements. If you have any questions about this matter, consult your avian vet. I would keep free-feeding until at least a year old, then slowly convert to a 2X a day feeding schedule (with foraging activities during the day as snacks). Juvenile amazons are very active (they tend to mellow out after puberty) and burn through calories quickly. Even then, I would manage portions in such a way your bird maintains a HEALTHY weight and is getting the right foods, not manage portions to make your bird underweight so they are desperate to do anything to get food. My blue front is a pig, he would eat nothing but garbage food if allowed. He is fed twice a day so he will be hungry enough at feeding times to eat the nutritious foods he's given in appropriate sized portions to remain a healthy weight. Training sessions are done before meals (usually the evening) so he's motivated to work for treats, but we keep training sessions brief so he doesn't fill up on treats and will still be hungry for his full meal afterwards. Be aware, most AV's frown upon 2X daily feedings and strongly support free feeding.

The huge variance in weight has to do with the fact there are 2 subspecies of blue front amazons, one being much smaller than the other and plenty of interbreeding between the 2 subspecies. It yields a wide range of sizes. My BFA is an adult (18 years old) male of the a. xanthopteryx subspecies and weighs 420 grams. An adult male of the a. aestiva subspecies could be much smaller and weigh on par with smaller amazon species in the high 200's-mid 300s range. If you post some pics of your BFA and his weight we may be able to help you determine which subspecies he might be so you can get a better picture of what weight range he should fall into as he grows. Your AV can help determine a good target weight for your bird as an individual.

Edit: I see you have 2 female blue fronts. Females amazons tend to be a little heavier than males. Also, I see you are in Europe. For some reason, the a.aestiva's seem to be a little more common over there from what I've gathered on this forum

 

[SailBoat]

Great information provided in the above Post!

Since you did not say; what are you feeding your BFA ladies?

Diet is an evolving subject and not everyone agrees with what a health diet should consist of. Most of the Amazon owner here (but not all) are supporting a diet that represents the majority being fresh foods with a smaller percentage representing dry foods.

Portion Management is a term commonly used as part of 100% pellet diet. This commonly is based around a give weight of pellets provide in the morning and a like amount provided in the late afternoon /evening. A managed diet only works with captive Parrots that are living with limited activities. Your Amazons are way to young for that kind of life style!

IMHO, with your older 'babies' (5 months old) they are too young to be cutting back their diet. They should be mid to active flyers or should at least be in the process of learning to fly. The Flight Muscles are huge and demand large amounts of energy.

 

[henpecked]

Welcome to the forum. Your choice of following Micheal is a mistake. He's not about parrot health. Only training. Unless your goal is training parrots to "perform" , throw his advice in the trash can. BFAs should be at adult weight at about 1 year of age. Males will gain about 10% body weight when mature (8-10 years) and hormonal (breeding season). Much also depends on the birds activity, flighted or not. Young birds are generally much more active and burn more calories. Healthy weight is best determined by feeling the breast area of a parrot. I free feed all of my many,many zons . Micheal knows nothing about wild parrots, many of my pet and breeder birds I removed from wild nest, after studying their habits for many years. Yes, by all means weigh your birds on a regular schedule. Weight is best control by what you feed , not how much or when.
.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Yes.

What above posters said!

I'm glad you're here with us.

 

[Kiwibird]

Great information provided in the above Post!


Portion Management is a term commonly used as part of 100% pellet diet. This commonly is based around a give weight of pellets provide in the morning and a like amount provided in the late afternoon /evening. A managed diet only works with captive Parrots that are living with limited activities. Your Amazons are way to young for that kind of life style!

Should probably clarify on my earlier comment that when I portion Kiwi's food, it is a matter of I've learned how much he actually eats over time and I like to make sure certain types of food that should be limited are limited. I give him a little more than I know he'll eat of fresh produce and his beans/grains mix, but also try not to waste food by giving him a huge dish full of food that will go mostly uneaten. Parrots are pretty small creatures and a healthy/filling portion for a 420 gram bird is simply not that much food. The only thing that is portioned for weight management is othings like nuts, seeds and treats. He doesn't get tons of those because fatty foods only need to make up a small portion of a parrots diet.

