"Solving" mature (BF) amazon male hormones?

[SilleIN]

Hi,

I am sorry I am making a new thread on a question I guess I could read a lot about in previous posts.

I don't have any amazons, but I do train a lot of other peoples parrots and I am frequently being asked what to do with the attacking and biting mature (bf) amazon males. As I have no first hand experience with living with amazons, I can't really help them. I advise them to train them every day, but often at this point, they can't even be in the same room without being bitten.

The solution more often than other is the bird being put down or sold on to the next unsuspecting victim.

I know neutering of birds is more used on your side of the pond than ours. We do have vets, who has the expertise to do the procedure (we don't have the CAV, ... certifications as you have, but some of the vets from the larger zoos often have that sort of expertise)

Is neutering a solution for those non-stop-attacking males? Or should the neutering have been done before they reached maturity?

Is there any other way to help those poor sexually frustrated males (other than giving them a female and making even more of the same problem)?

 

[chris-md]

By “hormones”, are you referring to annual hormones which only last a few weeks and disappears, or are you talking about puberty which last significantly longer?

The answer comes down to what you mean by “hormones”. And whether it’s amazons, ekkies, macaws, it’s all the same.

If they’ve past puberty, and they are nonstop attacking for months on end, hormones aren’t the problem, it’s behvaioral.

If it’s puberty (or even just the temporary annual hormones) - you can’t train the aggression out, you just have to avoid making it worse by way of them learning aggression gets them their way. They usually learn this outside of hormones but They can still learn this even in hormonal fits.

There are things you can do to POSSIBLY even out the hormones a bit and you’ve seen them recommended: don’t serve warm mushy food, ensure 12 hours of darkness, etc. And they are valid, and may take the edge off in some birds, But the truth is you can’t stop hormones, and can’t train the aggression out. These tips and tricks are the equivalent of taking an aspirin for child birth. And not all birds will respond the same to these tips.

What do you do? You hunker down and wait it out, doing the best you can. Because hormones are temporary. YOU adapt to the hormones, not the other way around.

 

[chris-md]

As an example of adaptation, I’ve heard plenty of accounts where amazon owners were only able to hold and transport their hormonal amazon with a stick or t perch until the hormones calmed down. Then hands can be reintroduced.

If they are doing the flying attack, wing clipping is a must for the safety of everyone, including the bird.

This can’t be restated enough, as it really highlights what the humans headspace should be: hormones are temporary and not much you can do about it but wait them out. Adapt as needed. Much of parrot ownership is us adapting to the birds proclivities; this is one example where we just have to accept what comes with the territory.

 

[SailBoat]

So well stated above! And, lets us not forget the lady's in this discussion as they can also be effected.

I have been around for a while, but I have not heard of Vets on this side of the Pond neutering in vast numbers. Not saying that it hasn't or doesn't happen, but it isn't common.

With the exception of those few Amazons that have a true excess of hormones and are non-responsive to medication, or are living in a 24 /7 Human lifestyle home. The vast majority of Amazon can live happy lives with their Humans if they are on a Sun Hour Day Life Style or one that is at a 12 /12 hours split.

One of the really big problems is the amount of Sugar Amazons are getting from Human fast foods, Fruits and Sugar Loaded Pellets. A less understood issue is the effects of Salt, which is also found in high levels in most Pellets (still being studied).

 

[chris-md]

Steven, I’m curious, as you know my knowledge base excessive sugar in the diet (day, from too much fruit) Is a definite hormone trigger in ekkies, a species we know lack seasonality in breeding season. How does the sugar play into amazon hormones? Simply exacerbating them when they do come around?

 

[SailBoat]

Steven, I’m curious, as you know my knowledge base excessive sugar in the diet (day, from too much fruit) Is a definite hormone trigger in ekkies, a species we know lack seasonality in breeding season. How does the sugar play into amazon hormones? Simply exacerbating them when they do come around?

Amazons are very easy to excite (wind-up) even when outside normal 'seasonal' effect. Actively playing with an Amazon you can see them spin-up into a rage. The combination of Seasonal Hormones and a Sugar High and one is faced with real nightmare. Outside the normal season, add Sugar and an easy to spin-up Amazon and you have a raging Amazon outside of season effect.

