Training Advice I received

[StephenAndKyleigh]

I spoke with a gentlemen today that has been training macaws for various reasons for 25 years. This is the advice he gave me:

"I feed my bird once a day. During the day all they get is treats from training. That way their training response is accurate. Then at night, since they are a bit hungry, I feed them their regular meal."

How do we feel about that?

 

[Anansi]

I don't like it.

Will it yield quicker results? Indubitably. No one can deny this. What motivates more strongly than hunger? His technique makes indisputable, logical sense.

So what's my problem?

The primary motivator of my relationship with my birds is NOT logic. It's love. I love my birds, and I would never withhold food from them for the purposes of expedited training.

Now, I'm not saying he doesn't love his birds. Just that MY love for MY birds wouldn't allow for that kind of technique.

 

[Dinosrawr]

100% agree with you, Stephen. Think of it this way...

If you're starving and someone asks you to do it, are you doing it because you want to or because you know that if you don't you won't get food? Positive reinforcement teaches our companions that when they do what they want, they get rewarding for it... and eventually doing it can become a reward in and of itself. They motivate themselves. With his method, give them a full stomach and chances are they won't listen nearly as well.

 

[Aquila]

It's one thing to have meals through foraging activities which is kind of training, that would be fine because they can seek out food as they please.

My personal opinion, for "serious" training would be small meal in the morning, treats throughout the day, and small meal in the evening, depending on what kind of activities. Obviously higher energy activities would require a heartier meal.

I definitely can't stand behind starving an animal into obedience, it never works how you want it to, for any animal.

 

[Kiwibird]

I am actually torn on this. Parrots are not domesticated, they are only a few generations at most out of the wild and still retain many of their natural tendencies and expectations of life. Hunger is what motivates wild parrots to forage and to move from place to place to seek food and I'm sure they don't always find a meal at all on any given day. I think they are severely overfed in domestic homes as most people give them a brimming full dish of food 2X a day (with food available 24/7) and allow them to eat as much as they want. I don't think this is any healthier or good for them mentally than one small meal a day that essentially leaves them starving into being motivated to train. I think there is a balance between feeding enough they are satisfied at the end of the meal, yet not allowing for them to just stuff their face all day long so they are still food motivated enough during the day to work for a little more (be it through foraging or trick training).

BTW, Kiwi's food is always portioned and removed after he's done eating (I do not believe in free feeding). He only has foraging and treats during the day, though he does get a AM and PM meal. There have been days I've left his dish in, yet he still seems to prefer to forage for his treats or train for them. It's a natural and normal thing for them to want to do, and many birds (given the opportunity) do seem to prefer working for their food. Of course, I still like to make sure he gets 2 'free' meals a day, but his daytime snacking is always earned food. I don't find encouraging his natural behaviors, enticing him to be more active and stimulating him mentally to be a 'cruel' thing to do (when done within reason).

 

[JerseyWendy]

Sounds like something the 'Parrot Wizard' would say, and I am absolutely against it!

 

[Anansi]

I am actually torn on this. Parrots are not domesticated, they are only a few generations at most out of the wild and still retain many of their natural tendencies and expectations of life. Hunger is what motivates wild parrots to forage and to move from place to place to seek food and I'm sure they don't always find a meal at all on any given day. I think they are severely overfed in domestic homes as most people give them a brimming full dish of food 2X a day (with food available 24/7) and allow them to eat as much as they want. I don't think this is any healthier or good for them mentally than one small meal a day that essentially leaves them starving into being motivated to train. I think there is a balance between feeding enough they are satisfied at the end of the meal, yet not allowing for them to just stuff their face all day long so they are still food motivated enough during the day to work for a little more (be it through foraging or trick training).