 

[clayman]

Thank you all for your informative responses. I certainly do not want to starve my parrots, but I would like to train them at least on minimal basis, so that they do not misbehave and grow stubborn when they reach their maturity in a couple of years. In general, I would like to be able to achieve what Kiwibird described, i.e. make them a little hungry before mealtime so that they are more receptive to treat-based training. I believe that was Michael's goal as well, from what I have gathered from the book.

Anyway, as for their diet, I feed Versele-Laga Nutribird Tropical pellets with a spoonful of Versele-Laga Prestige Loro Parque seed mix in the morning. They do love the pellets -- more than the seeds, which is good. Tia, the younger one, is a real gobbler and usually rushes to the bowl to eat out all the sunflower and pumpkin seeds. Thankfully, there are not many in the mix, but she is often so fast that she leaves almost none of them to Ori, who does not seem very interested in them somehow. I may have to remove these seeds and feed them separately, or maybe use them as treats in addition to what I currently use.

I used to offer a bowl of a mix of veggies and fruits in the morning too, but of course, the ladies got picky and only ate what they liked best and did not seem very interested in eating the healthier stuff, like carrots or the leafy veggies. I usually ended up throwing much of that out in the afternoon so now I offer them in the evening instead. They are much less picky then.

My parrots are flighted (I am not a supporter of clipping) and avid climbers and chewers. On weekdays, I let them out of the cage twice a day (in the morning for about 20-30 minutes to stretch their muscles) and in the afternoon for at least an hour (usually about two hours), and on weekends that time usually roughly doubles. I try to let them out at different times so they do not demand getting let out at certain times. When they are out, they are free to mess around on their bird tree where they have toys, or climb on their aviary.

As for their species and weight, they are indeed of the Aestiva subspecies so they should be on the smaller side of the size spectrum. As for females being larger than males, that was a bit of a surprise for me. I thought it was the opposite. In my case, after the last weighing this morning, Tia weighs 356g and Ori is 320g. Tia has always been the heavier one, but, as I said above, she definitely loves to eat and when I hung rattan balls with various treats inside them (star anise seeds, chilli peppers, and goji berries) on their tree, she would go from one ball to another and keep ripping them apart to get to what was inside. I had to remove them eventually because she just would not stop. Both have their keel bone very well palpable and pronounced, though, so I guess their weight is still okay, but I will be sure to talk to the vet about this next week.

Thanks very much again for all your input. I will be sure to share with you what I learn from the vet.

Save​

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

"Grow stubborn".. That'll NEVER happen!


Jim

 

[SailBoat]

Thank you all for your informative responses. I certainly do not want to starve my parrots, but I would like to train them at least on minimal basis, so that they do not misbehave and grow stubborn when they reach their maturity in a couple of years. In general, I would like to be able to achieve what Kiwibird described, i.e. make them a little hungry before mealtime so that they are more receptive to treat-based training. I believe that was Michael's goal as well, from what I have gathered from the book.

Anyway, as for their diet, I feed Versele-Laga Nutribird Tropical pellets with a spoonful of Versele-Laga Prestige Loro Parque seed mix in the morning. They do love the pellets -- more than the seeds, which is good. Tia, the younger one, is a real gobbler and usually rushes to the bowl to eat out all the sunflower and pumpkin seeds. Thankfully, there are not many in the mix, but she is often so fast that she leaves almost none of them to Ori, who does not seem very interested in them somehow. I may have to remove these seeds and feed them separately, or maybe use them as treats in addition to what I currently use.

I used to offer a bowl of a mix of veggies and fruits in the morning too, but of course, the ladies got picky and only ate what they liked best and did not seem very interested in eating the healthier stuff, like carrots or the leafy veggies. I usually ended up throwing much of that out in the afternoon so now I offer them in the evening instead. They are much less picky then.

My parrots are flighted (I am not a supporter of clipping) and avid climbers and chewers. On weekdays, I let them out of the cage twice a day (in the morning for about 20-30 minutes to stretch their muscles) and in the afternoon for at least an hour (usually about two hours), and on weekends that time usually roughly doubles. I try to let them out at different times so they do not demand getting let out at certain times. When they are out, they are free to mess around on their bird tree where they have toys, or climb on their aviary.

