Sudden Plucking of Chest Feathers & Inside of Legs:

[RitaS]

Hey There!
Been a few years since I’ve logged in. Looking for suggestions and/or help.

If your reading this, I’d like to start with an apology. I’m kinda freaking out.
I have a Blue Fronted Amazon named Norman. I never had Norman sexed, so he could actually be a Norma.
We’ve been together almost 32 years. It’s been close to 2 decades since he’s been seriously ill and I’m feeling like a novice right now. I love all animals but would’t really consider myself a bird person. What I am is a Norman person…He’s my baby.

I got him as a teenager and unfortunately made many many harmful mistakes in both his physical & mental health. But we managed to pull through and life has been pretty good for the past 17 or so years. There was a minor scare with weight lose a couple of years ago, but blood work all came back good.

I might be jumping the gun here a little. I’ll hopefully get some answers from my vet on Monday.
When I got home Wednesday evening 12/05/18 I noticed a lot of small feathers in the bottom of Norman’s cage. Upon inspecting him, I noticed his chest feathers looked thin and patchy. I also noticed the feathers on the inside of his legs looked thinned out. Almost like he was molting, but only in those places. Otherwise he seemed like his normal feisty self.
I called my vet the following morning and made an appointment for early Friday morning. By Thursday night he had small bald spots of his chest and legs. He has never been a plucker, so naturally I’m beginning to panic. When I tried to inspect him further, he wasn’t having it. He also seemed a little off. He seemed to be eating alright, but I found out on Friday that he had lost some weight. First thing my vet asked was if anything has changed in our routine. There has been some changes in our home but it’s been going on for almost two years. After Thanksgiving, Norman was in heaven destroying a turkey bone, so much so, I had to take a bunch of photographs him. His chest feathers look bright and beautiful in these images and a week and half later, he’s got bald spots, but still playing with his toys and chatting up a storm. As of Friday, there’s no doubt that he’s ill, just based on his behavior change alone. My vet is also concerned, she took a vile of blood and sent us home with Bene Bac Gel, Flucon 50mg, & Baytril/Cherry. Hopefully the blood work will come back tomorrow.
She showed me a number (7-8) of new blood feathers and told me to be cautious of them when restraining him to give him his meds. She also showed me a tail blood feather that had her a little concerned. She said it looked damaged. His non blood feathers looked good except for one flight feather, but she didn’t really comment further on it.

I’m having a hard time administering his meds. He’s terrified of towels or anything on my hands. I used a towel the first day, but I just can’t bring myself to do it again. He flipped out and dive bombed across the room and the noise he made were heartbreaking. I could barely get him under control. My vet showed me how to do it, but there were two of them doing it and I don’t have anyone (willing) to help, my friends have a heathy fear of Norman’s beak. I’ve also watched at least 15 youtube videos. I’m also concerned that the towel might absorb any meds that I unknowingly missed getting in his mouth. So for now, I’m doing it bare handed and yes I’ve been bitten a number of times. He not biting me as hard as I know he can, so that’s a plus. Honestly, I could care less if he bites me. He’s not actually trying to hurt me, he’s just scared. I don’t feel like I’m promoting bad behavior under these circumstances. My vet disagrees.

My Vet said he should appear to feel better in a day or so, but I think he’s actually worse. His bald spots are now clearly visible and larger. He’s not eating much, not even his once in a blue moon I’m a spoiled parrot foods…AKA…buffalo chicken wings, pasta, string cheese, & pizza…Don’t judge :-(
I did mention that I got him as a teenager, so shamefully I have to admit that I have the rare parrot who prefers cheese to carrots…he still eats his carrots. But today he barely touched his chicken wing and normally you’d risk loosing a finger if you tried to go anywhere near his chicken wing!
He’s still playing with his toys and I did get him to sing with me today, but no dancing :-(

I’m trying to figure out anyway possible to get him to eat, build up his immune system and to distract him from plucking. So far, got all his favorite fruits & veggies, carbs, yogurt treats, and his #1…Mighty Mango Juice. He has been drinking some of that. I’ve tried flying him around a little more to see if we can work up his appetite, but I don’t think it’s working.
I’ve been boiling water pretty much none stop, raised the heat in my house and got a red heat bulb. But then I read online that some of these bulbs are coated with something similar to teflon pans and that they should be used in a separate room for 24 hours or so to burn off this coating. No where on the box (Nightlight Red Reptile Bulb 40w) does it say this and I got the bulb at Petsmart. I’m so afraid that I’m doing more harm than good. I’m trying to not get paranoid, but read this on a couple of different sites.
Does anyone know if this is true? The bulb also seems pretty bright. His cover is somewhat thick, but I can still see the light from across the room. Does the red light interrupt there sleep?
I’m thinking about purchasing a ceramic heat emitter bulb and chucking the red heat bulb.

I was also considering a heat mist humidifier. I’m concerned that my house might be getting too dry and I think my kitchen might be too far from his room. I live in the deep south and normally very humid, but it’s been pretty cold here and my heat has been running non stop. Any thoughts?
I’ve considered getting a space heater, but they kinda scare me. I think I’d rather just raised the overall heat.