 

[chris-md]

Ok so you’re actually pointing out two things in one: excitability separately, and sugar high induced excitability at hormonal time. I see

 

[ChristaNL]

Neutering is one of the things that comes up A LOT-- the last parrot-day again:
the CAVs from the university showed us (once again) the anatomie of the birds and how this (the physical "snip") is almost impossible because of the likely damage to other nearby/ almost envelopping organs.
Males and females alike btw.

Since the bird hormones are very closely linked to the molt and feather-renewal in general... is has some serious drawbacks there as well...

I am glad this hormonal implant exists for chronic egglayers (and sometimes pluckers) but... since I am one of the humans that cannot really tolerate any birthcontroll/ added hormones withou some serious (physical and psycological) side-effects, I feel just plunking them in parrots "because it is convenient" is a bit oversimplifying things.
Many human females would rather do without, apes have been know to get rid of IUD's because they anoyed them to the point of selfmutilation. Great cats went bonkers etc.etc..
Is it still chosing albout the lesser evil, not the ideal solution.


So as far a birds go...
first change the envorinment ( sleep/rest hours), the amount of activity (a bored bird is a potential agressive bird), the food (rich food -> family-expansion-time!), toys (too many? not enough?) and cage (too small, to big?), train the human! (cringe, not cringe, how to reward)
just like most problem dogs actually just have clumsy/ problem owners..
and only then (as a very last resort) start in at modifying the bird.

I do not feel it is very fair to a bird to put it on mindaltering drugs/ meds just because the human is not there for 18 hours each day and it is all alone.
It is not the birds fault it is freaking out.

Is is also not fair to waltz into someones personal space (room/ house/ yard/ cage) and expect to be warmly welcomed each and every time...
and yet that is what we expect of birds!


sorry Sille, I know it is not directly an answer to the question.
But most of the time it is not about the parrot... it has everything to do about the humans controll about its situation and the humans expectation of it.

Humans do not want to play by the rules, get bitten and the bird gets blamed (and suffers).

 

[EllenD]

Well stated by everyone above...

Neutering of male birds and especially Spaying of female birds isn't done unless it's a life or death situation, such as cancer or uncontrollable bleeding, and even then it's very rarely done because it's nearly impossible to do...If you think about it, Spaying of female birds would be done all the time on a regular basis to stop chronic egg-laying/egg-binding, but instead they are using hormonal implants to basically chemically-castrate the female. Their organs are just way too small to remove. The end-result is typically either damage to other organs/structures, after-surgery bleeding, and in a very, very high-percentage of females and males who are neutered or spayed, they are still extremely hormonal, and they also often develop cancers such as "ovarian" or "testicular" cancer...how? Because these organs are so tiny in birds that most of the time the surgeon doesn't remove all of the ovaries or all of the testes, and the remaining tissue and/or entire remaining organs develop cancer, and keep producing the same amounts of hormones as before the procedure...So until better procedures are developed, it's just not worth it. Especially with how many birds die under general-anesthesia...

 

[SilleIN]

As mentioned I don't have any amazons, so I am not speaking out of personal experience, only what people tell me/show me via video or short visits to their homes/facilities.

I mainly have different species of macaws and some other species and I have all my birds trained to a point, where all can be handled even during the worst hormonal phase. But I also have species who by nature is more prone to cooperate for the flocks greater good. The times I have worked with amazons, they are just more "stubborn" than the toos, macaws and eckies I have.

The birds I am talking about are the 5+ years (ie. birds, who has passed the puberty stage) and they are all year attacking, not just during regular hormonal phases. I have only seen this with amazon males. Normally other species will just not want to interact and keep to themselves. These attack any time they get the chance. This means they can't get out of their cages. Then they try to build them aviaries, but even here, they attacked non-stop.

I have seen this happen now more than 5 times and have asked in a larger forum if anybody had a mature amazon male, that does not attack. Out of about 15 responses only 1 had a non attacking mature male amazon. Every body else could only have the bird out of it's cage when only one person was in the room/house. For this reason the birds only get to come out a few hours a day (if even that long). In my mind that is not a long time solution and basically a recipe for disaster.

I have said yes to such an amazon male from this spring on. He gets to share an aviary with some toos, but only if he does not attack the toos and I would think it was better for him, if there could be found a solution, so he could stay in his current home instead.

