Thoughts on step up issues?

[chris-md]

Parkers really been acting up lately, and I'm at a bit of a loss trying to work it all out, and it's escalating.

The second biggest challenge is his relative hesitance to step up over the last few weeks. Sometimes he readily does it, but more often then not I have to push on his chest and force him to step up. My question here is: what's the line between letting him come when he's ready (I.e. Just having a grumpy day and not in the mood), and simply letting him run roughshod over me and giving him too much control? I ask because I'm getting to where if I don't get a step up within ten seconds; I walk away thinking he's just not in the mood. But this is multiple times a day thinf that at this point so I'm worried about sending the wrong signal.

My single biggest problem I'm having trouble interpreting is this biting. It started out occasionally nipping my partner, but in the last week even I'm having to fend him off a couple times a day with the back of my hand. It's always surrounding getting him to step up from his cage or playstand. He's also started lunging at me through the cage bars ALWAYS when I set him down in the cage and walk away, especially if I plop him down in front of his food dish. This lunging aggression subsides after a couple minutes. No blood drawn, but he's tried hard enough that there is potential.

To emphasize, he is in and out of this behavior daily., no pattern to when it happens. Its basically daily, but It's not all day every day. I'm nowhere near wits end and am managing just fine so far, but I'm having trouble diagnosing the root cause and I want to nip this in the bud before I do hit wits end.

Any help on working out the cause would be most appreciative!

 

[Mango121913]

What I have done is, Mango loves pistachios, or almonds. So i would tempt him to step up while holding the nut in the other hand just out of his reach, forcing him to comply. Eventually, he just started obeying. Occasionally, he still reverts back to, no I'm not. So i just reach for rhe can and he gives in and flies to me.
As for the lunging, biting issue. My wife was having trouble with him wanting to be her boss, so she used the towel technique. When he lunged,or bit. She grabbed a towel, wrapped him up and kept her hands just out of his beak zone, holding him and explained to him she's the boss and this won't be tolerated. She held him for a couple of minutes like this, then he complied and stopped his aggressive behavior towards her rather quickly. Keep in mind, birds have their moments when they need their own space too. You will learn their body language and they learn yours.
Mango is mischievous, to say the least. Ans spoiled. He knows what's acceptable, and what's not. Watch their eyes, pinning can tell you ALOT. When Mango knows he's been busted, he will look me straight in the eye, pin his eyes, step up slowly, and say "hello"! As if that's gonna make everything ok! But he knows, keep it up and a time-out is coming! .
Key is persistence! He will comply, sometimes it may take a while but they will give in.
Been working on come commands with Mango for a while now, he's comming around, but he's still not there yet. It just takes time and LOTS of patience.
The rewards are worth it!

 

[SilverSage]

For the step up, I would go with bribery whenever possible. Offering bribes to get him to step up, and sometimes hiding a treat so he doesnt know you have it, and then giving it to him if he steps up willingly so he doesnt think just because he doesnt see a treat means he wont get it.

My experience with eckies is limited, I am still learning. My friends who have eckies tell me the food aggression seems pretty universal. I have a good friend whose eckie is a lunging biting killing machine at meal time, and a kissing snuggling fly-accross-the-room-for-love bug all the rest of the time. mine are not cuddly or nice (rescues in bad shape)but they are pretty nasty about the food and will lunge at the cage bars but are much less aggressive away from the cage.

I'm working on counteracting that strong eckie drive to find "one perfect place" and defend it to the death. I'll put more on that later once I see if it helps or makes things worse.

 

[Aquila]

Go to pick him up just for the sake of picking him up. Hold him for a minute or two, maybe give scratches or a treat, and then put him back down. I have to bribe my BFA constantly to step up onto a dowel (he's been biting really bad lately so I don't want to stick my hand in the cage.)

I'll lure him onto the dowel, treat, walk around, treat, put him back in or on the cage, and treat. When he's tired, he's much easier to handle, so you might need to take that into account too, getting him some exercise so he's too tired to protest!

 

[DexMom]

My Dexter used to be a step-up machine. Would step up every time for anyone. Now, not so much. He's least likely to comply when he's on the play top of his cage. I know it's a territorial thing. Sometimes he just runs away from me, and other times he lunges and growls and/or bites.

I'm in a similar state of not knowing when to push it and when to let it go and leave him be. I'm getting concerned about giving him too much control. I feel like he needs to step up when told to do so. I know birds aren't all about obedience, but there are times when he needs to be put into his cage so we can leave the house or other situations when I need him on my hand to keep him safe. I just don't know how to get there!

Once again, I'll be stalking your thread, Chris. Maybe our ekkies are long lost brothers, because they seem to be giving us similar challenges at the same time.

 

[Dinosrawr]

I think in cases like this it's really good to have a bird stick trained. Avery my GCC is pretty unreliable for stepping up. She's gotten better, but she's the kind of bird where if I train her with it she'll get angry and bite me. So laddering/bribing doesn't always work with her. For some odd reason though, once I trained her to step up onto a stick she will ALWAYS step up onto it. It's seems almost instinctual for her to do it. I think it's also a bit more natural for her. If she doesn't step up for my hand, then at the very least she's gotta step up for the stick. But each bird is different and responds to different things.

I do agree that sometimes finding balance between when to let a bird be or when to positively reinforce behaviour can be difficult. Eventually you learn when they're just being stubborn or when they really are having a day... but it takes time. I've had Avery for over two years and I'm still learning [emoji28]

 

[SailBoat]

Lots of great suggestion from other members and more specific, suggestions from ekkies owners.

