What is the question?

[MissMac]

To clip or not to clip... that is the question.

I have two, 71/2 month old IRN females. Missy I raised from 5 weeks and Gracie I got from the breeder when she was already weaned.... and Gracie was clipped - they're still growing out.
I hate to ask this on account of what you all think of clipping a birds wings and, I must admit - I agree with you. Why have a bird if you are going to stop it from flying?
The thing is..... MISSY!!!. She is making my experience with IRN's into a kind of Hell.
I swear she does all she can to piss me off. I have had to hide all of my art work to protect it from her. The little trinkets I still have on display are dwindling down to nothing. It can't be boredom. She is spoilt for choice of toys to play with. Truly spoilt.
It can't be attention. She gets it all day from me. I'm home and well you can see where I work in the photos. (BTW I have added a lot more footsie toys for them on the right side play gym.... we ran out of room on the main complex) I'm either on the computer or making them toys... or playing with them.... peekaboo and the like, all in the same spot.
I've had parrots before but never to this degree and I am slowly losing what is left of my mind. Granted I am suffering more now with the black dog, but she isn't helping. I feel like the worst, most incompetent, bird owner alive.
Put her in the cage they say, only let her out at certain times, they say. HOW do I get her back into the cage if it is the end of freedom time? I have to follow her around the room to wear her out to catch her to put her into the cage. I have tried EVERYTHING!!! to make that task easier but nothing works. It might work once but by then she knows it and won't go along again.
What can I do to make life more bearable. Gracie isn't flying yet but Heaven help me if she will become the same as Missy. Atm I am being her "chauffer" and taking her to where Missy is and back again. She is, because of her not being able to fly, easier to deal with, but I know it can't be nice for her to watch Missy fly and not be able to do exactly the same.... and yet.....
Please no attacks... I've done that to myself enough already. I just need help... or maybe i just should have bought myself another dog.... at least they do as I say.

 

[Henderbird]

I feel for you, I really do.
My suggestion? Maybe a very mild clip?
Don't get me wrong I'm against wing clipping too I hate seeing it but seeing the situation and all and that you've tried a lot of things yourself to make the circumstances easier, maybe you could do that mild clip and so your bird will still fly pretty high but not high enough where they will cause trouble for you.
But then again, these little monsters get into everything lol. Cute but sometimes ehh not so much.
You've mentioned trying to get her back into the cage? If you really don't want to clip just for this situation, then I recommend recall training or if you've tried that, then maybe turn out the lights and carefully catch your bird in a small towel and put back into cage. Birds cannot see in the dark so your bird will not be able to see you doing it, so it keeps your trust and makes going back in the cage more efficient.
Putting treats in the cage that are of high value will also entice your bird to go back in maybe. Make sure the treat is seen being put in the food dish of the cage for your bird to go in.
Again, if it's really troubling, mild clip is fine because you need a peace of mind too, but these are other options in case you change your mind.
Don't feel like a bad bird owner, you're a great bird owner! You're just a little stressed and need options! And we're here to provide that!

 

[Skarila]

Whoa, you weren't kidding when you said your home is a playground!! I wish i had something like that!!

I agree perhaps a mild clip might be an option here, she could still fly just not very high. However trainings would be in order! I had to teach pascal random tricks which also lead him to go back to his cage. All of his big treats are given only if he goes into his cage. He will gladly go in, closed or not. While he will cry if closed, its much easier now when i have to go out or open the balcony door. Interestingly the budgie also learned, if i am asking Pascal to go into cage, she goes into hers. Just very lucky they picked it up. Fruit pieces and his favourite treats rarely go ignored, so on the command he will waddle down back into his cage, accept the treat and i can close the cage, praising him meantime. His cage is always open, when i give fruits i ask him to eat it inside just to contain the mess there, that time i don't close him.

Also stick/clicker training helped me a lot to get him to where i want him to go. Later on i just switched stick with my finger, so often he will go and just touch my finger if he wants a treat.

Irns are very stubborn birds so I understand your fears and struggles. Wish you all the best!