I’ve adding a few new toys and one new perch, but don’t want to change things up too much to avoid stressing him further.


Questions Condenced:
Tips on administering medication without further traumatizing him
Building Immune system
Enticing him to eat more
Heat mist humidifier
Red heat bulb: Coating Safety & Is light disruptive to their sleep
Ceramic heat emitter bulbs
How distract him from plucking



The above mentioned change:
I have an elderly dog named Bob. He’s a Puggle, and was diagnosed with liver failure about two years ago. After multiple hospitalizations, tons of medicine, we’ve managed to maintain a decent quality of life for Bob. A few months ago he was diagnosed with diabetes, likely because of his liver. It took a bit, but we’ve managed to get the correct dosages of insulin and balance it with his treatment for his liver. I know this might sound like I’m prolonging the inevitable, but the only reason I’m continuing with all of his treatments is because of his will to live. He is just the most happy go lucky dog, you would not never believe he was ill. He plays with his toys like a puppy, runs around the house like a lunatic, begs for treats, etc.
So other than Bob’s issues, nothing has really changed and even the recent diabetes diagnosis occurred back in August. I can’t claim that Norman has received the same level of attention over the past year and half, that he would normally have received, but I don’t think I’ve been neglectful.


Any & all suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you all for your time & patience,
Rita

 

[LaManuka]

I am very sorry indeed to hear about this happening to your baby, and having to deal with this traumatic method of delivering medication must make it all the more difficult!

Can you, perhaps in consultation with your vet, maybe use a favourite treat to disguise the medication? Several of our users with big birds and big beaks to deal with will soak the meds in a piece of bread, or incorporate it in some mashed vegies, something along those lines. Anything that helps the medicine go down and results in less trauma to you and your precious Norman would surely have to be a good thing!

 

[ChristaNL]

Oh lucky you, stumbling straight into the scariest and most obscure parrot-issues of all.

(You've probably read the sticky about plucking?)

Not to badmouth your vet/ CAV but it always kind of alarms me when they start treatment without a diagnosis first.
(I know sometimes with birds you relly need to do something *fast* but to me it does not sound like one of those occasions.)
Localised plucking out of the blue can be an indication there is a painfull spot underneath...
(or it may be referred pain -> like you may feel pain in the shoulder/arm when you have a heartattack)

Since the first plucking was in the crop-area... I would start searching there.
Maybe something went inside that is not behaving nicely.
(could be a splinter of that bone he was having so much fun with that went the wrong way, could be anything... parrots being parrots)


I do not know how cold your house is- but if possible: get your bird to bathe.
Some people mist, I just plunk mine in the shower - I own 3 partly-ducks anyway they love getting soaked to the bone.
As long as they are completely dry before bedtime it is fine.
It wil restore moisture to the feathers faster than boiling pots of water will.
And the added soak will protect new forming feathers a bit.
(keeping them bendy-er, if there is such a word)

(you can always hang a wet towel near the cage- that will also raise humidity without getting your entire house wet (a damp house is harder to heat/ keep warm anyway)
and if it dries too fast put one end in a bucket of water and it wil wick up the moisture (just be carefull where you put the other end, or the bucketcontents may end up on your floor)

Be carefull of the temperature of the bathwater: too cold and they hate it, too hot and you will dry out the skin because the oils will rinse off.




I am not sure that raising the local temperature will do much good (unless he was sitting fluffed up all the time)- Parrots usually do okay with a bit of chill -> they just start to eat more. But you know you bird like no other! If you feel he needs the extra heat... go for it!
(there is a birdsafe heatingpannel - somebody here mentioned it a couple of times, I hope she will chime in alter, because I forget the name again..- you can place near the cage -> no light, no scary substances.)




meds... if he still likes his juice..there lies your answer
just mix it up and let him drink it.
Yes I know- strict dietary rules etc. - but with sick birds you can bend the rules a little.
Does he like toast: soak it!
Polly wants a biscuit: soak it in meds...

 

[Anita1250]

My 35 year old BFA gets milk thistle every morning for liver issues. I completely soak Cheerios, which he loves, with the medication. He then gets them hand fed to him on a spoon. Loves it. The trick is to let it sit for a few minutes so all of the liquid soaks into the cereal.

As far as warming is concerned, I just usually put the heat up. I also have a heated perch for those really cold nights. It plugs in and he sits on it. It is really only warm, but does give him the opportunity to go there if he is cold.

I wouldn't try to distract him from plucking until you have a diagnosis from the vet. If it is caused by a medical issue, you probably can't get him to stop anyway. It may just add more stress to the mix.

As for his immune system, there are a number of ways to help that. They all, however, involve him eating something which is super healthy. If he won't eat, that isn't going to work. What you should do is give him whatever he will eat regardless of whether it is healthy or not. At this point, getting calories into him is of utmost importance. A sick bird cannot get better unless they have at least some nutrition. The one time my Sam was sick, I mixed peanut butter with orange juice until it was liquid and fed it to him with an eye dropper. One drop at a time. It worked, and kept him going until the meds took effect and he got better.