 

[chris-md]

At 5+ years they are not necessarily past puberty. This can hit amazons between 4-7 years, with some stretching up above ten years old, and last up to a couple years. You’re absolutely dealing with puberty it sounds like.

To be extra sure, you need to ask how long the behavior has been going on. I’d be inclined to believe it’s puberty if some keywords are thrown out such as ”sudden change”, or “relatively recent” - few months. I’d even accept “over a year” as an indication. Though at that point I’d also be likely to ascribe some behvaioral challenges to the bird given poor handling by unknowing owners for a protracted period of time (see my prior point about teaching birds to bite, even in hormonal fits).

Duration + age will be your primary indicator of if you’re dealing with puberty, overexcitability, or some other challenge related or otherwise (not the only indicator, gotta dig deeper, but should inform your line of questioning).

Hormones almost universally hit males stronger than females. Just part of the territory.

 

[EllenD]

Well just from my own experience working at an Avian Rescue for over 8 years plus the Amazon owners I know here in the forum, that isn't the case at all that I've seen...There are many owners of males Amazons on this forum, all species of male Amazons, who have great relationships with their birds, they live outside of their cages pretty much full time with their people, and they are often posting here about their birds happily...I suggest you go through this Amazon forum and check-out the posts of other Amazon owners to verify what I'm saying...

As far as at the rescue, over the years we've had many, many Amazons over the years, and as far as overall aggressiveness, I would not have thought of any Amazons as being the "usual suspects", not at all..So I have to wonder if the problem you're having or seeing is a "chicken or the egg" issue, where because you've got some aggressive male Amazons (probably due to hormones if only 5 years of age) they aren't given any out of cage time, and then being locked in their cage 24/7 is simply making them much more frustrated, bored out of their minds, and hence more and more aggressive...

I'm not saying we never see an Amazon with "behavioral" issues (though I've never taken note of their sex to be honest with you), but these are the Amazons of individual owners who have the time and patience to work with them every single day and use different ideas of other members to try to curb their hormonal-aggression, such as putting them on a "Natural Light Schedule", correcting their diets, separating them from other Amazons in the house of the opposite sex, removing all small, dark areas/boxes/huts/tents that they might have access to in their cages or in the house, etc. So while it may take some work to curb their hormonal-aggression, they aren't just simply ignored and locked in a cage for the rest of their lives. That may be the difference between a lot of aggressive Amazons in a Rescue and an individual family with one aggressive Amazon that they love and make a commitment to working with everyday and to doing everything they can to try to curb their hormones...

There are a lot of people here who are very experienced Amazon owners who have contributed to helping new Amazon owners in not only curbing their hormonal behavior, but in simply understanding Amazon behavior in-general, as it is a bit different than that of other species of parrots, as is that of Cockatoos, Macaws, Conures, etc.

 

[SailBoat]

Adult Amazons have, as a group, a base 'display' language that they use to communicate with other Amazons and Humans that take the time to learn it. Each Amazon will add to that foundation, but the basics are there. See Understanding Amazon Body Language at the top of the Amazon Forum.

Experienced Amazon owners approach their Amazons looking for responses from the Amazon regarding their approach. It becomes second nature and many of those owners do not even realize that they are in fact doing. It is common for an experienced owner to have begun a conversation with their Amazon from afar. The combination of vocal responses, and the Amazon's Body Language defines the interaction with their Amazon when they are up close and personal.

Only fools sneak up on a sleeping Amazon and surprise that Amazon with a Step-Up.

Amazons are social by nature and want to be part of a family group. That requires that they are physically located where the family gathers. In addition, they require high levels of Interaction from hands-on to sitting with individual(s) members or with the entire family.

Behavioral Problems resulting from abuse! We rarely have a complete history of a Parrot. Even when talking with a couple, what really has happened only comes up when one closely watches the body language of both the Amazon and the couple. It can become even clearer when one separates the couple and works with the each separately with the Parrot. In many cases, the individuals know they are abusing. In just as many cases they have never considered that their actions are abusive.

We so commonly forget that our Parrots have no Natural Reason to Trust Us! When they have a questionable history with Humans, why would they not lung and attempt to bite?

One of my Long provided Statements:
It is never the fault of the Amazon! It is always the Fault of the Human! Once this reality becomes part of understanding the interaction. The source (driver) can be identified. Once identified, one can begin correcting the actions of the Humans!