As for their species and weight, they are indeed of the Aestiva subspecies so they should be on the smaller side of the size spectrum. As for females being larger than males, that was a bit of a surprise for me. I thought it was the opposite. In my case, after the last weighing this morning, Tia weighs 356g and Ori is 320g. Tia has always been the heavier one, but, as I said above, she definitely loves to eat and when I hung rattan balls with various treats inside them (star anise seeds, chilli peppers, and goji berries) on their tree, she would go from one ball to another and keep ripping them apart to get to what was inside. I had to remove them eventually because she just would not stop. Both have their keel bone very well palpable and pronounced, though, so I guess their weight is still okay, but I will be sure to talk to the vet about this next week.

Thanks very much again for all your input. I will be sure to share with you what I learn from the vet.

Save​

One of the problems of having two Parrots eating from the same bowl or separate bowls near each other is that the dominate one will grab all the 'goods' and the other will get little or none. Things will be much better if you separate them during feeding time to assure that each is getting a balanced diet. In addition, it allows you to better understand what and how much each is eating. This is important, because one of the early indicators of a health problem is not eating as much.

Remove the much liked items, like the Sunflower seed and provide that as the treat during training. As stated, training would be before the early evening meal. This way, they are interested in the training and you are controlling the amount of 'special' treats they are getting.

If eating Fresh Foods is a problem. Try providing them first before the dry food. Yes, a bit more work for you, but it assure that they get the health benefits of the fresh foods.

It is very important to get your basics in place prior to the transition from Older Babies into Adults. The Hormonal Rush that they will be experiencing will test your training to the maximum. It is much like Human Teenagers.

Regarding your statement: "so that they do not misbehave and grow stubborn when they reach their maturity in a couple of years."

The transition (Hormonal) will bring out all of this and likely much more. It is a very difficult time for them and their Humans. Having the basic handling skills in place will help greatly. As with Teenage Humans, they do not Hate You! Its the affects of the Hormones on their body and mind. They do not mean to be crazy /nuts, misbehave /be stubborn - its just the effect of hormones.

A very good friend on mine told me that he placed a plaque above his Amazon's cage, which read: "This To Shall Pass!" He said that it helped to know that there is a ray of Sunlight at the end of this Rushing Rage of Hormones.

Regarding your Statement: Both have their keel bone very well palpable and pronounced, though, so I guess their weight is still okay, but I will be sure to talk to the vet about this next week.

Since both of your ladies are flighted, their weights will be on the heavier side, since muscle is heavier than fat. Our male DYH Amazon is a flyer and his chest area over the keel is huge. It will be very important to tell your Avian Vet that your ladies are flyers! As long as they are flyers, they will be on the heavy side of the range! And, the muscle mass over the keel will be firm and large. If you fail to tell you Avian Vet that they are flyers, he could see this as them being 'fat.'

Again, Welcome to the Wonder World of Amazons and always remember: Amazon's Have More Fun!

 

[Kiwibird]

What Sailboat said!

Also want to add, past basic training they'll need as companion birds (step up, potty training, bite pressure and harness+recall since they are flighted), non-essential trick training should be based on individual interest level. Since you have babies, getting them interested in training may be easier than it would be with older birds. Some birds though, simply aren't interested in learning tricks and that's ok. They don't need to know how to spin in circles or put balls in baskets to be a good companion, nor will any of that help when they hit puberty. Socialization, interaction, consistently in schedule, good diet and constant enforcement of boundaries is what will really help get through puberty. You can form a positive bond and have a social bird who doesn't do tricks. My BFA is sometimes interested in trick training, sometimes not at all. I only do training sessions based on interest level that day. Makes for slow progress, but training sessions are always fun and positive for both of us that way.

I will tell you from growing up with amazons and having an amazon, they do not tend to be a species who are overly interested in doing tricks on command. Most would rather just hang out and be included in your regular activities rather than only interact for training sessions. If your goal with training is to have happy, easy going amazons, just including them, having them interact with a wide variety of people, understanding their body language and knowing when to be firm is what's really needed. They are very flock oriented and social birds. In a domestic home, humans become their flock. Shower with them, have them out with you while you watch TV, let them have a place at the table for meals, harness train them so they can run errands with you or take them to a park or on a walk with you etc... Just my 2 cents of course, but the happiest and least problematic amazons I've known weren't so much trick trained as they were regularly included in family activities.

