This is why I choose to wing clip

[lisascannell]

So I normally clip Rocky's wings but his have grown out and he can fly now. I took him in the bedroom today and he decided to fly out the bedroom, down the hallway, around a corner and landed in the kitchen sink! I had just done the dishes and luckily I had emptied the water as I always do concious to never leave a hazard for my birds. If I had decided to leave the water in for an extra five minutes he could have really hurt himself.

 

[cassiepengo]

ouch thats bad! well good nothing happened,you know. poor rocky
i suppose u will clip him again?

 

[Betrisher]

I understand your reasoning, but Rocky will continue to fly and plummet like that if he never gets to gain confidence in his wings. My Beaks have had the run of my house since they arrived. I've taken them into every room and demonstrated the walls, doors, mirrors and windows to them. They had a few accidents such as you describe during the first week, but since then, they fly accurately from where they are to where they intend to go. It's no biggie for them.

The reason birds fly into windows and walls is that they are in unfamiliar territory. Once they learn the lay of the land, they are amazingly acrobatic and accurate. You should see my (rather large) Alexandrines doing wing-overs as they swoosh down my (rather small) hallway! Or see them circling my (exceedingly tiny) kitchen preparatory to landing on someone's head. LOL! I couldn't possibly deny them the joy they get from their wings! Not for anything! Of course, the best is when I call them and they fly to me simply because they want to. Nothing can beat that!

PS. Not arguing with you! Not at all! Just offering my own experience with Barney and Madge.

 

[lisascannell]

Thanks yeah I absolutely hate clipping the wings I don't like to do it at all I'm just so paranoid that something bad will happen most of my birds are not clipped but they just do a lap and return straight back to the cage.?rocky is being a bit too adventurous and I swear he does it for my attention. Betrisher I take on board what u r saying. I will give him a few weeks and see how that goes

 

[lisascannell]

And yes it's so cute and lovely to see them fly to yoy

 

[TessieB]

Wing clipping is a personal decision. I've one cockatiel who is clipped because she likes to flaunt herself over the Amazons. She's the only one clipped right now. Well, the Amazons came clipped but I can tell they've never flown anywhere in their lives. As far as those two greenie wienees are concerned, I purchased them so I can tote them around. It's such a privilege ya know.

And to be perfectly honest, when I had pet birds living in the house with me, I clipped their wings. Most likely because when I was a kid and kept a roomful of birds, I came home from school and found a blue parakeet dead in the toilet down the hall. Poor BeetleBomb had escaped his cage and took a flight he never returned from.

 

[Kiwibird]

I'm glad Rocky is ok. Betrisher does bring up a good point though. If he's never flown before and is just now learning, he does not have enough experience not to crash-land into the sink. Parrots who are experienced flyers have no issues navigating indoors. It's no tighter of a space in your home really than it is in dense rainforest. 2 of my parents birds are strong flyers who love to zoom around through the tightest spaces and do so with grace.

Then there are birds who are simply not cut out for flight, and may not have survived in the wild because they never fledged. My parents third bird is a relatively poor flyer who does not fly voluntarily. Especially after he suffered a stroke. He gets picked up round the body, taken to the edge of the kitchen (of course when nothing is cooking!) and given a toss so he has to fly the 50 or so feet in a straight line back to his cage. He gets to do that a couple times a day for exercise. He does pretty good when given the head start of being lightly tossed, but usually is very uncontrolled if he takes off by himself (like when he's scared or something). Poor old Barney can barely fly after 40 years Kiwi is clipped because he plain has no concept of flight. He sure likes to flap his wings when he's holding onto our hand for dear life, but when we tried to flight him, he dropped like a rock and looked at us as though we had thrown him to be mean He just never took flight, so we continue to clip him for safety outdoors so if he did ever get spooked or walk off his perch (which he does sometimes when excited) he wouldn't have the flight feathers he had no idea how to use and catch a gust of wind and end up petrified half to death 20' up a tree or something. Clipping is something that should be considered carefully by the owner after weighing all the pros and cons, and based on the individual bird.

 

[Betrisher]

Lisa, why don't you take Rocky for a walk around your house and show him the walls and windows? Let him touch them with his beak if he will. If there are curtains, let him feel those as well. Once he's been calmly informed of all the obstacles, he ought to do better. Another point that occurred to me is that birds need to know where they can land safely. I have perches all over my place (ie. above doorways and over bookshelves) and the birds know where they are. If Rocky knows where he can safely fly to, I bet he stops having prangs!

 

[lisascannell]

The other concern is that rocky likes to follow me and I'm worried that if I go out the back door one day he will fly after me. I just can't risk it

 

[JerseyWendy]

Lisa, I just wanted you to know that you opened a HUGE can of worms with your thread (title). This is a sizzling hot topic and often passionately (and not always civilly) debated.