I don't know enough about the red bulb coating, but if you read in several places that it may contain Teflon, then I just wouldn't use it around a parrot. Too risky. Find another way.

Be careful with humidifiers. They can breed mold, which would be dangerous to him in his weakened state. I like the wet towel idea, but make sure to switch it out every day. That can also breed mold.

Whatever you do, do not panic at this point. Keep in touch with your CAV and try to do what they say. If you must get medication into him, then do it any way you can. That is his key to survival. If the plucking is caused by whatever is wrong, then that should go away too. You are his only link to getting better. Do whatever you have to do.

Having said all that, remember that we are here for moral support. We all care very much about each others birdies, and will help any way we can. Keep in touch, if just to have a place to vent. Someone will always answer you. Good luck with your little green chicken!

 

[Laurasea]

Sweeter heater , is a radiant heat panal for birds and pets sold on Amazon 116 bucks for small one , and the small one is all you need, works great I have used for 18 years, hangs outside the cage is not a light, outs out no light, is a radiant heat panal, for birds with bigger beakes run the cord through a pvc pipe.. I hope your baby gets better soon. Sort your fid is sick!!! You had great advice about sneaky meds in foods, like in a tiny half teaspoon of yogurt, or apple sauce, or soaking in bread

 

[noodles123]

Congratulations on having been such a solid parront!!! That is great to hear that he has been with you for so long

With vet approval, try mixing the meds with a small amount of a wet food that you know he will east (mine likes plain oatmeal sweetened with mashed bananas). I hide her probiotic in it daily (Bene-bac 1/4 tsp 2x).

I misread the post--didn't see your dog was diabetic (it was early lol--sorry about your dog though) either way, all of my suggestions need to be run by the vet, as these vegetables and fruits are carb heavy, please know that I wrote these based on things I have tried for my non-diabetic bird. With permission, you could try sweet potatoes (mashed) could also work, or mashed acorn squash...Rice...if you go the fruit route, look out for excess vitamin C (citrus fruit is okay in very small doses, but too much can cause Iron Storage Disease). My vet said my bird shouldn't be getting a small tangerine wedge more than 2 times a week. You could also try to get some low-sodium crackers or mini-nilla wafers and soaking them in the meds (yes...unhealthier.. but it depends on how much meds you have to give and for how long). Keep in mind that salt and certain preservatives can actually increase plucking behaviors. The Nilla Wafer and low-salt cracker thought is what I have done in desperate times, but it is obviously less-than-ideal!

Now I see that your bird doesn't have a liver issue (your dog does)---I will leave this here in case he/she ever does---When my bird had a liver condition (which has since been corrected), the vet prescribed a mixture of Lactulose (NOT LACTOSE LOL!) and Milk Thistle. I give her half of a 1ml syringe full 2x daily. The mixture had to be kept in the fridge and it was orange in color. Anyway, after 3 months of doing this, all of her levels were back to normal! The Lactulose can be important because it helps prevent seizures in birds whose liver levers are high. Basically, when this happens, they can't get rid of ammonia etc and it can cause problems in their brains.

Probiotics can help build immunity. There are also milk thistle supplements (NON ALCOHOL BASED SUSPENSION....make sure they are intended for birds) which can help the liver (which connects to a lot of other body systems. It is a pretty good preventative, even if your bird currently doesn't have liver issues.

Sleep is super important for immunity- 10-12 hours of dark, quiet sleep and regular light/dark cycle.

You might consider the amount of light he is getting. My uncles Grey had the bird equivalent of season depressive disorder and he struggled during the winter. I run a craft light (full spectrum) near my bird and it isn't the same as the UV lights, but she likes it. My uncle's Grey responded well to a human happy-light....Not sure why...I know there is controversy about birds and lighting. The UV lights can get quite hot and they can cause burns to retinas and skin if not properly adjusted. Again, not here to start that controversy up, but the point is, full-spectrum lighting isn't the same as UV lighting.

The coatings on certain heat bulbs can contain Teflon-like materials. A bunch of brooder chicks were killed inadvertently at MSU when they purchased new heat lamps without knowing that the reflective coating contained fluoridated compounds. Space heaters can also contain these coatings. I don't know much about bird heaters, but they do exist. Some people like those heated perches or panels, but again, I have no experience with these.

Humidity changes cause my bird to mess with her feathers more. When the air is dry, she is more prone to picking at her chest feathers and feet feathers. Google the humidity appropriate for your species, but I have read that for my bird, the humidity needs to be as high as possible without exceeding 60% (as mold starts growing at that point). I run a humidifier near her cage---if you go that route, make sure you use distilled water or tap water that has settled. The minerals and chlorine in regular water can get into the air and be breathed in unless without proper care. I use a cool-mist humidifier because the heating ones can be more dangerous. The one I use has proven safe for over a year now and it was a cheap one that I impulsively bought at Walmart during a very dry spell (Safety 1st is the brand). I clean it every 2 days or so using the clear/yellow variety of F10 SC (great, avian-safe cleaner). I do rinse it out afterwards, but F10 is not risky for cleaning, as, in supervised settings, it can be used as a nebulizer treatment for birds with respiratory issues. Don't deliberately add it to the water...just saying, it isn't going to pose a threat like other cleaners and on other surfaces, you don't even have to rinse it.