 

[clayman]

"Grow stubborn".. That'll NEVER happen!


Jim

No need to be snide. I do know Amazons tend to be stubborn by nature and the hormonal rush that comes with adulthood does not help the case, but my understanding is that training should help keep that in check to a certain degree.

One of the problems of having two Parrots eating from the same bowl or separate bowls near each other is that the dominate one will grab all the 'goods' and the other will get little or none. Things will be much better if you separate them during feeding time to assure that each is getting a balanced diet. In addition, it allows you to better understand what and how much each is eating. This is important, because one of the early indicators of a health problem is not eating as much.

Remove the much liked items, like the Sunflower seed and provide that as the treat during training. As stated, training would be before the early evening meal. This way, they are interested in the training and you are controlling the amount of 'special' treats they are getting.

If eating Fresh Foods is a problem. Try providing them first before the dry food. Yes, a bit more work for you, but it assure that they get the health benefits of the fresh foods.

It is very important to get your basics in place prior to the transition from Older Babies into Adults. The Hormonal Rush that they will be experiencing will test your training to the maximum. It is much like Human Teenagers.

Regarding your statement: "so that they do not misbehave and grow stubborn when they reach their maturity in a couple of years."

The transition (Hormonal) will bring out all of this and likely much more. It is a very difficult time for them and their Humans. Having the basic handling skills in place will help greatly. As with Teenage Humans, they do not Hate You! Its the affects of the Hormones on their body and mind. They do not mean to be crazy /nuts, misbehave /be stubborn - its just the effect of hormones.

A very good friend on mine told me that he placed a plaque above his Amazon's cage, which read: "This To Shall Pass!" He said that it helped to know that there is a ray of Sunlight at the end of this Rushing Rage of Hormones.

Regarding your Statement: Both have their keel bone very well palpable and pronounced, though, so I guess their weight is still okay, but I will be sure to talk to the vet about this next week.

Since both of your ladies are flighted, their weights will be on the heavier side, since muscle is heavier than fat. Our male DYH Amazon is a flyer and his chest area over the keel is huge. It will be very important to tell your Avian Vet that your ladies are flyers! As long as they are flyers, they will be on the heavy side of the range! And, the muscle mass over the keel will be firm and large. If you fail to tell you Avian Vet that they are flyers, he could see this as them being 'fat.'

Again, Welcome to the Wonder World of Amazons and always remember: Amazon's Have More Fun!

Yes, it was my lack of foresight that led me to buying a single aviary. It seemed natural to have them together (although they were supposed to be a couple initially). Since I obviously need to keep them apart while feeding, and I would also like them to be able to do things together in the aviary at other times, I am now looking at a few alternative aviaries that have the ability to be split up into two separate parts, but they are very pricey (~ $900-1000).

As for the sunflower seeds and other fatty seeds, I found out that it helps a fair bit if I first serve the pellets and when the ladies are full (or close to full), I add the seeds. They both usually sit at the bowl at that time so there is much lesser chance the younger one goes on to steal all the good bits from the bowl.

Eating fresh food is not that much of an issue really. It's not like they refuse to eat it. In fact, I am quite happy and a little proud that I managed to teach them not to be afraid to try new foods I present to them. My problem was that I used to serve the fresh food alongside the pellets and seeds in the morning, so they picked what they liked best from both bowls and left the rest. Now that I serve pellets in the morning and the fruits and vegetables in the late afternoon/evening, things have gotten better. I just need to get better at estimating the amount they need -- I still end up throwing quite a lot of the contents of the bowl out in the end.

Your words about the hormonal influx indicate I have "interesting" times coming my way. Do they also get more territorial during that period? I reckon they do, so that would be one more reason to get a splittable aviary. Is egg laying an issue, too, or is it manageable with suitable diet?

Also, thanks for the info on the weight of flying Amazons. I will be sure to inform the vet.

What Sailboat said!

Also want to add, past basic training they'll need as companion birds (step up, potty training, bite pressure and harness+recall since they are flighted), non-essential trick training should be based on individual interest level. Since you have babies, getting them interested in training may be easier than it would be with older birds. Some birds though, simply aren't interested in learning tricks and that's ok. They don't need to know how to spin in circles or put balls in baskets to be a good companion, nor will any of that help when they hit puberty. Socialization, interaction, consistently in schedule, good diet and constant enforcement of boundaries is what will really help get through puberty. You can form a positive bond and have a social bird who doesn't do tricks. My BFA is sometimes interested in trick training, sometimes not at all. I only do training sessions based on interest level that day. Makes for slow progress, but training sessions are always fun and positive for both of us that way.

