sleep pattern

[wulfie]

Hey guys,
I know this is gonna sound like a strange question, and I've actually been told on another 'grey' forum that it would be considered animal cruelty and I would loose my bird. The situation is this: I work nights, from 10:30pm til 7:00am, so of course we have blackout curtains in ALL our rooms, my fiance is on disability and stays up while I'm at work and goes to bed around 5:30am, I get home around 7am and am up til around 1pm. Here's the question that got my all kinds of heat on the other forum, would it be possible to change a grey's sleep pattern so that he/she is more awake at night (with a uva/uvb light of course) and sleeps or is at least quiet during the day if the room is dark and his/her cage is covered? Any input, other than flaming, would be greatly appreciated

 

[MaraWentz]

I don't see why not. As long as he gets the adequate number of hours and same nutrients. The first week is going to be extremely tough on the bird, so he will need extra nutrients for the lack of sleep. I cant say he won sleep with the lights on- mine does

And no, its not animal cruellty and your bird wont get takenaway. What are they going to say?
"Excuse me, I heard your bird sleeps during the day instead of at night?"
"Yes, sir."
"Is he healthy? Does he sleep the recommended number of hours? Are you feeding him properly? Does he have adequate shelter? Are you supplying him with water?'
"Well. yes, sir."

I don't see really what they can say to that lol. Seems very silly and ridiculous. Now, if your bird doesnt convert after a week, sorry, but it probably won't. Birds can adapt to alot o situations and arent too fazed. Alot of us have watched a bird doze off for a mid noon nap. Doesnt matter if the lights are on or off.

 

[wulfie]

here is the exact response I got on another grey forum
new member, no grey, yet

 

[MacawGuy]

As long as he gets his food water n sleep and eveything I don't see y u can't try in see what happens

 

[MaraWentz]

It's not impossible, but is hard. Erin sleeps alot during the day and isn't fully up and going until about 2 pm because I work all day and my hubby sleeps til then. I get home at 530 and we're up til about 11pm-12 am. We started off though, waking at 7 am and staying up til 8-9 pm. It's possible, but its hard. We accidentally switched her because we moved and she had to settle in to the new environment and wasnt sleeping well to begin with. I still wake up at 7 and put food and she eats it and goes back to bed until the hubby wakes. But with no interaction til 2 and were up til 11 to 12 am she sleeps and hangs around til then.

 

[MaraWentz]

I think the forum members didn't want you to try it because you're flipping everything its known, so its going to be tough adapting to it, but never in my llife have a seen a law that states
"under code number whatever, fines and/or imprisonment will result from flipping your pets sleep schedule."
He is a breeder telling you this and all breeders think they are right and will put down any other breeders are scam artists, inexperienced, etc. Some breeders are right though and are honest. Just alot are set in their way.

 

[MaraWentz]

I mean we do with hamsters and ferrets anyway

 

[wulfie]

hopefully getting a baby it won't be too much of a hassle getting him/her on our schedule, even on my days off we keep the same wake/sleep schedule, we're pretty consistent. We're not getting a grey til either later this year or early next year, just started on the chantix, figured after 30yrs of smoking that it's time to quit

 

[MaraWentz]

Yeah, you dont want to smoke around the birds anyway. And ababy should be no problem. I was thinking this was an older bird you had for a bit.

 

[greycloud]

I happen to agree with the poster from the other forum. It is not natural for parrots to be awake at night time. They are not nocturnal. They have internal clocks that function with the rising and setting of the sun. It would be like asking a bat to stay up all day and go to sleep at night. I think you will be asking for health and behavioral problems and expecting a lot from a little baby. Just sharing my knowledge as a retired breeder and owner of greys for 30 years.

 

[wulfie]

I'm not asking to make him/her nocturnal, he/she will still have proper lighting and nutrition, I bet you could even convert a bat with the proper lighting and proper amount of darkness

 

[MaraWentz]

Impact of light–dark cycle
The rhythm is linked to the light–dark cycle. Animals, including humans, kept in total darkness for extended periods eventually function with a freerunning rhythm. Their sleep cycle is pushed back or forward each "day", depending on whether their "day", their endogenous period, is shorter or longer than 24 hours. The environmental cues that reset the rhythms each day are called zeitgebers (from the German, "time-givers").[16] It is interesting to note that totally-blind subterranean mammals (e.g., blind mole rat Spalax sp.) are able to maintain their endogenous clocks in the apparent absence of external stimuli. Although they lack image-forming eyes, their photoreceptors (which detect light) are still functional; they do surface periodically as well.[17]
Freerunning organisms that normally have one or two consolidated sleep episodes will still have them when in an environment shielded from external cues, but the rhythm is, of course, not entrained to the 24-hour light–dark cycle in nature. The sleep–wake rhythm may, in these circumstances, become out of phase with other circadian or ultradian rhythms such as metabolic, hormonal, CNS electrical, or neurotransmitter rhythms.[18]

Therefore this rhythm (internal clock is set by a schedule, that occurs at the same points of time each day), so it can be set as a baby. Also if human have this same internal clock and are able to change their sleeping ways, so can birds.

Light resets the biological clock in accordance with the phase response curve (PRC). Depending on the timing, light can advance or delay the circadian rhythm. Both the PRC and the required illuminance vary from species to species and lower light levels are required to reset the clocks in nocturnal rodents than in humans.
Lighting levels that affect the circadian rhythm in humans are higher than the levels usually used in artificial lighting in homes. According to some researchers[36] the illumination intensity that excites the circadian system has to reach up to 1000 lux striking the retina.
In addition to light intensity, wavelength (or colour) of light is a factor in the entrainment of the body clock. Melanopsin is most efficiently excited by light from the blue part of the spectrum (420–440 nm[37] according to some researchers while others have reported 470–485 nm). These blue wavelengths are present in virtually all light sources, therefore their elimination requires special lights or filters which appear amber.
It is thought that the direction of the light may have an effect on entraining the circadian rhythm;[36] light coming from above, resembling an image of a bright sky, has greater effect than light entering our eyes from below.

