Ug, Not again x___x

[IndySE]

Just when I was doubting our little Christmas fiasco was a thing of the past, Kermit greeted me home today with a birdie seizure. When she had one last Christmas, we had her fully assessed by an avian vet and her blood work, fecal, & gram stain all came back normal. There's no clear sign what's causing it -- last Christmas we suspected potentially the Xmas lights did it, today my mom had dyed her hair earlier in the day (but avoiding the bird, venting the house, & her hair was since dried by the time the event happened). She's nearly 2 years old as well, so I'm contemplating if these seizures could be related to a hormone imbalance from puberty. There's no other changes (i.e. diet, droppings, behavior).

I'll probably be calling the vet to note this in her medical record, but otherwise I don't think I'll be bringing her in this time. She's had a full panel blood work within the last two months with no conclusive results, so it would be much the same in this case. I'm just a little frustrated I guess :I I'll be keeping an eye out for any other change in symptoms.

 

[itchyfeet]

Argh, that sucks. I'm so sorry to hear it.
I totally get where you are coming from with not going to the vet this time. I went through a period fo having seizures and we were advised a set of circumstances as to when to seek medical advice. Essentially, it was only if they were different/prolonged. I know I'm comparing apples with chocolate cupcakes here, but a seizure on it's own is still just a symptom.

Along with letting the vet know it's happened again, I'd start a personal record of food diary, behaviours, weather...random tidbits incase there is some kind of pattern.

How worrying - good luck! Thinking of you.

 

[texsize]

Did your vet check for heavy metal poisoning?

texsize

 

[IndySE]

itchyfeet; no thank you, that helps. The frustrating thing about seizures is sometimes people and animals just get them with no clear underlying reason, but are perfectly healthy otherwise. I hope that's the case here ! The diary is a good idea. I'll have to come up with a good template that covers a wide range of potential triggers.

texsize; Yes and no. I brought up the concern with my vet with her first seizure. Technically they just did a full panel, but heavy metal poisoning would cause a strain her organs, which the blood panel did not indicate. She's had no strange droppings, lethargy beyond the seizures, or extreme weight change which is typical of heavy metal poisoning. Her main cage is getting old, and I'm contemplating a new one just to be on the safe side if it's getting rust or something, but most signs point this is not the case. I'm just stumped.

 

[wrench13]

My Dad had epilepsy the whole latter half of his life. They never figured out from what, but treated it with drugs that were marginally effective. He eventually has to quit his profession as an architectual engineer( working on the high beams on skyscrapers because he threw a fit on the 45th floor). He learned to live with it and so did we. Kermit may just have to live with it too. Dad lived into his 70's. Maybe Kermie will too! Good Luck

 

[Carl_Power]

Al is making alot of sence to me. I told you that i had them as a child but they just stopped as i hit young adult hood. Maybe your lil guys will too. All i know is being too hot can set them off and epilepsy as Al said.

I would contact the vet one more time x

 

[IndySE]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I did call the vet about this episode to update in her record & we'll see if he gets a chance to call me back.

I've been doing as much research as I can about seizures to see if I can at least get somewhere. It was a grand mal seizure and the first lasted close to a minute while the second was a little shorter than that. It doesn't seem to be a food allergy, because I've fed the stuff I feed her now since I've had her (Harrison pellets, fruit & veggie mash, kale, water, etc). I also don't think it's heavy metal poisoning because I don't see any chips on the bars of her cage nor has she lost any weight. I'm contemplating if she might have some kind of vitamin deficiency. The vet ran a blood panel on her for her last visit, but because she's a small bird, they technically do not run a "full panel" as they do with larger birds due to less blood. What they did test for showed up within normal range, but this was her first blood test as well so I don't have a baseline to compare against. I'm considering a UV lamp in case she might have a vitamin D3 deficiency. Or even just making sure she's outside in direct sunlight for a few minutes everyday... I'm stumped why it's occurring now after having her for almost 2 years, but it's the closest I can figure. Maybe the onset of puberty is a factor as well ?

In addition, I'm considering some changes to her cage in case she ever has one in her cage. In humans, I was surprised to learn that the odds of having a 3rd seizure after having a 2nd seizure is about 70% so I feel I really need to prepare for the third. Last time, I tried to rearrange all the objects in her cage to be much lower but it seemed to cause her a lot of stress; she'd just climb to the highest point in her cage and ignore all the fun toys that were lower on her cage. I really want to avoid stressing her out. My mom had an idea of making a "net" for her, similar to a trapeze artist, that I could put on the lower half of her cage. I know how to make cargo nets, and I could order some hemp rope and make several I could change out every few days. I'm just not sure if this would also pose a danger, since normally with these kinds of nets you have to watch that parrots don't catch their toes in the net & monitor for chewing.

 

[LordTriggs]

I would also look into possible calcium deficiency, maybe just get a little calcium powder to sprinkle on the food or offer some eggs shells to see if that's part of it?

As for safety when falling I would opt to put a towel or something on the bottom of the cage just to offer some padding. Thankfully a cage fall is never too far

 

[IndySE]

Thank you for that thought. I explored more that line of thought and discovered a vitamin D3 deficiency is normally tied with poor calcium absorption. I do know her blood panel tested for calcium and found it normal, but without a baseline to compare against anything is possible.

I do have a bit of cuttlebone I can scrape into her food. I'm just a little wary of using any kind of supplement without a vet telling me so. Calcium isn't one of those things you can overdose on with just a small sprinkle, right ? Lately I've been offering a lot of kale, so hopefully that helps her out regardless.