If you don't already, you might invest in a non-ionizing, non-ozone producing air purifier with a hepa filter. I use a Veva (off Amazon) and I am happy with it. Allergens can cause plucking and skin irritation. Also, consider whether you are using any new personal care products or even detergents which could be causing irritation.

My bird messes with her feathers less when they are wet. Granted, you can't keep him misted all day, but misting can provide a quick fix, so long as it isn't done for punishment (or perceived as punishment). Sometimes birds will also pluck areas when they are in pain due to arthritis or other things. Again, so many pluck for other reasons, so if your vet has done a work-up, then I wouldn't assume that it is totally medical.


You might want to consider any changes to routine or added stressors (even tiny things, like playing a different radio station during the day could cause stress in a routine-oriented bird.

There are these plastic c-links (colorful) that you can hook together to make chains. My Cockatoo really likes to twiddle them around as an alternative behavior.

 

[Anita1250]

Actually, it is the dog Bob that is diabetic. The parrot has normal sugar levels.

 

[EllenD]

I'm sorry you're having these sudden issues, but take a deep breath, this isn't something that usually starts this way without some physical/medical cause, usually if it's a Feather-Destructive Behavior due to a psychological/neurological issue it comes-on more gradually...It sounds to me very much like Norman has some kind of infection, but I too am not at all happy about the way your Vet handled this, for two #1) They prescribed a broad-spectrum antibiotic without a diagnosis, which can actually cause your bird to become much more ill if it's something like a Fungal Infection and not a Bacterial infection, or if Baytril is not the correct antibiotic then he's taking it for no reason at all which is obviously not good either, and then #2) While I'm thrilled she took blood from Norman, did the Vet do a Fecal culture/microscopy/Gram-Stain?

Is your Vet a Certified Avian Vet, or an Exotic's Vet? I'm not trying to be critical of your Vet either, just thinking about Norman...

With sudden, out-of-the-blue plucking only in specific areas like Norman is doing, you have to look at exactly where he is plucking, because this is usually a clue to where the issue is, as they pluck areas where they are feeling pain/discomfort/itching...So when they pick their legs/inside of their legs, their tail feathers, the feathers around their vent/cloaca area, it is very often due to a Gastrointestinal Infection (either Bacterial or Fungal), or a Kidney Infection (which may not show-up on routine Blood-Work and is usually very evident in a regular, plain-film x-ray as the kidney is usually very swollen/enlarged. Bloods will show a general infection in the CBC tests, but Kidney-function blood-work, which is usually what is done in routine blood-work, will not typically show an infection of the Kidney unfortunately...you can see things like Gout on routine blood-work, but not a Kidney infection...so keep that in-mind if the blood work comes back not showing anything other than an overall general infection "somewhere"; an X-Ray will be your next step if that is the case...

****I'm very confused as to why your Vet didn't do any Fecal-testing, as he's plucking the inside of his legs and his tail feathers...And Fecal-testing is pretty standard anytime they are generally ill anyway...They typically either take a fresh dropping you bring in, or they take a swab themselves and then send it out to an outside lab to grow-out any bacteria/fungi/protozoa, but they also typically make slides out of the Fecal swab right there in the office, on the spot, and look at them under their microscope to look for bacteria type, the amount of healthy, "normal" bacteria present and if it's enough, the presence of ANY Fungi/Yeast, the presence of any Protozoan infections, like Giardia, etc. If they did a Fecal and you just didn't mention it then disregard this, but since you were very thorough I'm assuming that they didn't do this, and this is definitely something that should have been done BEFORE any antibiotics were prescribed at all...

Also, putting Norman on Flucon already is kind of odd in my opinion, because they have no idea if this is physical or mental, all signs point to physical, and putting him on an anti-depressant already is not at all standard...So that is really throwing me for a loop...I am the Medical Liaison for an Avian and Reptile Rescue, and I deal with parrots/birds who pluck/barber/self-mutilate every single day...And when it just starts suddenly out of nowhere like this and it's only in very specific areas, we ALWAYS rule-out all physical/medical causes well before putting them on any psychotropic drugs like Flucon...So I'm not sure about that one, but I'm not the Vet...

The fact that Norman is also plucking his chest area around/over his Crop is another good indication that it may be some type of GI infection, either Bacterial or Fungal, and a Yeast Infection is very often found with these symptoms...I hope it's that simple for your sake, and Norman's...The BeneBac is a good Probiotic that will help to replenish the healthy, normal Bacteria throughout his GI Tract that is killed-off by the Baytril, so I'm happy that it was prescribed, but it is not an Anti-Fungal medication, so if it is something as simple as a Yeast infection throughout his Crop/GI Tract then he'll need to stop the Baytril and start an Anti-Fungal...I would think that if your Vet actually did a Fecal that you would have been told the microscopy/gram-stain results on the spot, so I'm guessing they didn't, and if I were you I'd be asking why they didn't do a Fecal Culture/Microscopy/Gram-Stain and I would request it ASAP...it's very basic...Also, a Crop-Flush and then a Culture on the flush due to Norman plucking over his Crop is pretty standard...Also, I hate to point this out, but sudden plucking combined with weight-loss even though the bird is still eating normally are both very common symptoms of PDD, so I hope your Vet is a CAV and included that test in the Blood-Work they ordered.