We'll be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will close it as soon as we see it spiraling out of control, especially because this topic has been "discussed" too many times to count.

Clipping wings is a personal choice.

 

[mtdoramike]

I understand your reasoning, but Rocky will continue to fly and plummet like that if he never gets to gain confidence in his wings. My Beaks have had the run of my house since they arrived. I've taken them into every room and demonstrated the walls, doors, mirrors and windows to them. They had a few accidents such as you describe during the first week, but since then, they fly accurately from where they are to where they intend to go. It's no biggie for them.

The reason birds fly into windows and walls is that they are in unfamiliar territory. Once they learn the lay of the land, they are amazingly acrobatic and accurate. You should see my (rather large) Alexandrines doing wing-overs as they swoosh down my (rather small) hallway! Or see them circling my (exceedingly tiny) kitchen preparatory to landing on someone's head. LOL! I couldn't possibly deny them the joy they get from their wings! Not for anything! Of course, the best is when I call them and they fly to me simply because they want to. Nothing can beat that!

PS. Not arguing with you! Not at all! Just offering my own experience with Barney and Madge.

"The reason birds fly into windows and walls is that they are in unfamiliar territory. Once they learn the lay of the land, they are amazingly acrobatic and accurate."

Sorry, but I have to dispute this statement with my own experiences. I had a Cockatiel for several years and her wings were never clipped because I didn't believe in wing clipping. She would fly all about the house all day long and spend nights in her cage which was always open. One day, she flew and lit on my shoulder, while at the same time a vehicle passed and made a loud bang. She flew off my shoulder and right into a wall about 6-8 feet away breaking her neck.

Another two incidences were wild birds flying and playing in the front yard. Both incidences, birds flew into closed glass windows knocking the birds out. Both times I went out and got the birds and brought them into the house to keep the stray cats from getting to them. They both recovered and I released them a few hours later. I have also lost two beloved birds that I had for years out of open doors, both times when either my mother or my wife were sweeping the floor. Neither bird had ever been in the wild and there's no doubt they couldn't survive in the wild without learning this as a young bird. I never saw either bird again.

In Florida, we have snakes and hawks, which I find outside of my home constantly. So I chose to clip my birds wings after taking all of this into consideration for their safety as well as my own piece of mind because no matter how much we would like to keep them in their own environment, they are now domesticated and with any domesticated animals, there are certain boundaries. I believe if people want free flighted birds, they at the very least should teach their birds to fly and return to them commands outside, while teaching them foraging methods outside so they learn to forage for their own food, what to look for and how to get it. Then the bird isn't helpless if the unavoidable does happen and it more than likely will.

 

[Anansi]

Lisa, why don't you take Rocky for a walk around your house and show him the walls and windows? Let him touch them with his beak if he will. If there are curtains, let him feel those as well. Once he's been calmly informed of all the obstacles, he ought to do better. Another point that occurred to me is that birds need to know where they can land safely. I have perches all over my place (ie. above doorways and over bookshelves) and the birds know where they are. If Rocky knows where he can safely fly to, I bet he stops having prangs!

As always, Trish's suggestion is a good one. This is exactly what I did with Bixby when I'd first begun teaching him how to fly. I took him on repeated tours of the house, telling him which room was which and taking special care to note for him every window and mirror. And as Trish advised, I touched his beak to the glass every time, repeating "window" or "mirror" until he got the idea. I did this again and again until it was old hat for him. And now he knows the "lay of the land", so to speak.

Oh, and Lisa, your initial instinct to start working with your newly flighted bird in a smaller room was a good one. This is how I started with Bixby as well. But your best bet would be to keep the door closed while developing his flight skills. Keep in mind that birds all have to learn to fly. Until they do, they WILL crash. Getting a pair of adjustable height training stands will help enormously with this training. And once he has developed the necessary skills in that room, you can branch out into the rest of the house.

 

[Anansi]

One day, she flew and lit on my shoulder, while at the same time a vehicle passed and made a loud bang. She flew off my shoulder and right into a wall about 6-8 feet away breaking her neck...

I have also lost two beloved birds that I had for years out of open doors, both times when either my mother or my wife were sweeping the floor. Neither bird had ever been in the wild and there's no doubt they couldn't survive in the wild without learning this as a young bird. I never saw either bird again.

Unfortunately, Mike's point is also valid. If your bird is flighted, there will always be certain risks. All you can truly do is minimize these risks by doing all you can to develop their flight skills. But yes, even a skilled flier could get spooked enough to fly full tilt into a wall and break its neck. Just as a child who is a skilled and athletic runner could trip while running down the steps. It's all about minimizing risk, but in life there are no guarantees.

