So Mango is scared of hands and I want him to get used to my hands and not be scared using positive reinforcement.He will step up on my arm but not the hands.Mango's wings are clipped but he can still fly a good bit across the room and I regret clipping him.What methods could I use to make him not so scared of my hands? Obviously he wont take treats from me if he is scared of hands.I am also moving my Cockatiels out of my bedroom so they are not a distraction.
Taming Mango the Plum headed Parakeet
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itchyfeet
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Are you always presenting the hand in the same way? Have you tried palm up, palm down, palm to the side etc? Of three parrots I work with regularly, not one has the same hand to step up on. My IRN is a fist, next doors sulfur crested cockatoo is a vertical flat palm and Mum's galah is a horizontal palm....and if I ask them with someone elses cue, they won't have a bar of it!
Mallory
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This definitely takes time. Is Mango a millet fan? This could work with any treat...but when I was working with a temporary resident cockatiel, I used a hair band and made a millet "bracelet". In my case, I used the bracelet to get the bird closer to my wrist to step up, but in your case you could work it from the "safe" spot up your arm down to your hand. If millet doesn't work there are plenty of other ways to get creative, but ultimately it will take time for your bird to learn to trust your hand. Obviously avoid any activity that involves getting your hand too close and scaring him, even if that means waiting until Mango is on a play stand to change out bowls and clean the cage. He'll come around in time!
Mallory
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You don't start by offering it from your hand. Use the band to secure it on the part of your arm he is comfortable standing on. See if he will eat it from your arm and then if you are successful, you can gradually move the millet down your arm towards your hand over multiple sessions. If you've done any clicker training work with him and he seems responsive, you could also shape the behavior of coming closer to your hand.
Here's another idea. I believe it was Barbara Heidenreich working with a macaw who I saw using this method, but it should work fine with your bird. Set up a training perch - it can be PVC, it can be a tabletop perch, whatever you have. It can even be his cage top. Make sure there is a food bowl attached to the area. Take a favorite treat and offer it to him, if he is reluctant drop it in the bowl (without scaring him) and walk far enough away that he is comfortable taking the treat. It may take a few sessions. Once he is comfortable taking the treat from the bowl, work on decreasing the distance you have to walk backwards until you can stand next to him while he eats. Then start leaving your hand closer to the bowl until he is eating next to your hand. From there you can start seeing if he will take the treat from your hand. Obviously these methods take time and a lot of patience.
Our Eva learned to like hands because once she was comfortable with us near her cage, we would leave our hands resting against her cage and ignore her completely. She would build up courage and eventually play with our fingers through the cage bars. Eventually she accepted pets and then we went through the routine again, this time with our hand inside the cage. Eventually she was willing to play with our hands and shortly afterwards she learned to step up.
All of these behaviors are the same principle of desensitization. You don't want to flood Mango - that is force your hands upon him even on accident and scare him - but you do want to gradually push the very edges of his tolerance to expand his comfort with your hands. I promise if you are patient you will eventually be successful using one of these methods, although you may have to modify it slightly to work for your particular situation and bird.
Here's another idea. I believe it was Barbara Heidenreich working with a macaw who I saw using this method, but it should work fine with your bird. Set up a training perch - it can be PVC, it can be a tabletop perch, whatever you have. It can even be his cage top. Make sure there is a food bowl attached to the area. Take a favorite treat and offer it to him, if he is reluctant drop it in the bowl (without scaring him) and walk far enough away that he is comfortable taking the treat. It may take a few sessions. Once he is comfortable taking the treat from the bowl, work on decreasing the distance you have to walk backwards until you can stand next to him while he eats. Then start leaving your hand closer to the bowl until he is eating next to your hand. From there you can start seeing if he will take the treat from your hand. Obviously these methods take time and a lot of patience.
Our Eva learned to like hands because once she was comfortable with us near her cage, we would leave our hands resting against her cage and ignore her completely. She would build up courage and eventually play with our fingers through the cage bars. Eventually she accepted pets and then we went through the routine again, this time with our hand inside the cage. Eventually she was willing to play with our hands and shortly afterwards she learned to step up.
All of these behaviors are the same principle of desensitization. You don't want to flood Mango - that is force your hands upon him even on accident and scare him - but you do want to gradually push the very edges of his tolerance to expand his comfort with your hands. I promise if you are patient you will eventually be successful using one of these methods, although you may have to modify it slightly to work for your particular situation and bird.
OP
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He already eats if im beside him.He wouldn't eat from a bowl though unless its where its supposed to be where he is used to it being.Also he doesn't stay on my arm long he usually flys off to go somewhere he just uses me for transport lol.He is a great listener too he likes when I talk to him.
MonicaMc
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I agree with Mallory.
If he only eats from a certain bowl, then what about dropping a treat in said bowl whenever he comes close to you? He doesn't need to take food from your hand immediately, it's a behavior that you can build upon. The more he learns to trust you, the more he may be willing to go the distance to come closer.