I will tell you from growing up with amazons and having an amazon, they do not tend to be a species who are overly interested in doing tricks on command. Most would rather just hang out and be included in your regular activities rather than only interact for training sessions. If your goal with training is to have happy, easy going amazons, just including them, having them interact with a wide variety of people, understanding their body language and knowing when to be firm is what's really needed. They are very flock oriented and social birds. In a domestic home, humans become their flock. Shower with them, have them out with you while you watch TV, let them have a place at the table for meals, harness train them so they can run errands with you or take them to a park or on a walk with you etc... Just my 2 cents of course, but the happiest and least problematic amazons I've known weren't so much trick trained as they were regularly included in family activities.

Thank you for the tip. My parrots really are meant to be good companion birds in the first place. Any cool trick I may teach them and they show interest in learning will be a nice plus, but it is not a requirement and I certainly do not want to push them in any way. If they show interest in learning something, so much the better.

As for the socialization aspect -- I live alone so there is relatively limited day-to-day opportunity for socialization, but roughly every two months I visit my parents and have the girls with me. I was a little afraid when we were visiting them for the first time about a month ago, even though the girls had already met them, but everything turned out okay, and even the neighbors came over and the girls were not afraid to sit on their shoulders eventually. That was reassuring. We just had to be careful as to not let them too close to my parents' dog (who, ironically, is more afraid of them than they of her) and my brother's newborn son.

Speaking of the place at the table -- do your birds really eat from their own dish or do they walk around, trying to snatch bits from someone else's dish? I have tried having the girls at the table during breakfast a couple of times, but the way it usually turned out was that the girls started trying to take a bite of things they were not really meant to be eating and, them being two, it was difficult to keep them at bay. We usually eat separately now, but when I have something they can eat, I allow them to come and have a little.

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[SailBoat]

Please understand that the individuals that have been Posting have been 'owned' by Amazons for a very long time. When Amazon and Stubborn is used in the same sentence, it like saying that you want your water wet. Welcome to the Amazon family! We truly Love our Amazons and those who are so very lucky to be owned by an Amazon. Never take anything personal, in all cases it is likely long standing Amazon Humor. Your family now!

Yes, the transition from Older Baby to Adult clearly has it moments. There are times that it is like a very tired toddler cutting teeth and a teenage in a single package! Who are you and what have you done with my sweet little baby? Be brave, you have friends here that have been there and survived that.

Your question regarding the 'great transition' and if they get more territorial. This is like the Water and Wet thing. Amazons: They Own You and everything you have and they see. So, more territorial? In their mind, its all theirs anyway. But more intense, yes. FYI: Please take the time to read the First Thread in the Amazon Forum regarding understanding Amazon Body Language. As your ladies get a little older, you will begin to see them using it more and more. Now is the time to learn it. I commonly recommend that you read it to your Amazons Aloud! Amazons love to be read too. Doing this a couple times a day over the next couple of weeks will set it in your mind and your ladies will Love the together time.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Hi guys,

I received the parrot training book by Michael Sazhin recently and started reading it. In it, Michael suggests to closely manage food portions to prevent overfeeding and essentially suggests that the parrot should be fed twice a day to mimic their feeding schedule in the wild. The exceptions are either extremely old or extremely young parrots, who should have continuous access to food.

Now, my two BFA ladies have reached the fifth month of age and as of this past Monday, I have started slowly incorporating this stricter food portion management into their daily routine. However, I am not entirely sure if my parrots are old enough to have their caloric intake limited like this. I used to weigh them about once a week starting one week after I got them three months ago, and it seems that their weight stopped rising significantly some time ago, although still goes up a couple of grams occasionally. I get the feeling that is in fact because I have been overfeeding them, though. Since I started this transition from freefeeding to more controlled feeding a few days ago, I weigh them daily to make sure there is no sudden weight loss, but everything appears to be fine and their weight is stable.