 

[LordTriggs]

to end up with Hyperglycemia (too much calcium) you would need a lot of extra calcium for it to manifest. Scraping a little cuttle bone sounds like a good plan. It might be an idea to fire an email over to your vet saying you're going to up the calcium a little just as an attempt to try combating the seizures. A lamp might be an idea, considering how this has started over the winter months perhaps the lack of light is what pushed him over the edge

 

[IndySE]

Again, thank you I'll be talking to my vet first before I do anything drastic, but you're right to point out that both instances have occurred during winter. I live in southern California, land of the eternal sunshine, but winter hits everywhere so it's still a possibility I can't ignore.

 

[BirdNerdPHL]

My popcorn has epilepsy for unknown reasons. If it’s becoming a repeated thing, and if it really is grand mal, I strongly suggest a blood test after each seizure and taking regular anti-seizure medication. I had popcorn for almost 3 years before she had any indications of epilepsy. We went through all the different tests, and spent lots of time and money and extra stress for her in the hospital, and what it came down to was that was that from what we could tell by doing all reasonable and non-invasive tests, she had epilepsy. She now has Medicine she takes two times a day that I inject into a grape. It’s become a routine, And she has been on the medicine for close to five years, and she very rarely has an episode. When she does they are nowhere near as extreme, the Postictal stage is nowhere near as long, and she is a generally happier bird. I will say that my other bird Eli gets jealous of popcorn‘s medicine grape and so every morning and night they both get a grape and we call it taking our medicine. She has had no personality changes or side effects from the medication, and over time she has actually gone down in dosage. For her, leaving her wings unclipped also helps because she feels less trapped when she has a seizure and so she panics less and it doesn’t get as bad. I hope this helps. I understand firsthand the fear of giving medication that will be needed on a permanent basis to these tiny ones. I haven’t regretted it for minute. It gave me my baby girl back.

Lauren

Popcorn:

Eli:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EllenD]

I don't know if you have found the cause of Kermit's seizures yet, but I can tell you that it's a very frustrating situation in most all cases, because it's so difficult to discover what the cause is/was, and so many times they do it once, twice, or maybe a few times, and then it never happens again.

I wanted to comment on the Vitamin D3 deficiency causing her lack of absorption of calcium...that does not usually apply to birds or mammals at all, and if it is the cause of a calcium deficiency it's typically related to another metabolic disease that is actually causing all Vitamin D to not be absorbed. As far as Vitamin D3 deficiency being a common thing, that typically only applies to reptiles and amphibians, and this is the major reason that I strongly am against any type of UVB light for birds or mammals. It does little good but can cause horrible eye and skin issues, as well as blindness in birds and mammals.

Birds, mammals, etc. that are living in captivity don't get their Vitamin D3 from natural sunlight obviously, they get it from their food. So if a bird in captivity is getting a healthy, varied diet consisting of commercially bought pellets, seed mixes, and fresh veggies and fruits, unless they have a larger metabolic disease going on they don't need natural sunlight/artificial UVB light in order to make their own Vitamin D3...And that's the HUGE difference between reptiles/amphibians and birds, mammals, people, etc. is that while reptiles and amphibians absolutely must get Vitamin D3 from either natural sunlight or an artificial UVB light and not from their food, birds and mammals don't typically make their own Vitamin D3, they get enough from their fortified diets. Reptiles and amphibians (most of them) absolutely CANNOT MAKE their own Vitamin D3 without ample amounts of UVB light, as they do not absorb it from their food. And without enough UVB light, hence enough Vitamin D3, they cannot absorb Calcium, and their bodies start to leech the calcium out of their bones, causing Metabolic Bone Disease. Birds and mammals don't work this way, and thus artificial UVB light is not necessary in order for them to get enough Vitamin D3, nor does this impact their absorption of Calcium...that is unless their diet is horrible or they have a larger metabolic disease that is effecting nutrient absorption/processing...

 

[IndySE]

Thank you for sharing that. Popcorn is adorable ! It's been almost 5 months since her last episode. I did get a full panel bloodwork done her and my vet did not find anything amiss. I don't know if she's epileptic or if something else set her off. I did later discover some incense sticks in the bathroom which wasn't too far from where she had her first seizure. They've been promptly removed. The second time, she was too near my mom who had just dyed her hair. I'm hoping these were the underlying causes and good vigilance of her environment will prevent any future seizures. She otherwise has shown no other troubling symptoms that I can see -- good appetite, good quality droppings, lots of energy, and a relatively stable weight (sometimes I don't measure at the same time of day which can impact her weight, but within +/- 3 grams she's in the same range).

Thank you EllenD for mentioning that birds don't need a UVB light. I've seen a lot of people using them with their birds and I was seriously considering buying one. I'll stick instead to some outside time (in her cage) & making sure she's getting lots of veggies. To be on the safe side, I have been adding a little bit of cuttle bone shavings to her pellet mix. As a hen, I figured a little extra calcium would be good for her anyways. If at all possible, do you have any journal articles siting more depth into what you said?

 

[GaleriaGila]

After a seizure (lasted 5 minutes, left leg weakness, stupor, blinking eyes), my wonderful Certified Avian Vet did blood work that showed the Rb's kidney function to be a bit off, and his red blood cell count a bit high. Both of which suggest poor blood oxygenation, or heart troule, for which he prescribed Vasotec. After two weeks, kidneys are normal, red blood cells not... we increased Vasotec dosage. No more seizures, so far.
Vet says the Rb is an old bird, after all (although you'd never guess it from his perpetual motion and noise), and he wasn't too worried about it at this point.
Hoping this helps.
So stressfull, I know.

 

[GaleriaGila]

P.S.
I have Googled "parrot seizures" plus 'vasotec', 'blood panel', 'hematocrit', 'kidney function', etc., etc., and have found a lot of reading, some scholarly, peer-reviewed, much anecdotal, but all interesting...
Best of luck.
Thanks for posting.