And while there is also the risk of your bird flying through an open door if it is flighted, the associated risks there can also be effectively minimized. First line of defense would be to try and make sure your bird is never out when the door is open. Obvious, I know, but increasingly difficult as you become more and more comfortable with having your bird out. (I've heard stories of people just walking out the front door completely oblivious to the parrot riding shotgun on their shoulder! ) It's easy to eventually just forget, and it's that tendency we have to fight.

And the second line of defense is something along the lines of what Mike suggested. Prepare your bird for the possibility of his getting out despite your best intentions. So work with recall techniques and, also vitally important, teach your fid how to fly down from a higher position. It's something we take for granted, but most birds find this to be a harder skill than simply flying up. Some fids don't return home simply because they don't have the skill set that would allow them to get back to you. (And that idea about teaching them natural foraging techniques was a good one I'd never considered. Thanks, Mike.)

But, as Wendy mentioned earlier, whether or not to clip is a personal choice. These are just my thoughts on the topic. No disrespect intended to those who do choose to clip. We all just have the birds' best interests at heart, after all.

 

[Anansi]

Here's a link to a video that I found very informative about the possibilities of indoor flight. I posted it before, a few months back, but I thought it might be worth reposting.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzyZGdMp9kM&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Parrot Training - Indoor Free Flying - DUCK!! Pet Parrot Free flight Skills and Myths - YouTube[/ame]

 

[mtdoramike]

" (I've heard stories of people just walking out the front door completely oblivious to the parrot riding shotgun on their shoulder! ) It's easy to eventually just forget, and it's that tendency we have to fight."


So true, so true, my wife quickly pointed out to me the other day when I was heading for the back door to go out back to tend to my grape vines that I had Tiki our Senegal on my shoulder as I was grabbing for the door knob. That was a close call and eventhough her wings are clipped, she can still fly for short distances and short bursts. So even being clipped is not a cure all.

 

[Kiwibird]

And while there is also the risk of your bird flying through an open door if it is flighted, the associated risks there can also be effectively minimized. First line of defense would be to try and make sure your bird is never out when the door is open. Obvious, I know, but increasingly difficult as you become more and more comfortable with having your bird out. (I've heard stories of people just walking out the front door completely oblivious to the parrot riding shotgun on their shoulder! ) It's easy to eventually just forget, and it's that tendency we have to fight.

One must be ever diligent about open windows and doors and toilet bowls and pots of boiling water ect... with flighted birds. I haven't lived with a flighted bird in years, and I still am in the habit of keeping every open source of water covered, Kiwi cannot be in the kitchen while I'm cooking on the stovetop (which he strongly disagrees with), and I'm still not fond of having the door open when he's not in his cage even though he won't be flying out it. Those are habits you MUST get into and be completely sure you do 100% of the time, or else that one time you forget will be the one time the bird decides to do something out of the ordinary that leads to injury, loss or death. I also agree recall training with a flighted bird is essential, even if you never plan to free fly them outdoors. It may be your once and only shot of getting them back if they escape, so it's WELL worth the effort IMO, and probably a good idea to work with something loud enough to hear outdoors (like a whistle) even if you don't really *need* something like that indoors.

Flighted parrots should also be locked in their cage when you even quickly open and shut the door too. It only takes a split second. I remember one summer helping my mom get the birds into their outdoor cages, and while she was grabbing Alfie, I was standing guard at the amazon's cage because Barney wasn't in it yet so we hadn't locked Lucy in yet (and din't want her escaping through the unlocked door. My mom came out the door with Alfie, and right over her head came Barney Thank god there was a short, bushy evergreen tree right there he immediately crash landed and became entangled in. If he would've not hit that tree, he would've been gone and is so 'domesticated' he would not have survived the first night. One must be ever ever diligent with flighted birds and routes to the outdoors. Even with Kiwi who has never made an honest attempt at flight and may not even understand he could fly (and is clipped), I carefully scope out large, flat areas that if he did leap or fall, he couldn't glide up a tree and I HOVER over him outdoors. My eyes are not off him for a split second, and I'm never much more than a foot or two away from him at all times. If he was flighted, he would be recall trained and I would probably bite the bullet and put him on a flight line as well or just keep him caged outside. If you choose to flight Rocky, do him the favor of recall training and harness training.