Based on your experience, when do you think do BFA's stop gaining weight because of growing? And also, what is the usual weight interval for BFA's? I have seen values ranging from 270g to 520g, which is kind of a stretch IMO. A friend of mine told me that, according to a book about parrots, another estimate ranges from 350g - 400g, which seems more probable to me, but I have not seen any authoritative values.

We are actually having the first avian vet appointment next Thursday, so I am going to discuss these things with her, but I would like to get more opinions from you guys.

Any insight is more than welcome. Thanks!

Save​

Amy is 27 years old now. Her weight varies,during certain seasons. I take her annually for a wellness check. Being an "older lady" now.. ( ACTUALLY..at her last wellness check,the did blood work,and after all these years,I decided to have her DNA checked..and imagine MY surprise,when I found out "she" is really a "HE"! but after all these years, why change her name? will always be Amy..and referred to as she)

A couple wellness checks ago, Amy weighed in at 524g's..her doctor called her a "little porker". This April she was at 482g's.
Then this summer we took a trip to visit Wrench13 (Al) and his family and his little boy Salty,a yellow shouldered 'zon, ( smaller than a BF) and we weighed Amy and she was at 504g's..she fluctuates.

Amy does get a bowl of varied seeds with a few different nuts..HOWEVER, her main staple is her nummy bowl which she looks for,and demands,every morning. In her nummy bowl,it varies. This morning I made a bowl of what I call chop. It consisted of a scrambled egg..a 1/4 peace of American cheese,torn in small pieces,mixed with corn niblets and sweet peas..a couple pieces of green pepper,some fruit,grapes,peaches,a cherry with no pit,and a nutraberry or two.

Then she'll go over to BB's house and help herself to whatever HE doesn't eat

Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

"Grow stubborn".. That'll NEVER happen!


Jim

No need to be snide. I do know Amazons tend to be stubborn by nature and the hormonal rush that comes with adulthood does not help the case, but my understanding is that training should help keep that in check to a certain degree.

One of the problems of having two Parrots eating from the same bowl or separate bowls near each other is that the dominate one will grab all the 'goods' and the other will get little or none. Things will be much better if you separate them during feeding time to assure that each is getting a balanced diet. In addition, it allows you to better understand what and how much each is eating. This is important, because one of the early indicators of a health problem is not eating as much.

Remove the much liked items, like the Sunflower seed and provide that as the treat during training. As stated, training would be before the early evening meal. This way, they are interested in the training and you are controlling the amount of 'special' treats they are getting.

If eating Fresh Foods is a problem. Try providing them first before the dry food. Yes, a bit more work for you, but it assure that they get the health benefits of the fresh foods.

It is very important to get your basics in place prior to the transition from Older Babies into Adults. The Hormonal Rush that they will be experiencing will test your training to the maximum. It is much like Human Teenagers.

Regarding your statement: "so that they do not misbehave and grow stubborn when they reach their maturity in a couple of years."

The transition (Hormonal) will bring out all of this and likely much more. It is a very difficult time for them and their Humans. Having the basic handling skills in place will help greatly. As with Teenage Humans, they do not Hate You! Its the affects of the Hormones on their body and mind. They do not mean to be crazy /nuts, misbehave /be stubborn - its just the effect of hormones.

A very good friend on mine told me that he placed a plaque above his Amazon's cage, which read: "This To Shall Pass!" He said that it helped to know that there is a ray of Sunlight at the end of this Rushing Rage of Hormones.

Regarding your Statement: Both have their keel bone very well palpable and pronounced, though, so I guess their weight is still okay, but I will be sure to talk to the vet about this next week.

Since both of your ladies are flighted, their weights will be on the heavier side, since muscle is heavier than fat. Our male DYH Amazon is a flyer and his chest area over the keel is huge. It will be very important to tell your Avian Vet that your ladies are flyers! As long as they are flyers, they will be on the heavy side of the range! And, the muscle mass over the keel will be firm and large. If you fail to tell you Avian Vet that they are flyers, he could see this as them being 'fat.'

Again, Welcome to the Wonder World of Amazons and always remember: Amazon's Have More Fun!

Yes, it was my lack of foresight that led me to buying a single aviary. It seemed natural to have them together (although they were supposed to be a couple initially). Since I obviously need to keep them apart while feeding, and I would also like them to be able to do things together in the aviary at other times, I am now looking at a few alternative aviaries that have the ability to be split up into two separate parts, but they are very pricey (~ $900-1000).