****Something you said kind of worries me a little bit...This is just a side-note, but it set-off alarm bells as soon as I read it...You gave Norman "turkey-bones" to chew on on Thanksgiving Day? How big/thick were they? Did he chomp them all up, or did he just chew on them without breaking them? The reason I'm asking this is that ALL "COOKED" POULTRY BONES ARE EXTREMELY FRAGILE AND EASY TO BREAK, AND THEY VERY OFTEN "SPLINTER"...I know that many people often give their parrots cooked chicken/turkey bones, and I've heard some people say "It's not a problem because they won't eat the bones, they just want the marrow out of them", and I've heard others say "It's not a problem because they chomp the bones up into mush and eat them, so there aren't any sharp pieces left that they swallow", but the fact remains that parrots do often get cooked poultry shards/splinters stuck in their Crops...Usually if cooked poultry bones pass through their Crops and reach their Gizzards then they are okay, unless they are quite large or quite pointy/sharp and become lodged along the way...This is the reason that you should NEVER give a dog any Poultry Bones to chew on at all, not ever, they often end-up getting them stuck in their mouths, throats, their esophagus, and unfortunately inside of their GI Tracts, often requiring surgery to remove them as they don't digest them...So the fact that Norman was given Turkey Bones to chew on on the 22nd of November, and then he suddenly started plucking over his Crop and near his rear-end about 2 weeks later is actually quite alarming...Birds hide all outward signs of illness/pain for as long as they can, so it would actually be quite possible for Norman to have splintered Turkey-Bones stuck in his Crop/GI Tract, as he would not be able to digest them at all, not even little shards of them, and that's exactly what poultry-bones do when they are chewed, they splinter and turn into little shards that are pointy/sharp... That's just food for thought for you to think about, as the only way you would be able to find this out would be first a regular X-Ray, which is no big deal, hopefully abnormalities in either his Crop or his Stomach/Intestinal Tract would show-up, such as swelling, free-fluid surrounding it, etc., or you may even see any bones he swallowed if they were large enough...Then the next step after an X-Ray would be them using an Endoscopy Scope to look inside Norman's Crop and flush it out to gather any contents that are stuck in it...I've actually seen plenty of non-metallic things stuck in a bird's Crop/Stomach on a regular X-Ray, pieces of plastic, fabric, threads, etc...Just something to think about if his Blood-Work comes back normal, as well as the Fecal not showing anything...

***Also, as far as getting the oral meds and the Probiotic into Norman, the best way to do it and to ensure that he gets the entire dose, if you are having issues doing it with an oral syringe and you have no one else to help you hold him, is to put the entire dose of medication in a very small amount of people-food, something warm and mushy that you can hide the meds and that you know he'll eat ALL of so he gets the entire dose (that's why it's important to mix the meds with a very, very small amount of food, because he'll need to eat it all in order to get the entire dose of meds)...Mashed Potatoes, Oatmeal, Grits, a bit of Ice Cream, a bit of Yogurt, a tiny bit of fruit juice (orange juice works well to cover the medication taste), a bit of Applesauce, a bit of Vanilla pudding, etc. are all foods/drinks I've seen work. Again, just be sure that you know Norman is going to eat the entire amount of food you mix the meds with and that you don't mix the meds with too much that he won't finish...

 

[EllenD]

The other thing that I just remembered was a case we had that was at Christmas, and someone had given their Severe Macaw a round ham-bone to chew on AFTER they had eaten all of the meat off of it themselves...The bird eventually became quite ill, I believe it was like a month or so afterwards, and the poor guy was diagnosed with a Pasteurella infection inside of his crop. The CAV said it was probably due to giving the bird a bone that had been inside of a human mouth, as bones, even cooked bones, are still porous and can easily absorb (and also attract) bacterium...So if the turkey-bones that you gave Norman to chew on were inside of any human's mouth prior to giving them to him, that's another possibility...Not as common as finding bone-shards/splinters in their Crops, Stomachs, Intestines, etc. if they were chewing/eating poultry bones, but still a possibility...Another reason to make sure your Vet does a Fecal Culture/Gram-Stain...

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Sorry to hear Norman isn't feeling well. He is a handsome looking guy considering the plucking and looks alert. My Amy has to take heart meds every day. She has a blockage in one of her arteries (like us humans get ) so every night she gets her meds. At first she'd open her beak while I held her on her back in the palm of my hand. She learned VERY fast how not to take her meds by either kicking at the syringe or grabbing it with her beak and pulling it from my fingers:52:. So now I use a very small piece of bread. Squirt the med onto the bread and drop it in her bowl. since she likes bread so much its the first thing she goes for,and I give it to her when I know she'll be hungry
So I'd suggest using a favorite treat of Normans.
Amy also loves chicken leg bones,will literally rip one from my hand.