 

[BirdyBee]

My opinion isn't just as easy as "to clip or not to clip". It depends on the situation itself. If the bird is harming itself through flying, or other people(mentally or physically), it might be best to clip. If your bird is misbehaving, it's best to work through the behaviour. If the behaviour is related to flight and behavioral training does not work, clipping may be easier for the owner.

People always think about the bird, but not the owner. A lot of people clip their birds to prevent them from escaping, and it's really frowned apon in the bird care community. But what about the owner? He/she may be incredibly anxious about it escaping, and it starts to have a bad effect on the owner.

Of course, there are some really bad physical effects that clipping can have, and it's unnatural, but in my honest opinion, nothing about keeping birds is natural.

I believe that if you do decide clip a bird, that it should first learn how to fly, and that you shouldn't clip more than the first 5 flight feathers(for budgies/cockatiels at least, I don't know about other birds).

 

[Laurasea]

Your art is so amazing, sad to hear its under attack.

Definitely lots of amazing enrichment in your photo wow!

If the cage has become a negative thing and she knows it always means an end to freedom. Then you can work on reconditioning that. Lots of trips to cage and step to or in get a treat abd right back out. Repeat lots. Then little trios to cage abd stay in fir a minute and back out. To staying in a couple of minutes abd back out. Do randomly.

You can also teach them to return to cage when asked. Takes some fooling around, same phase, lots of high value treats and praise. A routine.

 

[MissMac]

I feel for you, I really do.
My suggestion? Maybe a very mild clip?
Don't get me wrong I'm against wing clipping too I hate seeing it but seeing the situation and all and that you've tried a lot of things yourself to make the circumstances easier, maybe you could do that mild clip and so your bird will still fly pretty high but not high enough where they will cause trouble for you.
But then again, these little monsters get into everything lol. Cute but sometimes ehh not so much.
You've mentioned trying to get her back into the cage? If you really don't want to clip just for this situation, then I recommend recall training or if you've tried that, then maybe turn out the lights and carefully catch your bird in a small towel and put back into cage. Birds cannot see in the dark so your bird will not be able to see you doing it, so it keeps your trust and makes going back in the cage more efficient.
Putting treats in the cage that are of high value will also entice your bird to go back in maybe. Make sure the treat is seen being put in the food dish of the cage for your bird to go in.
Again, if it's really troubling, mild clip is fine because you need a peace of mind too, but these are other options in case you change your mind.
Don't feel like a bad bird owner, you're a great bird owner! You're just a little stressed and need options! And we're here to provide that!

Thank you for understanding. Training Missy now is harder, because I have Gracie too... naturally they both want the treats and if I only train with Missy then Gracie gets jealous and snippy at her. If I only train with Gracie... well... Missy won't let me train with only Gracie. If there is a treat, she wants it. Missy's idea of foraging is chewing thru a food bag. I give them both treats when they go into the cage at bedtime. Gracie takes herself to bed. Missy has to be ready for me to take her there. Leaving the treats in the cage is a big no no too.. Missy you see. And if Gracie is eating them then Missy gets abused for coming in to eat them too.
I live in Tasmania, Australia. In the summer it's light at about 4:30 am but not dark again till around 9:30 pm. I don't even use the lights in the summer.... there simply is no need. Winter is another story. In the height of winter it is still dark at 7 am and starts to get dark again at around 5:30 pm. Turning off the lights again isn't needed... it's already dark for them. Thankfully they go to bed early in the winter so I get more time to actually relax and not worry about what Missy is up to or if she is too close to the back door again... she walked out the back door following one of my dogs. I rent so my options of having the back door open so my dogs can go outside for nature calls is limited. I now have made a sort of half barrier out of acrylic boarding with a doggie flap curtain in black to hopefully confuse Missy so she doesn't walk out again... when it is windy tho the flap blows up and she can see the open hole. Not a day goes by where I don't have a sort of panic attack if I can't find her, and I am constantly checking to see where she is and to tell her to get off the floor. It was in mere minutes that she got from on top of the freezer to out the back door and away. Recall training was going well until she got out. But it wasn't good enough for me to recall her back to me.

 

[MissMac]

Your art is so amazing, sad to hear its under attack.

Definitely lots of amazing enrichment in your photo wow!