As for the sunflower seeds and other fatty seeds, I found out that it helps a fair bit if I first serve the pellets and when the ladies are full (or close to full), I add the seeds. They both usually sit at the bowl at that time so there is much lesser chance the younger one goes on to steal all the good bits from the bowl.

Eating fresh food is not that much of an issue really. It's not like they refuse to eat it. In fact, I am quite happy and a little proud that I managed to teach them not to be afraid to try new foods I present to them. My problem was that I used to serve the fresh food alongside the pellets and seeds in the morning, so they picked what they liked best from both bowls and left the rest. Now that I serve pellets in the morning and the fruits and vegetables in the late afternoon/evening, things have gotten better. I just need to get better at estimating the amount they need -- I still end up throwing quite a lot of the contents of the bowl out in the end.

Your words about the hormonal influx indicate I have "interesting" times coming my way. Do they also get more territorial during that period? I reckon they do, so that would be one more reason to get a splittable aviary. Is egg laying an issue, too, or is it manageable with suitable diet?

Also, thanks for the info on the weight of flying Amazons. I will be sure to inform the vet.

What Sailboat said!

Also want to add, past basic training they'll need as companion birds (step up, potty training, bite pressure and harness+recall since they are flighted), non-essential trick training should be based on individual interest level. Since you have babies, getting them interested in training may be easier than it would be with older birds. Some birds though, simply aren't interested in learning tricks and that's ok. They don't need to know how to spin in circles or put balls in baskets to be a good companion, nor will any of that help when they hit puberty. Socialization, interaction, consistently in schedule, good diet and constant enforcement of boundaries is what will really help get through puberty. You can form a positive bond and have a social bird who doesn't do tricks. My BFA is sometimes interested in trick training, sometimes not at all. I only do training sessions based on interest level that day. Makes for slow progress, but training sessions are always fun and positive for both of us that way.

I will tell you from growing up with amazons and having an amazon, they do not tend to be a species who are overly interested in doing tricks on command. Most would rather just hang out and be included in your regular activities rather than only interact for training sessions. If your goal with training is to have happy, easy going amazons, just including them, having them interact with a wide variety of people, understanding their body language and knowing when to be firm is what's really needed. They are very flock oriented and social birds. In a domestic home, humans become their flock. Shower with them, have them out with you while you watch TV, let them have a place at the table for meals, harness train them so they can run errands with you or take them to a park or on a walk with you etc... Just my 2 cents of course, but the happiest and least problematic amazons I've known weren't so much trick trained as they were regularly included in family activities.

Thank you for the tip. My parrots really are meant to be good companion birds in the first place. Any cool trick I may teach them and they show interest in learning will be a nice plus, but it is not a requirement and I certainly do not want to push them in any way. If they show interest in learning something, so much the better.

As for the socialization aspect -- I live alone so there is relatively limited day-to-day opportunity for socialization, but roughly every two months I visit my parents and have the girls with me. I was a little afraid when we were visiting them for the first time about a month ago, even though the girls had already met them, but everything turned out okay, and even the neighbors came over and the girls were not afraid to sit on their shoulders eventually. That was reassuring. We just had to be careful as to not let them too close to my parents' dog (who, ironically, is more afraid of them than they of her) and my brother's newborn son.

Speaking of the place at the table -- do your birds really eat from their own dish or do they walk around, trying to snatch bits from someone else's dish? I have tried having the girls at the table during breakfast a couple of times, but the way it usually turned out was that the girls started trying to take a bite of things they were not really meant to be eating and, them being two, it was difficult to keep them at bay. We usually eat separately now, but when I have something they can eat, I allow them to come and have a little.

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Take your young girls out with you! THIS IS THE TIME! SERIOUSLY! When I got Amy at 14 weeks old (27 years ago) I took her to places. Stores,coffee shops,friends,the park. I let her experience what outside is all about,and that there are other people besides just daddy in this world.

