Unexpected twist for Johnny Dangerously

[Eitak579]

I’m one of this forum’s shadows and appreciate you all. I joined about two years ago when I adopted Johnny my Ekkie and things have been great much to the credit, posts and advice of the great members here. The last 36 hours here have been completely out of the ordinary and I thought I’d give posting a go. Hopefully we find some answers and may help someone searching — as I have done — in the future.

Yesterday Johnny began aggressively pulling out down feathers completely out of the blue — he has never picked before. It was if he had an insatiable itch between his shoulders and on his upper chest. Nothing has changed in his diet which is frozen chop, fresh vegetables, fresh fruit and other varied whole foods, fed and measured twice a day. Weekdays he gets a small handful of Goldenobles-organic with no additives- for something to forage while we work. I checked him over and couldn’t find any identifiable issues so gave him a shower and it stopped the picking. About midnight night he started toe tapping and wing flipping (he has a sleep cage in the bedroom). I was completely stunned, it was awful, there was no sleep to be had for anyone the rest of the night.

This morning the picking continued but the toe tapping stopped. I called our CAV but she was out for the week and I was referred to another nearby clinic. As this was something I wasn’t willing to wait on, we made an appointment and were able to get in today.

The “new” CAV didn’t seem to be very familiar with Ekkie wing flipping and toe tapping, she noted that it was just in the bird’s head but did find an abnormality in his fecal sample. The tech noted that there was no yeast, little to no gram negative bacteria and almost entirely gram positive bacteria but that several of the rods were, as she put it, “really fat”. After the vet and she discussed, it sounded like these extra-large gram positive rods were very unusual and not something either appeared to have come across before. Other than that, she noted that he was in excellent health and showed no signs of any other type of deficiency or issue.

He was prescribed an antibiotic and probiotic. At the moment he is still wing flipping but not picking or toe tapping. I’m planning to follow up with our regular CAV when she returns but this whole thing has me anxious and worried.

 

[PetoftheDay]

Aww, you and he will be in our prayers, let us know what you find out!

 

[plumsmum2005]

I know you will get replies from Ekkie parronts but in the meantime I would cut the pellets and work on more veggies than fruits, reduce that down. Working on the principle that it could be a gradual build up and when that reaches a point you get symptoms. A real PIA that your regular CAV is out of town. How is Johnny now?

Probably be helpful if you list the foods that are included daily.

Keep up with showers. Please search posts by Anansi as he has two Ekkies, Jolly and Maya and to my knowledge never suffered with this (birds not him LOL) and it may give you some results.

Is there anything that has happened lately that is different from the norm, been somewhere with him, new toys, new anything? etc?

 

[Eitak579]

I know you will get replies from Ekkie parronts but in the meantime I would cut the pellets and work on more veggies than fruits, reduce that down. Working on the principle that it could be a gradual build up and when that reaches a point you get symptoms.

Probably be helpful if you list the foods that are included daily.

Keep up with showers. Please search posts by Anansi as he has two Ekkies, Jolly and Maya and to my knowledge never suffered with this (birds not him LOL) and it may give you some results.

Thanks Plumsmum,
I actually copied Anansi's thread when Maya had a short issue to discuss with the vet, definitely a wealth of information. However the vet was not interested in discussing any other possible causes other than the fecal. To be fair, it's a good starting point, I'm just at a loss with it and would love to know what "Fat gram positive rods" are doing to my guy :/

 

[plumsmum2005]

Hoping you get more input soon and in the meantime make sure he takes his meds

Possible causes : fortified foods, preservatives, colours, additives, metal toxicity, pesticides, chemicals, calcium deficiency and food allergies.

 

[Anansi]

I know you will get replies from Ekkie parronts but in the meantime I would cut the pellets and work on more veggies than fruits, reduce that down. Working on the principle that it could be a gradual build up and when that reaches a point you get symptoms...

Excellent advice. I am not familiar with Goldennobles specifically, but pellets in general do tend to have a history of causing toe-tap and wing-flip in ekkies. You might want to try dropping them from the diet and see if it makes a difference over the next few days.

It's a shame that your CAV is out of town, as hearing a vet proclaim that something is "just in the bird's head" and then refuse to consider any issues other than the fecal abnormalities would completely shatter any confidence I might have had in her. It indicates a dangerous close-mindedness that I see as a red flag even in the most knowledgeable of vets.