If the cage has become a negative thing and she knows it always means an end to freedom. Then you can work on reconditioning that. Lots of trips to cage and step to or in get a treat abd right back out. Repeat lots. Then little trios to cage abd stay in fir a minute and back out. To staying in a couple of minutes abd back out. Do randomly.

You can also teach them to return to cage when asked. Takes some fooling around, same phase, lots of high value treats and praise. A routine.

How do I train one bird at a time? Missy can fly and Gracie cannot. If I train Missy with treats then Gracie gets jealous and snippy with her. And I can't train just Gracie, as Missy simply won't stay out of the training session.

 

[MissMac]

My opinion isn't just as easy as "to clip or not to clip". It depends on the situation itself. If the bird is harming itself through flying, or other people(mentally or physically), it might be best to clip. If your bird is misbehaving, it's best to work through the behaviour. If the behaviour is related to flight and behavioral training does not work, clipping may be easier for the owner.

People always think about the bird, but not the owner. A lot of people clip their birds to prevent them from escaping, and it's really frowned apon in the bird care community. But what about the owner? He/she may be incredibly anxious about it escaping, and it starts to have a bad effect on the owner.

Of course, there are some really bad physical effects that clipping can have, and it's unnatural, but in my honest opinion, nothing about keeping birds is natural.

I believe that if you do decide clip a bird, that it should first learn how to fly, and that you shouldn't clip more than the first 5 flight feathers(for budgies/cockatiels at least, I don't know about other birds).

Yes Gracie was clipped and I don't know when. She flies now but only downward. Her distance covered tho is getting longer. Missy has always flown. I worry every day as to when she is getting into. I am constantly telling her to get off the floor and I have had to come up with a way to keep the back door open for my dogs but not have it so open for Missy to just walk out. I have a curtain fly screen as I rent here and in the winter I have a thermal curtain to try to keep the cold out. Missy walked out when she got away. She followed one of my dogs out and there isn't a day that goes by where I can't find her. Recall training was going well until she got out. I also now have the two birds. I honestly thought Missy having her own feathered friend would be what she needed. I was wrong. Now I have to train the two of them. How do I do it separately when Missy simply won't leave us alone?

 

[MissMac]

Whoa, you weren't kidding when you said your home is a playground!! I wish i had something like that!!

I agree perhaps a mild clip might be an option here, she could still fly just not very high. However trainings would be in order! I had to teach pascal random tricks which also lead him to go back to his cage. All of his big treats are given only if he goes into his cage. He will gladly go in, closed or not. While he will cry if closed, its much easier now when i have to go out or open the balcony door. Interestingly the budgie also learned, if i am asking Pascal to go into cage, she goes into hers. Just very lucky they picked it up. Fruit pieces and his favourite treats rarely go ignored, so on the command he will waddle down back into his cage, accept the treat and i can close the cage, praising him meantime. His cage is always open, when i give fruits i ask him to eat it inside just to contain the mess there, that time i don't close him.

Also stick/clicker training helped me a lot to get him to where i want him to go. Later on i just switched stick with my finger, so often he will go and just touch my finger if he wants a treat.

Irns are very stubborn birds so I understand your fears and struggles. Wish you all the best!

I built the bird complex myself. As Gracie can't fly I have a series of rope bridges for her to get from A to B. Anywhere else Missy goes I have to take Gracie there myself. Top of the fridge, top of the cupboards or the kitchen window perch. It's all in the same room.... except for the toilet.... and I admit.... so Gracie won't feel left out as all my pets follow me in there, I have, on occasion, taking Gracie in there too.
How do I train just one bird if the other one simply won't leave us alone? The other bird, in this case is Missy. Gracie can't fly so I can train Missy to a degree but she is too smart and sees that Gracie has to do less for a treat (as she can't fly) so she expects the same treatment. Oh and it has to be when she wants to, naturally.
I give them both treats when Missy finally is ready to go to her cage at night. Gracie takes herself in there, I take Missy there only when she is ready.... too early and it's pointless.

 

[Laurasea]

Your art is so amazing, sad to hear its under attack.

Definitely lots of amazing enrichment in your photo wow!