This states that the correct artificial lighting can reset an internal clock.

To be called circadian, a biological rhythm must meet these four general criteria:
The rhythms repeat once a day (they have a 24-hour period). In order to keep track of the time of day, a clock must be at the same point at the same time each day, i.e. repeat every 24 hours.
The rhythms persist in the absence of external cues (endogenous). The rhythm persists in constant conditions with a period of about 24 hours. The rationale for this criterion is to distinguish circadian rhythms from simple responses to daily external cues. A rhythm cannot be said to be endogenous unless it has been tested in conditions without external periodic input.
The rhythms can be adjusted to match the local time (entrainable). The rhythm can be reset by exposure to external stimuli (such as light and heat), a process called entrainment. The rationale for this criterion is to distinguish circadian rhythms from other imaginable endogenous 24-hour rhythms that are immune to resetting by external cues, and hence do not serve the purpose of estimating the local time. Travel across time zones illustrates the ability of the human biological clock to adjust to the local time; a person will usually experience jet lag before entrainment of their circadian clock has brought it into sync with local time.
The rhythms maintain circadian periodicity over a range of physiological temperatures; they exhibit temperature compensation. Some organisms live at a broad range of temperatures, and differences in thermal energy will affect the kinetics of all molecular processes in their cell(s). In order to keep track of time, the organism's circadian clock must maintain a roughly 24-hour periodicity despite the changing kinetics, a property known as temperature compensation.

The only elements that you are required to really control is the type of lighting used, a set schedule for lighting (such as at the same time every day it must be on and off), and temperature. With temperature it is typically colder at night and warms up in the morning.

But sceintifically and with all that hoop-la included yes it is possible, but there are the adverse affects like stated of inosmnia, lack of nutrition, fatigue, and disorientation can occour if your baby bird does not adjust. ANd if he doesn't there is nothing you can do but give up. I dont see the problem with giving it a go for a week and supplying extra nutrients. My advice though is to slowly ween him off his set schedule now though. If he is up by 6 and sleeping by 7, wake him up by 7 and put him in bed by 8. Keep this cycle up you cant just expect him to go cold turkey. That's like you going to work, coming home and being forced to stay awake and work again, and not sleep for another 13 hours.

 

[wulfie]

very informative, much appreciated. I figured it could be done, our cats are on our schedule already.

 

[MaraWentz]

You're welcome Be sure to post that on your grey forum lol

 

[Wulfgeist]

very informative, much appreciated. I figured it could be done, our cats are on our schedule already.

Heh that part isn't too difficult if your cats are anything like mine. They have breakfast in the morning and then go down for their "naps" which last pretty much all day long and then are bouncing around the house getting into things all night.

As for the smoking, yes it is a huge motivator, at least it was for me. I started smoking outside when Jasper came home. That amounted to but a few a day. Pretty soon it just wasn't important enough to go outside and smoke. That and the fact that after paying $20 a carton for them in Puerto Rico in January I couldn't justify paying $90 for the exact same thing in Wisconsin.

 

[wulfie]

not to start a forum war, but OMG you guys GOTTA read this response I got on the same subject, different forum, new member, no grey, yet

 

[Wulfgeist]

::sigh:: Yeah I saw that. I am a member of that forum as well. All I can say is I am glad our mods don't act like that. This is the same person who posted to one of my threads over there about molting, fluffs and dust who proceeded to correct me that this dust I was referrring to was actually dander and how it was produced, etc etc.

I'm sure you are 100% correct, it's perhaps best to keep the thread to the discussion here about your original question. But then I'm no mod and noone's likely to listen to me anyhow!

 

[Aims]

OMG that Dave on the other forum is awful. I am so glad I am not on that forum.. I hate when people attack your schooling/upbringing just because they don't agree with you...

*Deeep Breaths* I need to forget what I just read before getting worked up.

IMO if the bird you are getting is young, (Just weaned) it may convert easily to your routine. They sleep a lot when young and it might easily fall into your pattern.

It also may not, but that might not be a problem it may just chatter away to himself whilst you sleep. Jax (Ecky) often wakes before me and chatters away. I have recently been sick and been having to have daytime naps (Cancer sucks the life outta ya at times) My room has blackout blinds but the lounge that Jax is in is all open and bright and he is happy asking himself "What are you doing?" and "Hello" Which is easy enough for me to sleep through. He gets attention when I am up and when the kids are around.

I fostered a Red Tailed Black Cockatoo and He screamed all the time, covering him or placing him in dark room wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

Basically the bird will decide if it will work or not. LOL...
The main thing is I don't think it is animal cruelty.

I'm not sure what use my opinion was but there it is.. Hehe... Good luck I hope it all works for you. let us know how you go.

 

[wulfie]

'mature' opinions are always appreciated, thanks Aims

 

[dawnkyung]

How many of us actually have our birds perfectly in synch with sunrise/sunset? I know I don't. While it's not a complete reversal of day/night in our house, I'm usually up before the sun comes up and Pino is up with me. If we sleep in, he sleeps in. He goes to bed when we go to bed, whether it's at 7pm or 11pm. I try to make sure he gets 10 hours of sleep a night, but it's not failsafe and he definitely doesn't follow the rising and setting of the sun perfectly. He's been just fine. Make gradual adjustments as has been already suggested and I think you'll be okay.