BTW, Kiwi's food is always portioned and removed after he's done eating (I do not believe in free feeding). He only has foraging and treats during the day, though he does get a AM and PM meal. There have been days I've left his dish in, yet he still seems to prefer to forage for his treats or train for them. It's a natural and normal thing for them to want to do, and many birds (given the opportunity) do seem to prefer working for their food. Of course, I still like to make sure he gets 2 'free' meals a day, but his daytime snacking is always earned food. I don't find encouraging his natural behaviors, enticing him to be more active and stimulating him mentally to be a 'cruel' thing to do (when done within reason).

Ah, April, but your method and this trainer's method have enormous differences. What you are describing resembles more what Aquila outlined in her post, which is fine.

A meal is still provided at the 2 bookend portions of the day, with care taken not to overfeed. And while you're not free feeding, foraging opportunities are provided throughout the day. To me, that differs quite a bit from essentially setting up a system whereby a bird has to perform tricks for you in order to be fed more than one small meal in a day.

I do agree with you that most domesticated parrots are overfed. I actually don't free feed my birds, either. I don't have a problem with those who do, as I know many who do so successfully, but I have 2 ekkies who would eat themselves into feathery food comas if given the chance. So they get one meal in the morning, and one at night. The rest comes from treats during training or foraging. Their activity is maintained, leaving them healthy and fit, they don't live constantly on the razor's edge of starvation, and yet they do have that motivational edge they need for training between meals.

Believe me, though, both Jolly and Bixby are poster children for why the trainer's method would be tempting. For Bixby, I remember there was one night where we were all late getting home from somewhere, and for Jolly, it was actually yesterday when I woke up late for the morning feeding. Now, both birds love being on me. And I sometimes have to repeat myself when I want them to fly AWAY from me, say to a perch, their cage, or to another person.

WELL...

On these two, obviously rare, occasions, you should see how responsive they were while waiting for their food to get prepped! (I had a bowl of pomegranates on hand in both cases.) Forget repeating myself! Suddenly a wordless gesture in the general direction of the perch was enough to send them rapidly flying in response! Or spoken word without gesturing! Heck, in Bixby's case even a nod of my head was enough! Smh. Little boogers understand exactly what I want. Whether by word or gesture, together or separately.

This effect is the exact reason the trainer does what he does. I just dislike the idea of my birds acting out of a desperate NEED to eat, you know?

(I didn't mention Maya, btw, as she is admirably consistent. She's "me" motivated, and treats don't change that even when she's hungry. Hahaha! Such a sweet girl.)

 

[StephenAndKyleigh]

Loving the comments. I'll share my final opinion in a bit. What about this comment

"Birds spend 75% of their day foraging for food. Sometimes it's a hit. Sometimes it's a miss. It's not uncommon for them to go to bed hungry. We aren't doing them any favors by leaving them food out all day, not letting them fly, and dumbing them down in their cages. In your case with Kyleigh, yes..Free feed her. Because she's a baby. But at a year..you can apply these principals."

 

[Dinosrawr]

In the wild they are taught by their parents how to successfully forage, locate food, and determine what is or isn't safe to eat. They're taught survival behaviour and their instincts develop in ways that are crucial for them to live day-to-day. The average macaw in the wild lives to be only 30... their domestic counter parts can live to be 100.

IMHO, the trainer is comparing apples to oranges. A macaw in a domestic environment has never once been taught to "survive". In fact, living with us is 100% against their natural instincts for survival. If he wanted to emulate natural behaviour aside from flying, he wouldn't even be able to interact with his birds (ex. birds being rehabbed to be put back into the wild).

I agree that birds need to experience natural behaviours like flying and mental stimulation, but not at the cost of a healthy meal. And a bird doesn't simply "dumb down" in a cage, either. They don't regress in intelligence because they become pampered, they just exhibit intelligence that is relatable to our lives and our definition of a "smart", well trained animal.