If the cage has become a negative thing and she knows it always means an end to freedom. Then you can work on reconditioning that. Lots of trips to cage and step to or in get a treat abd right back out. Repeat lots. Then little trios to cage abd stay in fir a minute and back out. To staying in a couple of minutes abd back out. Do randomly.

You can also teach them to return to cage when asked. Takes some fooling around, same phase, lots of high value treats and praise. A routine.

Then do them both together ❤ its probably a lot easier with only one thst can fly!

Take Gracie first ! Give treat and brag. Then get Missy. Use Gracie to model the behavior for Missy. With enough bragging and treats to Gracie, Missy might stsrt flying over on her own FOMO.

Then both will be trained when Grace can fly again.

I have multiple burds that also get jealous of attention or treats to one. But have.
learned to wait their turn .

Msybe you've looked through my flock thread? If you have you've seen I've been trying for a group photo . That takes getting them each at one time and asking them to stay while I go get the next one. Takes some fooling around and a lot of repeat. I've gotten them together several times but its hard getting them all looking good at the same time.

Anyway give it a try. If it doesn't work it doesn't work.

 

[BirdyBee]

Yes Gracie was clipped and I don't know when. She flies now but only downward. Her distance covered tho is getting longer. Missy has always flown. I worry every day as to when she is getting into. I am constantly telling her to get off the floor and I have had to come up with a way to keep the back door open for my dogs but not have it so open for Missy to just walk out. I have a curtain fly screen as I rent here and in the winter I have a thermal curtain to try to keep the cold out. Missy walked out when she got away. She followed one of my dogs out and there isn't a day that goes by where I can't find her. Recall training was going well until she got out. I also now have the two birds. I honestly thought Missy having her own feathered friend would be what she needed. I was wrong. Now I have to train the two of them. How do I do it separately when Missy simply won't leave us alone?

@Laurasea gave some very good advice above

 

[MayMaroa]

i agree

 

[Squeeing_Onion]

One of the first things I do with my birds is teach them where ‘their areas’ are - I have several bird perches and playgyms across my house, which it sounds like you do as well! Any time they hang out on an area I don’t want them visiting on the regular - i go over to supervise directly. If they begin chewing, popping, etc, I will move them (or in Echo’s case, gently shoo him) to a birdie area. He learned very quickly that he won’t be bothered when he is on his cage, on his gym, or sitting on the window perch. He now flies to those areas by preference.

One of the things to note with birds is the fact that they are a prey animal; this means the way they learn can be a bit different from predators. A predator can fail and live another day and continue learning; a prey animal is generally exceptional at the “one time learning” lesson, meaning they are capable of learning something in one go. This, however, does NOT mean they will learn what you *want* them to learn. complex lessons take many tiny baby steps to teach, of many smaller lessons.

An example is my green cheek; she was grabbed and possibly thrown from said hand when she bit her previous owner, who didn’t understand bird behavior or why he was being bitten. For him, it was “this bird is biting me for no reason, unprovoked” - for Bongo, she was likely trying to communicate something, but all she learned out of the experience wasn’t that ‘oh no she hurt the human’, it was “I can be forcibly and painfully grabbed by a hand I had come to trust.” They did not repair that breach of trust by the time she was adopted to me, and it took me a year and a half of bloody bites to earn her trust.

Birds are generally very self centric in terms of learning; meaning, they learn through prioritizing themself and their needs, versus say, the human who often prioritizes the bird even as we put up with bites, shrieks, and damaged furniture. They worry first for themselves, not if they hurt your feelings or bit you. That is something you have to teach them.

For example, Echo is learning that he does not have to be afraid of myself or my Mama. He doesn’t learn this in one lesson… but he learns many tiny things each time we interact that will build up into a much broader, more complex lesson. We started with proximty; he knows I won’t lunge to grab him when I am within arm’s reach and my hands are calmly at my side, or occupied holding something. We then progressed to him learning that when he is loose, he won’t be bothered when he’s in “birdie okay” areas, but I will shoo him off of things I don’t want him on.

They respond very well to positive reinforcement; I lavish attention on both my parrots when they are quiet, when they are playing with a toy or on an area meant for them, etc.