As far as the plucking goes I can't help with that I'm sorry. In almost thirty years Amy has never plucked. I think you should wait to hear from Normans CAV before treatment.
I wish you and Normal all the good luck!


Jim

 

[Kiwibird]

Did the vet do an X-ray? Earlier this year my BFA began overpreening his butt (like no feathers at all left down there by the time we realized something was definitely wrong). I interpreted the behavior as it being itchy and the vet ran several tests and found the cause on X-ray- a massively inflamed kidney and one hell of a birdie version of a UTI. He was on meds for months and may have periodic kidney troubles for the rest of his life, but seems to have healed well and has seemingly been ok since.

I hope your vet can find the cause of Norrmans troubles and get him healthy soon!

 

[noodles123]

Did the vet do an X-ray? Earlier this year my BFA began overpreening his butt (like no feathers at all left down there by the time we realized something was definitely wrong). I interpreted the behavior as it being itchy and the vet ran several tests and found the cause on X-ray- a massively inflamed kidney and one hell of a birdie version of a UTI. He was on meds for months and may have periodic kidney troubles for the rest of his life, but seems to have healed well and has seemingly been ok since.

I hope your vet can find the cause of Norrmans troubles and get him healthy soon!

Did they run blood work? I remember this story, but I can't recall if they found any abnormalities in the blood...seems like they would have.

 

[texsize]

Pacho my female RLA started picking her chest feathers one December out of the blue.
I took her to my CAV right away cuz it was so unexpected.
He felt it was due to hormones. They sometimes pull out there chest feathers to line the nest.
December/'January in the northern hemisphere is the time that my Amazons get most interested in breeding.
It never happened again. Somewhere I have some photos of her with 3 plucked spots on her chest but I would have to look for them. I don't recall that she had any loss of apatite though.

 

[EllenD]

Did the vet do an X-ray? Earlier this year my BFA began overpreening his butt (like no feathers at all left down there by the time we realized something was definitely wrong). I interpreted the behavior as it being itchy and the vet ran several tests and found the cause on X-ray- a massively inflamed kidney and one hell of a birdie version of a UTI. He was on meds for months and may have periodic kidney troubles for the rest of his life, but seems to have healed well and has seemingly been ok since.

I hope your vet can find the cause of Norrmans troubles and get him healthy soon!

Did they run blood work? I remember this story, but I can't recall if they found any abnormalities in the blood...seems like they would have.

Noodles, If I remember correctly Kiwi's CAV was excellent and did run blood, fecal, and the x-ray...The problem with just running bloods if the problem is a Kidney infection with birds is that yes, of course the CBC will show infection, but the Kidney Function Panel usually won't show any abnormalities unless the Kidney is so far-gone that the UA and other output/clearance levels are effected...I remember being totally amazed that Kiwi's CAV was awesome enough to actually request an X-Ray for periodic picking of feathers around the vent..Once you see something once, you remember it!!!

 

[RitaS]

I’ve been in tears reading the responses to my thread!
Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy lives to give such detailed and informative suggestions, advise, and kind words.
The longer I have him, the more I realize how little I really know. I thought my vet was aviary specialist, her website says she specializes in exotics & Birds.
She the only specialist in the region were I live and she’s been his doctor for the last 17 years.
Surprisingly the vets office hasn’t blocked my number, they really do tolerate my meltdowns well.
I honestly don’t know enough about the meds to make a judgment call.
I didn’t even question the meds she prescribed, but she knows his history, maybe she took that into account. I positive that several of his illnesses had permanent effects.
So here goes…
The fact that he’s still alive, speaks of how strong he is. Aside from illnesses, I did some incredible stupid things with him…Including but not limited to taking him with me to follow the Grateful Dead for a month here & there. Exposing him to weather shifts at campgrounds, and numerous other airborne toxins. I was so stupid! It was his first illness that put an end to all of that.
He had 3 life threatening illnesses during the first 13 years of life with me…Lead Poisoning, Chlamydia, & Pneumonia. Lead poisoning from an old wooden chair in my room. When I first got him, (by default) I couldn’t afford a cage, so I spent a couple of weeks making him this open jungle gym monstrosity, which he destroyed in less than a week! He liked sitting on this old chair I had, I don’t even think I knew what lead paint was back then. He was hospitalized for almost a week. First round of treatment didn’t work. I couldn’t afford another round of treatment, but the vet took pity on me and gave me the meds & taught me how to inject him. Armed my mom with a pair of leather gloves and off we went. It worked! I spent that summer saving every dime I made a bought him a cage fit for a macaw…that cage actually cost more than Norman! Several years later, he contracted Chlamydia from a aviary speciality breeding place that I boarded him at. This by far was the scariest experience of my life with him. When I picked him up, he was skin & feathers, the owner acted like he was fine and that I was just being dramatic…I actually payed the jerk. The place ended up getting closed down, which made me very happy but it broke my heart to think of what happened to all those other birds. My vet gave Norman about a 20% survival rate. I lived in the desert back then. My room felt like the amazon jungle…multiple humidifiers & space heaters. Had to feed him round the clock baby bird formula and antibiotics for almost 2 months. My roommates thought I was nut job! But once again, my lil man showed his inner strength. I never boarded again. Then Pneumonia from a trip I took out of town, a friend was watching him and didn’t think to raise the heat at my place when we got a freak extreme cold front, it was during Oct. My friend didn’t know any better and I didn’t consider the possibility, considering we live in the deep south. It barely freezes here in the dead of winter. Now, If I have to go out of town, I pay someone to stay at my house with him or he comes with me. Last year we drove to NY for Christmas and he did amazingly! My family spoiled him rotten. We were going to do it again this year, but I cancelled the trip for obvious reasons.
It’s been about 17 years since we’ve had a real health scare. Crazy, but at least with those other illnesses, we knew what was needed, but this plucking thing is crazy with all the maybes.