If he only eats from a certain bowl, then what about dropping a treat in said bowl whenever he comes close to you? He doesn't need to take food from your hand immediately, it's a behavior that you can build upon. The more he learns to trust you, the more he may be willing to go the distance to come closer.
OP
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What I have been doing is putting my hand in the cage at a distance he is comfortable with and then move closer and if he gets nervous wait for him to calm down and "Click" and leave the room and repeat.His reward is me leaving the room since he doesn't take treats.
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Mallory and Monica's suggestions are excellent. I'll only add that these techniques will not necessarily yield immediate results, so don't get discouraged. You're building trust, here, and sometimes this takes time.
Consistency and patience are key.
Consistency and patience are key.
JerseyWendy
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I'm a bit confused here. So I guess you weren't asking for advice with this thread then?
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Ah. I see. I wonder where I ever got the impression that you were actually looking for suggestions and advice?
My mistake.
JerseyWendy
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I am confident you must know (as a bird trainer) that no single method can always be successfully applied to all birds.
What may work for one or more may not necessarily work for the next bird. Each is an individual and must be treated as such.
What may work for one or more may not necessarily work for the next bird. Each is an individual and must be treated as such.
OP
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I am confident you must know (as a bird trainer) that no single method can always be successfully applied to all birds.
What may work for one or more may not necessarily work for the next bird. Each is an individual and must be treated as such.
Yeah I know that I use different methods for different birds and of course all the birds are in different situations like maybe some aggressive and some scared so would need different methods.Now that the Cockatiels are moved out Mango is starting to flock call so calling me when I leave the room.
Mallory
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I know you are not looking for advice but this forum is for sharing information. Even if you don't benefit from that information, I'll give you some because others in the future may find this post when they are in a similar situation. If you consider yourself a bird trainer and you're going to take up the serious task of training others' birds, you should be familiar with principles of operant conditioning and how to apply them appropriately.
What you are doing is - in terms of operant conditioning vocabulary - called negative reinforcement. You are "reinforcing" the behavior you want by taking away a negative stimulus when you see that behavior. Negative here doesn't mean punishment, it means you are removing something to encourage a behavior. Horse people use this a lot - apply pressure which is uncomfortable to the horse and when the horse moves in the direction you want, release that pressure to reinforce the behavior. It's the way we "connect" with wild horses in the round pen the first time we work with them - keep them moving with an unpleasant stimulus (your voice or a lunge whip) until they start turning inwards, then reward them by taking away that stimulus. Eventually they want to "join up" and come towards us and we can start forming trust.
Negative reinforcement works. The problem is, with negative reinforcement you can only go so far and the animal is not motivated to try new things or "work harder". Since negative reinforcement starts with an aversive (you being close enough to make him nervous, pressure on a horse's sides, etc.) it's more likely to cause stress and is just less productive learning. There's an amazing thing you will see if you switch to positive reinforcement. Your animal will start throwing new behaviors at you to try and earn a reward. You can "capture" new behaviors and use them as really fun tricks. This method also associates your presence with good things instead of just teaching Mango that you go away and take off the pressure when he calms down. But to start using positive reinforcement, you would need to start offering Mango something he likes - usually for nervous parrots the best thing is a favorite treat. If you set these foundations now you can start making some amazing progress with him in the future!
What you are doing is - in terms of operant conditioning vocabulary - called negative reinforcement. You are "reinforcing" the behavior you want by taking away a negative stimulus when you see that behavior. Negative here doesn't mean punishment, it means you are removing something to encourage a behavior. Horse people use this a lot - apply pressure which is uncomfortable to the horse and when the horse moves in the direction you want, release that pressure to reinforce the behavior. It's the way we "connect" with wild horses in the round pen the first time we work with them - keep them moving with an unpleasant stimulus (your voice or a lunge whip) until they start turning inwards, then reward them by taking away that stimulus. Eventually they want to "join up" and come towards us and we can start forming trust.
Negative reinforcement works. The problem is, with negative reinforcement you can only go so far and the animal is not motivated to try new things or "work harder". Since negative reinforcement starts with an aversive (you being close enough to make him nervous, pressure on a horse's sides, etc.) it's more likely to cause stress and is just less productive learning. There's an amazing thing you will see if you switch to positive reinforcement. Your animal will start throwing new behaviors at you to try and earn a reward. You can "capture" new behaviors and use them as really fun tricks. This method also associates your presence with good things instead of just teaching Mango that you go away and take off the pressure when he calms down. But to start using positive reinforcement, you would need to start offering Mango something he likes - usually for nervous parrots the best thing is a favorite treat. If you set these foundations now you can start making some amazing progress with him in the future!
OP
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That is great advice but isn't what im doing positive reinforcement? Its Desintization I cant spell it correctly lol.Also I changed it to moving my hand back instead of leaving the room since he wants me to stay.He wont take treats from me even if its put in the bowl.
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