Birds in domestic environments depend on US to keep them safe, fed, and entertained because that is quite literally the way we raise them to be. This trainer's heart seems to be in the right place, but just like many misled breeders and trainers he isn't applying ALL of the factors - instead he's using wild counterparts as an excuse to use starvation as a training method because he likes the results. Some of the best trained animals in the world live in a place of luxury with full bellies every night. Parrots included.

 

[Birdman666]

Now, I've worked with them at feeding time BEFORE meals, when they're hungry... which has the EXACT SAME RESULT WITHOUT STARVING THEM!

And I've made them work for their favorite treats. i.e. if it's something the bird really likes, he only gets that one for a training treat.

BUT I have NEVER, and would NEVER withhold meals.

Even if it works. I wouldn't do it.

 

[Anansi]

Excellent response, Chantal, and right on target. I agree completely.

Of course we should avoid overfeeding, and provide mental stimulation for our birds so that they're not being "dumbed down" in their cages. And I've always been a proponent of keeping birds flighted when at all possible. All of this can be achieved without employing starvation methodology.

 

[Anansi]

Now, I've worked with them at feeding time BEFORE meals, when they're hungry... which has the EXACT SAME RESULT WITHOUT STARVING THEM!

And I've made them work for their favorite treats. i.e. if it's something the bird really likes, he only gets that one for a training treat.

BUT I have NEVER, and would NEVER withhold meals.

Even if it works. I wouldn't do it.

EXactly. Just because it's effective doesn't make it right.

 

[MonicaMc]

In a home environment, I don't feel that feeding regime is appropriate.

If we're talking about a zoo or a show of some sort... well, that could be a different story, especially depending upon how involved that animal is in a performance. It's not to say that it's bad, but if a bird is full, they may be less likely to perform throughout the day, so if they get parts of their diet fed to them throughout the day as part of their performance, it may not be all that bad after all.

 

[StephenAndKyleigh]

I think a few people were pretty spot on here. I think a "training diet" for a parrot is very effective. However, the way the diet is approached is what matters. Lately, I have been training Kyleigh (blue and gold macaw) before her breakfast. I've done this for about ten days now. Her recall response is better and she is more attentive to me, even with distractions. I don't train long, about 5-7 minutes max, but I really aim for 5 minutes. After she is done training, she chomps down on breakfast. Since Kyleigh is just now 6 months and is at the end of weaning, I still leave food in her cage all day. Some of the food is "free" and some of it is in foraging treats. However, I leave enough for her to get full enough for one more training session before dinner. Every day around 7 we do another 5-7 minute training session. And then she gets dinner. Then at night she gets a feeding if she wants or warm birdie bread.

I don't see this as starving her, but I wanted to make sure I am on the right track as far as being a good parrot owner comes. Training has seriously become a passion of mine and as some of you know I am looking into learning, getting certifications, and etc to make this a career some how.

Thoughts?

 

[Anansi]

What you are doing isn't remotely in the realm of starvation. It's just fine. My training sessions are usually around 30 minutes and take place either midway between their two main meals, or just before dinner. (They both have really good attention spans, which is why we'll go so long at times. Keep in mind, though, that I alternate training lessons. Like a flight recall drill followed by practicing turning in place, followed by learning to put things in my hand, followed by harness training, etc...)

Your method sounds good to me.

 

[Dinosrawr]

Sounds good to me, too! I use high reward treats for training, so I don't often have problems with motivation with my two. But food wise I'm not a free feeder and likely never will be. I leave enough for my birds to finish everything and be full, but never so much that they could over indulge. I have very "controlled" amounts of food (ie. they get 20% of their body weight in chop in the morning and a specific number of tsp or 1/2 tsp of specific pellets).

Using specific times strategically isn't starving, it's working smart as a trainer. I feed my chop in the morning when they're hungriest so that they're way more likely to eat it all and take in all those healthy veggies and fruits. As long as your bird is a healthy weight and isn't starving throughout the entire day, then I think you're fine. Withholding food because you can is different from choosing a time period to train before giving food.