What I am seeing in your post is that you have lost consistancy in your request and follow-though regarding your request for step-up. Each time you vary, you change the ground rules. Very quickly, there is no pattern to either the request, follow-though and whether step-up was even wanted. Surprise, the parrot does not step-up.

I recommend that you review the information provided in the first 'threads' found in the ekkies forum. Its back to basics and a fresh start.

The 'Step-Up" request is the most important interaction between human and parrot. It sets the foundation for all the other interactions. When 'Step-Up' fails other behavior problems quickly rise to the surface - as you are seeing. I will admit that ekkies have their own thing going, but as you are seeing, behavior problems are compounding.

Whether with a stick or hand, getting your parrot to 'Step-Up' is an interaction that we as humans get lazy about. Whether it is the command, the follow-though, and/or the move away. It must be practiced and maintained as other interactions are developed.

In addition, at some point, you will need to move your parrot quickly (emergency, etc...) and a clear and well practiced 'Step-up' during a highly emotionally charged moment will need to occur!

 

[Anansi]

There is a wide range of opinions on how much we should impose our will on a parrot versus respecting said parrot's wishes.

My thought on the matter is that the two need not be mutually exclusive. That is to say, when I train my flock, my aim is not domination and subjugation of their will. Rather, I seek to dovetail their desires with my own. You get the best results by getting your bird to want to do as you ask. Then it becomes less a matter of compulsion than mutual assent.

Part of accomplishing this is to set up positive associations in Parker's mind between doing as you ask and good things happening. Achieving this is not much different from the association that was formed with Pavlov's dogs and the ringing of the bell. After consistency between the ringing of the bell and presentation of the food was properly established, the sound of the bell alone was enough to trigger a salivary hunger response... even absent the food. Same principle applies. Step-up, treat and praise. Step-up, treat and praise. Step-up, treat and praise. Eventually, the act of stepping up becomes a pleasurable act in and of itself, even absent the treat.

Once the association has been forged, only occasional reinforcement is needed. And, if you are teaching him other things, eventually you won't need treats for step-up at all. Why? Because stepping up leads to other good things, like training or cuddling. So from that initial foundation of stepping up, a number of other, more involved, training disciplines can begin. And by keeping their intellects engaged, they'll look forward to stepping up and working more with you.

Now, in the beginning, a little strategy is also called for. You've likely heard the saying, "Don't give an order you know your troops won't follow"? Same holds true, here. When you're still in the process of building this association, try to avoid situations where Parker might defy you. Watch his body language. If he seems to be in a particularly obstinate or ornery mood, don't pick then to have him step-up. Because step-up should not be optional, and you don't want him getting comfortable with the idea that he can refuse.

Once the association has become strong enough, however, strategy becomes less important. Because by then, being with you will be exactly what he wants, too! (Of course, consideration will always have to be given to any birds who are in the midst of an extreme hormonal shift in behavior. But this is where stick training might come in handy.)

 

[Anansi]

...I'm working on counteracting that strong eckie drive to find "one perfect place" and defend it to the death. I'll put more on that later once I see if it helps or makes things worse.

You know, Dani, for what it's worth, I try not to so much counteract or sublimate instinctual drives as redirect them. For instance, Maya has a strong drive to display aggressively and lunge once food is in her dish. But she also loves the heck out of me and has been conditioned not to bite me. Yet, when I'm near her food dish, she is compelled to do her little death dance. I haven't discouraged it. Rather, it's become a bit of a game. Every time I serve her food, she rears to strike. I then stick my little finger between the bars and say, "beak five!" (This would've been suicidal in the first month I had her.) She lunges full speed, then pulls up short at the last instant and gently beaks my finger. It's a silly little ritual we have, but she is now visibly uncomfortable if ever I forget to get my "beak five" before she eats. Lol! Point is, if my goal had been to stop that display, I'm sure I'd have failed miserably. It's hardwired. But redirecting it into a silly game or ritual? Ah! Now that's doable.

It is with this philosophy that I've side-stepped her territorial cage behavior. I can do anything I want in her cage, without fear of being bitten.

 

[chris-md]

Guys I just want to say a quick thank you for all the thoughtful responses above. I have a houseguest this weekend (making things much worse, Parker does NOT like him and is basically unhandleable while this person is in the house). So I don't have time to reply but will come back to this in the next day to two.

 

[chris-md]

Hi I'm back, finally; crazy week!

The last 2 weeks have been very revealing in understanding Parkers inner workings. He has definite opinions about people. Our friend who stayed with us was a very large man with a loud, large personality...Parker does NOT like people like this. He is so scared of them, this flightless bird will and has launched himself successfully flying halfway across the house. Landing cleanly on the SIDE of the cage...

Mom and grandma visit after friend leaves, he can't get enough of them. This closet talker, who only talks when no ones around, would not stop talking and whistling while they were here. They fell in love with him

And where my partner is concerned, he generally falls on the less than thrilled but will tolerates side of the spectrum with Parker. Picking him up from the cage is not generally possible, but he will readily accept treats and I can place Parker on him without Parker misbehaving.

So some of the issues I'm having are coming down to understanding his likes and dislikes and being more accommodating rather than demanding. When someone is over that he doesn't like, just leave him be. Partner just needs to avoid handling him in cage (he confronts Parker much better with the back of his hand when Parker bites though, I'm proud of him for that!)

 

[chris-md]

Forgive the resurrection, but I had to say thanks again here because this thread just gave me a level of comfort. Parker the last several days has been inconsistent with step ups. Mostly ignoring and having to grab his toes, but a bit of lunging too. Not really sure why, it's not hormonal. There's a lot of great info here on how I need bring things back to basics and do some rudimentary training.

I googled step up issues and this was one of the first things that came up. It's just a reminder that old threads still have a great impact.