Wish I had a better idea of what fat, gram positive rods might mean in a fecal sample. Please keep us updated, especially once you follow up with your own vet.

I'd also increase the shower frequency since it seemed to provide at least temporary relief.

As you've read my thread about Maya, I wonder what the regular CAV might think of the possibility that the plucking in this situation might not resemble when maya was picking at her foot? Namely that something is causing a tingling n the nerves that Johnny is finding maddening enough to drive him to pluck at the affected areas? If such is the case, perhaps anti-inflammatories and nerve pain relief meds might help?

 

[Kentuckienne]

If interested, I found the coolest web page about bacterial pathogens. Complete with lots of electron microscopy.
Gram-Negative Bacteria » Pathogen Profile Dictionary

 

[Eitak579]

I know you will get replies from Ekkie parronts but in the meantime I would cut the pellets and work on more veggies than fruits, reduce that down. Working on the principle that it could be a gradual build up and when that reaches a point you get symptoms...

Excellent advice. I am not familiar with Goldennobles specifically, but pellets in general do tend to have a history of causing toe-tap and wing-flip in ekkies. You might want to try dropping them from the diet and see if it makes a difference over the next few days.

It's a shame that your CAV is out of town, as hearing a vet proclaim that something is "just in the bird's head" and then refuse to consider any issues other than the fecal abnormalities would completely shatter any confidence I might have had in her. It indicates a dangerous close-mindedness that I see as a red flag even in the most knowledgeable of vets.

Wish I had a better idea of what fat, gram positive rods might mean in a fecal sample. Please keep us updated, especially once you follow up with your own vet.

I'd also increase the shower frequency since it seemed to provide at least temporary relief.

As you've read my thread about Maya, I wonder what the regular CAV might think of the possibility that the plucking in this situation might not resemble when maya was picking at her foot? Namely that something is causing a tingling n the nerves that Johnny is finding maddening enough to drive him to pluck at the affected areas? If such is the case, perhaps anti-inflammatories and nerve pain relief meds might help?

Thank you for the reply and advice.
I don't give the Goldenobles on the weekend because we're home and we don't cage him, he's out in the house or the Pak o Bird with us and he hasn't had pellets since Friday 7/21. I didn't give any this week and just in case I'm giving something else he's sensitive to, I've cut out the chop and have been sticking to our fresh garden's kale, zucchini, squash, peppers and an occasional apple slice but did give him some of a hard boiled quail egg last night. I also baked and ground eggshell to add to the veggies just in case some how I messed up and he has a calcium deficiency.

Any ideas how long it takes for the system to "flush" a sensitive item? I've added a very small amount of ACV to his water for the last two mornings hoping it can only help??

He's still wing flipping and itching but not pulling many more of the down feathers (I'm hoping it's not just because he probably has very few left ). He's getting a shower morning and night and it does seem to help.

The "new" CAV office called this evening to check in, I let the tech know that with the antibiotic and probiotic things really haven't changed much. He does seem a little more energetic but something is definitely still off. I asked her if she could have the vet explain the unusual gram positive rods they found in his fecal sample; when I asked in the office she didn't really offer an explanation other than it was not usual. The tech said to expect a call from the vet in the morning.

My regular CAV should be back hopefully mid next week, she's fantastic but still not an Eclectus specialist. Rural Northeastern PA has next to nothing in the bird world so I have to drive up to NY (still pretty rural!) for each appointment. It's worth it but still doesn't offer the experience and insight of some of the larger city vets. I'll definitely bring up some of the other possibilities with her and discuss some of the information you've experienced and shared.

Thank you all again for the advice, it is SUPER appreciated

 

[Anansi]

As long as you're already traveling a ways, here is the info for my ekkies' CAV:

Dr. Kenneth Dazen
Animal & Bird Health Care Center & Hospital
1785 Springdale Road
Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08003

He's a fantastic vet and knowledgeable about eclectus parrots. Might be worth swinging by him and getting his take on Johnny's situation.

Hang in there. You're really doing a great job trying to get to the bottom of this. I'll keep Johnny and my thoughts and prayers.