And now, she looks forward to it! "outside??..in the car??.." is one of her favorite sayings. Today we went to Walmart Department Store, she rode on the carriages handlebar, babbling happily in Amazon speak..and ocassional "hello" when someone approached us. Then it was to the coffee shop, where the girls behind the counter know her well,and gave Amy a plain piece of donut. We regulary visit the petshop,for toys,or to visit the other birdies. She gets so excited! She talks to the budgies and little green armed BeeBees..the girl in the bird department can handle her as well as I can! She has gone to MY doctors office! And my doctor gets a kick out of seeing her!
BUT...I started her when she was just a pup..she will literally go to anyone, coz I SOCIALIZED her
Do that with your young girls NOW..and you will have two very amazing Amazons for life..and they will love you for it!

Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Clayman..NOTHING I said meant to be sarcastic or snide! I am very sorry if it came off that way to you!

Like Steven (Sail Boat) said...it is just Amazon humor! please except my apology!!!


Jim

 

[clayman]

All right, no offence taken. As for going outside, that is one of my goals as well, but now that September is almost over, days are going to get a lot colder and, sadly, my girls are not yet harness-trained. Hopefully next spring we will start going out. They will be close to a year old, which is later than would be preferable, but here is hoping all is not lost yet. I understand it may take longer for them to get desensitized then, though.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Yes I understand its getting cold Same here. I was fortunate...when I got Amy it was late April and just starting to get warmer.

A harness is an excellent idea. Amy does not wear one. She is always clipped, and has NEVER flown. I don't think she knows how. In the fall/winter I let her feathers grow in,coz she obviously doesn't go out,and even when she is fully flighted, in just the "few" times she has been startled/spooked and flapped wildly,she didn't make it far in the living room.


Jim

 

[clayman]

Yes I understand its getting cold Same here. I was fortunate...when I got Amy it was late April and just starting to get warmer.

A harness is an excellent idea. Amy does not wear one. She is always clipped, and has NEVER flown. I don't think she knows how. In the fall/winter I let her feathers grow in,coz she obviously doesn't go out,and even when she is fully flighted, in just the "few" times she has been startled/spooked and flapped wildly,she didn't make it far in the living room.


Jim

I imagine having a non-flighted parrot makes walks together a lot easier and safer.

Anyway, I have finally gotten around to sharing with you all the results of the girls' first vet check-up. It went surprisingly smoothly, the ladies were mostly calm -- they just did not enjoy having their bellies checked by the doc with me holding them, and when I asked the doc to file their claws a little, she took a small electric file and her assistant had to hold each of the girls while they had their claws filed. Tia really did not like it and tried to put up a little fight, but Ori just held still quietly. I guess she was just petrified.

Anyway, I am happy to report that the girls are fine, healthy, and the tests for chlamydia and parasites turned out negative. I asked the doc about the food management practice I have been thinking about and she told me that the girls are not going to grow anymore, so I could start doing that, but I was also told that it won't be until about 18 months of age that possible overfeeding starts to show.

I eventually decided to keep my current routine, i.e. the girls will be free to eat the pellets and seeds throughout the day, but they will be receiving measured portions so that when I get home at about 5-6 in the early evening, they will be a little hungry so that I can train them and then they will receive their last meal made of fresh produce.

Speaking of which, how many kinds of fruits and vegetables do you guys feed in one sitting? I try to make it a little more varied so I usually serve about 4-5 kinds of fruits and (mostly) vegetables, but I struggle with how much of each part of the dish to serve so that the girls do not get full just by eating what they like most.

I also struggle with the amount of dropped food. I assume the girls will continually drop less and less food as they get better coordination of their foot-to-beak movements, but they sometimes drop quite a lot of stuff. Sazhin said in his book that he has trained his parrots so well that they are careful not to drop anything outside their dish, which is nice, but I reckon they had to be a little hungrier before they realized that it is preferable to not drop anything outside their bowls.

 

[wrench13]

I dont know any parrot that did not drop a huge percentage of their food onto the grating.
Or fling it onto the walls. Or drop it onto the floor ( for the dog to eat).

 

[Jimdc]

Hi Cayman, I enjoyed reading your thread. I also have a blue fronted Amazon baby Rory he will be 7 months old one the 16th.it's nice to know you are going through the same things as I. We don't have people at our home a lot so it heard to socialise him.i also live in Europe. I live in Glasgow Scotland as I live in the city centre on the river is have him on the balcony as much possible so he gets used to all the city noses.