The turkey bone has me wondering. I showed the photos to my vet as a compare and contrast of feathers and told her pretty much everything I wrote in my first thread. He didn’t break the bone, but there was a smaller bone connected to it, that he destroyed. I’ve been giving him buffalo chicken bones for years and he does eat the marrow out of it. Last night I thought that his chest looked a little distended, but it’s the first time I’ve ever seen it without feathers. Today it looks flat. I’m going to ask the vet tomorrow about a chest X-ray. He’s still not eating much but still plays with his toys and we had a screaming/ singing match last night…but he’s still not dancing :-(
Would/could he be singing and playing if he had a bone lodged in his crop/throat/chest?

Vet said to give him whatever he wants to eat. I made fettuccine alfredo last night with high protein red lentil pasta and he went to town on it. After I give him his meds, I’ve been giving him either carrot juice or his favorite Naked Mighty Mango juice, to help wash the meds down. It’s still a far cry from his normal appetite. He normally begs worse than my dog. His cage is about 30 feet from my couch, god forbid I sit down with a plate of food without giving him some first. He’ll climb down his cage and walk across the room while muttering to himself & then peck at my foot until I give him some. Sometimes I do it intentionally, cause its really funny to see how offended he gets! I know, I’m a mean mommy!

I’ve attached his blood work analysis. Potassium, Cholesterol, & Uric Acid are all high. I neglected to say that she did do a stool sample, but I don’t know how to read it, but she didn’t seem concerned about it. Aside for the High in bold, I have no idea what I’m looking at. If I had one complaint with my vet, it’s that she thinks I understand these analysis’s. I have reminded her a few times that I’m a photography professor, not a veterinarian, assume I have NO idea what any this means. She does go over the things she’s concerned with though. She consulted with another specialist and they both think I need to continue with his meds and probiotic, with the addition of 3 to 1 mix of Flax Seed oil & corn oil. I’m giving 1.1ml twice a day. I did get a powered probiotic to use in combination with the gel. I’m putting the gel on my finger and working it into his mouth. I’m getting a little bit better with administering his meds, but I think it has more to do with me being resolved with the fact that his health is more important than him being freaked out. He still fighting me, but shockingly he hasn’t drawn blood…yet. I think he’s finally getting that the more he fights the more I kiss him…hence slightly less fighting. Brat! My vet said that I could try mixing the Flucon with food but she really wants him to get the full dose of Baytril, by any means necessary. She said I could double up and just give it once a day, but it just doesn’t seem like that would be in his best interest. He won’t touch any food with the meds in it, he doesn’t like powdered probiotic either. So back to syringes.
My vet wants to do more blood work in about a week or so.

I just put up damp towel, I never heard of that before. The mold issue never occurred to me with a humidifier. Silly cause the mold is out of control on a good day in Alabama.
I think the next purchase is going to be a air purifier.

I haven’t given him a bath in about two weeks. I think I’ll ask the vet first. Generally he likes to be soaked to the bone. He throws water from his bowl to let me know when he wants a bath. I do spray bottle and sometimes he showers with me. During the summer I hose him & the cage down outside.

We live in an older home, so I’ve always kept it pretty warm I raised it about 5 degrees since he started plucking.

I looked into the red heat bulb a bit more & my vet confirmed this, as well. Even if the bulbs are coated, the 25-40 watt bulbs don’t get hot enough to release fumes. I still ran it for about two days on the opposite side of my house prior to putting it anywhere near him.

I’m definitely going to ask about the milk thistle, my dog take it…why not Norman.

I have a somewhat odd question to ask…I joined this forum a few years ago.
I had recently moved in with my fiancé. Norman & Jack instantly bonded. Which seemed somewhat odd because we were together for several years, but not until we moved in together did they really bond. It was also odd because Norman has always seemed to prefer woman over men. I’ve never seen Norman react that way. It was bittersweet for me, because he’s never been that way with me, but they both just fell head over heals in love with each other. The real issue was that Norman became increasingly aggressive towards me during this time period. One night he flew off his cage and full on attacked me, I borderline needed stitches. I was just walking past his cage, Jack wasn’t even close by at the time. I was pretty distraught by this. That’s when I found this forum. I got amazing advise and suggestions. With y’alls help, Norman slowly started to accept me back in his life. Fast forward a few years, Jack and I broke up and Norman & I moved out. Jack denies it, but I think he misses Norman more than me
Now to the odd question…Could it benefit Norman to spend time with Jack now? We broke up a little over 2 years ago. It’s been about a year since he’s seen him. But even after a year, jack walked into the house and Norman jumped on his shoulder. It wasn’t a bad break-up and if I asked him to come spend time with Norman, I know he wouldn’t hesitate. I just don’t know if it could cause more harm than good for Norman…or Jack.
Any thoughts?