 

[DallyTsuka]

lisa, it takes a lot of consideration and careful thought to clip in such situations. it's never easy to come to decisions like this and whether flighted or clipped, the end result is both sides of the coin the owners usually have the best interest of their birds in consideration, which you clearly do.

i have a bird like yours. my male tiel is clumsy and often crashes even after he learns a new environment. his problem is that he is super heavy and really really fast. he has trouble with landing because he has issues with his feet (he walks on his ankles) and he often fails to land and takes a tumble or crash lands into things. some birds just have issues with flying for one reason or another. unfortunately in my case i am unable to clip tsuka. i would clip him if he didnt have worse problems from being clipped. he is a weird case. most birds dont have problems like he does being clipped. he falls and breaks flights all the time if his feathers arent supported enough on his wings, and he gets bad damage to his feathers. and he gets obese because even a partial clip grounds him--its like he knows he is clipped and he refuses to do anything but sit there until he is a sitting blob of flab. and then it makes the problem worse and he drops like a rock and damages tail feathers and wing feathers. otherwise, he is a case where a light clip would be better for him.


perhaps your next time around you can try a light clip with your buddy and see how it works out for him, it should allow flight but keep the distance to a minimum and will reduce the chances of these incidents. but ultimately it is your choice and you shouldnt feel bad if you make that choice.

as i said before, both people who clip and people who choose flight both choose their reasons for the sake of their bird's safety as both sides have risks, and both sides have their benefits. in my opinion, its just what people and their birds can cope with. some people cannot live with the risks of flight and choose to clip and that isnt wrong. then there are people who cannot live with the risks of clipping and so choose to flight. neither are wrong i dont think.

you know your bird, you know what you have to do for him and you to feel safe.

 

[jenphilly]

It may have been mentioned in another post, did not ready every line... but the more he flies the better he flies. And its the best exercise in the world for a bird!

Ivory started with just barely being able to make it from cage to sofa or table... then she was able to fly to a straight line across the room... now she does laps, turns around if she decides she doesn't see anything she wants to land on, zig zags and can chase you down when she wants to hang with you. Its a bit of a joke around here for someone to duck to miss her landing on a shoulder... but she's gotten really good and can do a mid air stop and drop like she is a raptor going in for a kill!

Clipping is totally personal, but if your bird is not fleeing from you or being a behavior problem, I'd give him a little time to see how he adjusts. Within days of flying he won't be landing in a sink or anything, unless that was what he intended!!

 

[aether-drifter]

Also wanted to mention, I have seen clipped birds fly very well, when startled or determined. But they usually have little control over their flight, so they can end up in dangerous places more easily than flighted birds who have mastered their flight. I know someone who lost a bird to drowning -- it was clipped and landed in a bucket of water.

Whether you choose to clip or not, you have to be just as vigilant of dangers and always aware of where your bird is in the home. Otherwise, it can end quite badly. Therefore, to me it makes a lot more sense to let them have the benefits of flight , since you still have to be super careful either way.

 

[RavensGryf]

Then there are birds who are simply not cut out for flight, and may not have survived in the wild because they never fledged. My parents third bird is a relatively poor flyer who does not fly voluntarily. Especially after he suffered a stroke. He gets picked up round the body, taken to the edge of the kitchen (of course when nothing is cooking!) and given a toss so he has to fly the 50 or so feet in a straight line back to his cage. He gets to do that a couple times a day for exercise. He does pretty good when given the head start of being lightly tossed, but usually is very uncontrolled if he takes off by himself (like when he's scared or something). Poor old Barney can barely fly after 40 years Kiwi is clipped because he plain has no concept of flight. He sure likes to flap his wings when he's holding onto our hand for dear life, but when we tried to flight him, he dropped like a rock and looked at us as though we had thrown him to be mean He just never took flight, so we continue to clip him for safety outdoors so if he did ever get spooked or walk off his perch (which he does sometimes when excited) he wouldn't have the flight feathers he had no idea how to use and catch a gust of wind and end up petrified half to death 20' up a tree or something. Clipping is something that should be considered carefully by the owner after weighing all the pros and cons, and based on the individual bird.

My Robin is one of those birds to whom flight is a foreign concept. When I bought him from the bird store after weaning at 3 months old, I really don't think he ever fledged. The breeder I'm thinking sold him to the store ASAP. He is almost 20 now and doesn't miss it. ONCE about 7 years ago his wings grew out, and he didn't know how to fly at all... Only crashed. It was definitely traumatizing to him. So, like quoted above, I think in these type of circumstances, some birds are better off staying clipped. Robin is super happy too.
With other birds who "can" fly, while I DO think it's ideal, however, in some homes there might be circimstances where you cannot always control parameters of safety (say if you don't live alone and/or have a small vermin attack dog who lives well away from birds, but still don't need birds flying accidentally into her area) for example then clipped is much "safer" IMO.