One of the downsides to parrots ‘learning from one experience’ is it’s very easy to damage their training sith the ‘wrong lesson learned ‘ - for example, if you close the door on your bird the instant they finally go in their cage, and you do this more than once, they will beginnto learn “oh, every time I go inside, it means i get stuck”

You can shape their behavior, but understand that it takes time - sometimes days, sometimes weeks or months, and in some cases, years. Positively reinforce your birds’ behaviors when they do things you want them to be doing - redirect them when they aren’t. When Bongo chewed on my art or books, i moved her to her birdie gym then showed her things okay to chew and shred, and over the course of a few months, she learned to prefer those.

Do not yell, shout, raise your voice, or generally give a “big emotional reaction” when they do something negative, like shred your artwork. I typically show them my displeasure with my facial expression, but speak calmly and firmly, and I relax the instant the unwanted behavior ends.

Now… of course, she’ll still try to get in trouble when she thinks “Mom isn’t paying attention” - but it has helped, loads.

Small yet frequent outtings of Quality time out of the cage is better than full freedom without enforcement. Clipping wings is something i advise only if you or your bird are in physical danger of being hurt or worse; it can have very negative effects on a bird’s health, on their trust of you, of their trust of themselves and their self confidence, and some react very poorly to it with depression or aggression.

If your birds are trying to escape their cages and shoving faces into the bars, thread the areas they focus on with newspaper or other chewable, shreddable paper, to redirect them from the metal to the paper obstacle.

Sorry for the long winded rambling, hope anything in there helped, good luck!

 

[Squeeing_Onion]

I keep thinking about this post, and I had some more thoughts to contribute;

It can't be boredom. She is spoilt for choice of toys to play with. Truly spoilt.
It can't be attention. She gets it all day from me.

Actually, it CAN be these things - but not in the way you may think. It’s not that your bird isn’t getting enough attention, it’s that she needs to be getting the RIGHT attention. It’s not that your bird has nothing to do - it’s that she needs to be taught HOW and WHAT is okay to do. I’ve read a bunch of your other posts on your struggles with Missy - and she sounds like a classic case of a good bird, who simply wasn’t taught early on behaviors that would help her as an adult. Like when a puppy is so cute and we let them jump up and lick our faces… and then when that tiny puppy is now a big adult dog, they are confused why the human is suddenly angry about the same behavior.

The good news, is that yes, you can fix this.

The bad news is that yes, it is going to take TIME and a lot of your patience.

No one can give you a one-stop “cure” for the behaviors. Parrots unfortunately just son’t learn like that, and they are incredibly individual so each one will learn in a slightly different way. My first parrot stopped biting me after three days and that was it, we were besties for life. My second parrot took a year and a half of my tears and frustration and patience to get her to stop biting me when she wanted to communicate even the slightest bit of distress.

What you have is a bird who has been given, with good intentions, a whole bunch of freedom, yet little education on how to positively utilize that freedom, and so she has done whatever she felt like doing… and all of these things you have written about, are perfectly normal and natural bird behaviors; she just needs to be redirected.

Birds are routine orientated, yes. However, this can also be a detriment. It’s useful if you yourself live a lifestyle where, say, you wake at the same hour every day and have a set bedtime, so it’s easy to wake your bird and put them to bed around the same time. It proves a problem when it comes to managing other things - my green cheek bongo sometimes spends her entire afternoon in her cage because i am working, and sometimes she spends the e n t i r e day out of her cage. I have purposefully varied her routine so she can handle change; this is something i had to teach her, as she came to me as a very inflexible bird.

Missy’s routine right now is to be “out all day” - it’s expected for her to protest that routine changing, and it’ll take time to adjust her to it.

Some questions about how you have been working with your bird;

When she does something you dislike, how do you respond? Do you raise your voice, approach her, do you use an item to distract her or your hands? Do you physically move her from the thing she should not be on, can you hold her or direct her at all? Do you say particular phrases or simply tell her “no” ?

When she is being quiet, do you give her attention, or do you find yourself mostly responding to her when she is being noisy or doing an undesirable behavior?

Telling a bird “no” does absolutely nothing, in my experience, unless you have very specifically trained that bird to understand the word. The issue with this is that this word is so broad and can have complex application - birds learn specific commands more easily than ‘broad’ ones.