 

[Kiwibird]

Just want to chime in as I also use small quantities of Golden Obles in Kiwis foraging because they are made of real, organic, identifiable ingredients and aren't perishable. I remember a long time ago hearing something about them having a higher protein content than other pellets and that being of potential concern for some parrots. I can't say Kiwi (amazon) has ever had any issues eating a few of them here or there, but ekkies are so sensitive dietarily. I do not remember where I heard it and am not 100% certain it is true or not.

If that is true it is possible that a higher than necessary protein content could have thrown off some kind of balance in his body leading to bacterial overgrowth. Parrots are fruit eaters and don't require large amounts of protein in their diet. Ekkies are the most dietarily sensitive parrots I know of. May be worth bringing the container into the vet to have them look over the nutritional analysis. I hope Johnny's regular vet can identify the issue and help him feel better soon!

 

[Eitak579]

Just want to chime in as I also use small quantities of Golden Obles in Kiwis foraging because they are made of real, organic, identifiable ingredients and aren't perishable. I remember a long time ago hearing something about them having a higher protein content than other pellets and that being of potential concern for some parrots. I can't say Kiwi (amazon) has ever had any issues eating a few of them here or there, but ekkies are so sensitive dietarily. I do not remember where I heard it and am not 100% certain it is true or not.

If that is true it is possible that a higher than necessary protein content could have thrown off some kind of balance in his body leading to bacterial overgrowth. Parrots are fruit eaters and don't require large amounts of protein in their diet. Ekkies are the most dietarily sensitive parrots I know of. May be worth bringing the container into the vet to have them look over the nutritional analysis. I hope Johnny's regular vet can identify the issue and help him feel better soon!

Thank you so much for this input.
1. This is great and interesting information, Quinoa is the first ingredient and definitely high in protein- beans are also a prominent presence so I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct.
I love how fresh goldenobles smell and feel good about giving them to Johnny for a supplement and (small quantity) foraging treat. But pellets have always been a quick culprit to Ekkie issues and I've taken them out of the equation for the moment.

2. The CAV seemed to me, very pushy about increasing protein- it was one of two directions listed on the follow-up. Not just protein in general, but complete proteins (animal protein). I mentioned I give chicken breast and hardboiled egg without yolk in moderation. She seemed very upset I didn't give with the yolk. I remember members of this forum and on an Eclectus facebook page noting that their young birds developed high cholesterol and possible related heart issues after regular years of full egg consumption. Yolk has so many nutrients but after reading some of those accounts, decided that we'd make up those nutrients elsewhere. Her response was that eggs don't have as much cholesterol now as they used to

He does seem to be improving slowly. He's still picking but the wing flipping today is getting to be less and less, the toe tapping has completely ceased. I don't know what is helping. I'm keeping up with the antibiotics, probiotics, ACV, exclusion of chop/goldenobles and limiting to fresh garden veggies (still not complete nutrition for long term) and daily showers.

The Vet office called today and offered to provide a more in depth report of the odd fecal sample, I should receive it email or snail mail, I haven't received the email so guessing they put it in the post. I'm really looking forward to seeing it an hoping it provides some answers.

Thanks again to everyone

 

[plumsmum2005]

You may find this interesting? https://www.thespruce.com/are-eggs-good-for-my-bird-390604

They do not have to be fed loads of it, a little goes a long way IMO. As it says it is 'brain food'.

There is not anything artificial in your chop is there? You don't include spinach do you?

 

[Eitak579]

Thank you for that information Plumsmum, very interesting article. The chop is a mix of different types of Sprouts (this is the bulk of the mix), Kale, Swiss Chard, acorn squash, broccoli, carrots and tops, sweet potato (cooked) radish and tops, quinoa, brown rice, flax seed, chia seed, and steel cut oats to help it dry. This is all frozen, everything else he gets fresh.
I usually put add ground and baked eggshells for some extra calcium but haven't for the last two batches (thinking the greens and cuttle bone in his cage would be enough).

Thankfully all of his symptoms have ceased, going on day two now. Thank you all again for the advice and positive thoughts, I'm waiting for the detailed fecal analysis from the vet, they offered to snail mail it. I'll share it if it contains any good or telling information.

 

[plumsmum2005]

So pleased that your little guy is Ok, must be so irritating for them?

 

[Anansi]

So glad the symptoms have ceased. Remember to keep a detailed diary of what you removed and when from his diet to help you pinpoint exactly what the culprit was.