Thank you ALL So So much!
Rita

 

[Anita1250]

Don't feel too bad about any of these things. I used to smoke with Sam in the car. I know, I was young and stupid.

I think that maybe having Jack visit Norman may be counterproductive. If it is only a visit, and then he goes away again, it may make things worse.

The one thing I would never do is give a bird a bone. I am sorry, I know a lot of people do, but it would scare me too much. My Sam can splinter anything, and I would be so afraid a small piece would get stuck. Just my opinion, but I think they can live without bones. And I do think it may be a possibility that your Norman has some effect from that bone that is causing him not to want to eat. Perhaps a small piece caused an injury that is still painful? Hopefully, whatever it is, it resolves quickly. I am glad he chowed down on the pasta.

I think in birds, uric acid is an indicator of kidney function. When it is high, it shows some kidney involvement. I also think that when they don't eat it can affect the kidneys. Also, dehydration can cause this. High potassium can also be caused by dehydration. Perhaps getting some liquid into him will help.

Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and continue taking good care of him. Hopefully all will work itself out in the end. Good luck to you and Norman.

 

[RitaS]

Thank you Anita. I can't change the past, but it's easy to digress during times like these. I just gotta keep reminding myself that he's so strong.
At first I thought about asking Jack to come by once or twice a week, but ultimately it would end the same. I agree that is would be counterproductive. I'm calling my vet in little bit to see about scheduling an X-ray.
She mentioned that the uric acid wasn't extremely high. I think that's why she consulted with the other specialist and also why we added the flax seed oil to his diet. She also mentioned adding a tiny bit of salt to increase his drinking, but I figured the alfredo sauce had enough salt.
I never gave the bones a second thought...before. Safe to say he won't be getting them anymore. I don't eat meat, so it always grossed me out. I bought him a chicken breast the other day and got laughed at when I had to ask how to cook it. It seemed like the majority of his tests came back in a somewhat normal range, no need to push my luck with chicken bones.

When I was a teenager I wanted a salmon crested cockatoo. I was gonna name him Sam! He was breed at the place where we got Norman on Long Island. He was the most beautiful parrot! I was going to start my own lil gang of serial killer parrots. Norman is named after Norman Bates. I think the lead poisoning added to his slightly "psycho killer" personality.

 

[texsize]

This is a picture of Pacho (left) when she was plucking her chest feathers.

View attachment 21773

Pacho had been with me for over 20 years and never had plucking issues.

Because Amazons are not typicly birds the pluck I took her in to the vet right away/

I think she was also plucking from under her wings.


texsize

 

[Kiwibird]

Did the vet do an X-ray? Earlier this year my BFA began overpreening his butt (like no feathers at all left down there by the time we realized something was definitely wrong). I interpreted the behavior as it being itchy and the vet ran several tests and found the cause on X-ray- a massively inflamed kidney and one hell of a birdie version of a UTI. He was on meds for months and may have periodic kidney troubles for the rest of his life, but seems to have healed well and has seemingly been ok since.

I hope your vet can find the cause of Norrmans troubles and get him healthy soon!

Did they run blood work? I remember this story, but I can't recall if they found any abnormalities in the blood...seems like they would have.

Noodles, If I remember correctly Kiwi's CAV was excellent and did run blood, fecal, and the x-ray...The problem with just running bloods if the problem is a Kidney infection with birds is that yes, of course the CBC will show infection, but the Kidney Function Panel usually won't show any abnormalities unless the Kidney is so far-gone that the UA and other output/clearance levels are effected...I remember being totally amazed that Kiwi's CAV was awesome enough to actually request an X-Ray for periodic picking of feathers around the vent..Once you see something once, you remember it!!!

You are correct. Kiwi's vet didnt mention (or at least I don't recall her mentioning) anything in blood tests but the urinalysis showed something. It was the X-ray though that really picked up on the root of the issue and the most dangerous issue. Antibiotics only treated the infection itself. He had to be on kidney meds for months to help heal the kidney, which even catching it before serious irreversible damage was done could still mean he'll have kidney issues down the line (though he seems fine for now).

 

[Laurasea]

High potassium is linked with kidney disease, and with elevated uric acid, I'd say you have your answer, and your vet is treating for possible kidney infection. Sometimes the toxins released by bacteria hurt the kidney. The problem with the bone is it is a great place for bacteria to grow, and if it was still nice and warm, sat out for a bit, then you gave to your bird, who uses his unclean foot to seed even more bacteria into the bone, and I don't know how long you let him play with it....that's what makes it so aweful. I think your bird is going to start feeling better... But keep us posted!