For example, when bongo chews on things i do not want her to, I tell her “No chew”

If she is on something she should not be on, I tell her “get off” and redirect her to an area she may play on freely. I may have to do this several times in a row before she gets the picture… and often times, she’ll be right back at it the next day, or even an hour or two later. It takes repetition and lots of patience, and the worst thing you can do is get angry at the bird. Remember not to take it personally; view them like a toddler being taught good manners, but also remember… they are a bird, not a human, and they do and should think like birds.

Think of approaching parrot training like a sculptor who has only one block of marble to work with; you can shape your birds behavior, but you cannot simply add new stone to change a part you don’t like or break it off and risk harming the birdie sculpture. You have to work with the bird where they are at now.

Your bird is used to freedom with little rules attached; it is incredibly natural for her to rebel and dislike New Changes, because for her, this is very confusing. Birds are all about consistency.

If you want her to stay off a piece of furniture, don’t allow her on it, period. For example, if you tell her to “get off” for a week but one day you’re sitting there and then she flies to it… and you let her stay… the bird has now learned that the boundaries you set are flexible and changing, and she will continue to test just how far she can make you ‘flex’ the rules.

If your bird screams and screams in rage at being locked up, and you come let her out a half hour or an hour later to save your eardrums, your bird has now learned “i must scream for this long to get what i want.” You HAVE to stick to your guns, and it is largely a game of patience.

Don’t take it personally if your bird is upset or if she bites. She doesn’t hate you; she’s acting out on her own confusion and frustration.

Weaning her back is a good approach; i have been teaching my new IRN, Echo, cage safety and that it is not a trap for him.

Day one of him being out of his cage: i let him out. He was out for a few hours, then mama and i used ladders to ask him to step on them (which mostly resulted in him flying back and forth to different perches to escape us), being very mindful not to scare him into shock (if your bird is panting for breath, BACK OFF and let them recoup, or you can cause severe damage driving them into panic). I did not poke or swing the ladder at him; i approached calmly and slowly, where he could see everything i did.

Eventually, he flew into a smaller room and i was able to get him to step on the ladder, and bring him back to his cage. I let him walk inside off the ladder by himself, and provided raspberries as a reward, a favored fruit.

Day two of outness: He flew to some spots i didn’t want him on, so i calmly approach and shooed him off with the ladder (he had the option to step onto it, but his preference atm is to fly away) until he landed somewhere that was “birdie safe” (a play gym) then left him be for a while, calmly talking and checking on him. Eventully, he flew to his own cage, and went inside. I closed the door once he’d been inside for a bit. He now no longer freaks out when I approach, and even lets me set the ladder next to his feet, as he trusts now i won’t try to hit him with it, and he can just fly away if he’s uncomfortable.

Day three: He now flies abck and forth from his cage to birdie gyms, and today’s goal was very simple: to let him go in and out of his cage at least once, WITHOUT me closing the door behind him. This was to ensure he did not come to associate “if i go inside, i am now stuck inside”, crucial for birds who don’t like being “in”

He did just that, and when he later again went inside to eat and then nap, i left him be for several minutes before then closing the door.

Day four: This time, when he went into his cage, i walked over and played with his door - then i put a treat in his food dish and walked away without closing it. This was to teach him to learn that when i touch his door or come near his cage, it is not always to shut him inside.

I’d type more, but that’s as far as I have gotten with him, and I hope it illustrates the method i approach bird training with; very small, singular goals, with an emphasis on building variety to not only accustom your bird to that variety, but to prevent their very routine-orientated brains from “learning the wrong lessons.”

You may have to keep your stuff hidden for a while as you correct Missy’s behaviors, but over time - which may be weeks, months, or years - you will be able to bring them out again. Positive reinforcement and focusing on tiny, baby goals, will get you a long way on the path of educating her.

Instead of “teach my bird to behave and not chew on my art!” Think “teach my bird to entertain themself with toys and to be independent” - focus on things you can teach them, rather than things to ‘remove’ from teaching. You can’t really correct them like you would children with discipline, but you can redirect them and reinforce the positive behaviors you want with praise and attention.

Missy obviously adores you - parrots don’t be that clingy and in your business if they don’t! - so with time and patience, she’ll come around