Should I finally step up the bonding process?

[AkridChaos]

Hello guys. It’s been at least six months now since I received Snowball from my niece. Those who don’t know his story, he is my niece’s bird but she wasn’t allowed to keep him at her house, and where he was staying...torture is the best way to describe what he went through, to which my niece begged me to take him because otherwise he would have died in very painful ways. Because of his traumatic past, I’ve actually kind of left him be. I don’t push him too hard because I don’t want to make him uncomfortable. The moment I see him shirk in fear in any way, I back off. I do my best to respect his boundaries, specifically when it comes to hands. I pretty much decided, if he wants to come to me, he’ll let me know, until then, I’ll leave him be as best I can. Well lately I can’t help but notice little things that are starting to make me wonder if he is ready for the next step. Which is why I’m making this post, maybe I’m reading too much into it, maybe I’m not.

Come January, I actually moved him and Lily into the same cage. They get along great, Lily fought me daily to stay in Snowball’s cage, and honestly I’ve liked the results. They keep each other good company, Lily plucks a lot less, and anywhere Lily goes, Snowball follows. It’s odd to say that a female bird is more bold than a male one. Lily is very adventurous, and Snowball just tags along after a bit.

I play a game with Lily (ring a bell on a chair with toys on it, she either chases/attacks the bell like a cat, or tosses/chases toy balls off the chair). I have treats on said chair. Sometimes Snowball comes over to eat all her treats, most times he stays on the cage tweeting away. Well today, he actually came over and made an attempt to play with me. It was short lived, because hand moving with bell spooked him away, but it was still an attempt.

Also the other thing to note, when I have to put him away because work or bedtime, I use a dowel rod (not my hand) to get him into the cage. If I use my hand he gets really scared. Well as of late, maybe the past month, he VERY HAPPILY jumps onto the dowel rod and chirps at me (his fluffed up body and eagerness to hop on, plus the chirping directly at me, tells me he is happy doing this). I also had one last thing to note happen maybe two (?) weeks ago. I finally moved them into the designated bird room (was finally painted), and when I let them out after about 3 days in there, I turned to get some millet to put on top of their cage. Normally Snowball runs away from me because hand coming into his safe space. But this time he ran right up to me and started eating it right from my hand. I feel like I could be reading too into this, but I can’t ignore the things he’s been doing recently. Is this him telling me he is ready to trust me? I don’t want to scare him away if he’s really not ready, but I did tell myself “when he comes to me he will be telling me he is ready”. Is he ready? Or am I going to scare him off if I try to make friends?

 

[madbradjohnson]

Wow, you have some patience. Hats off to you. I don't have budgies. I have Eclectus parrots. My female, at once stage would attack anyonce, unprovoked.(still not sure why this happened). One time she was on the floor, (we let them walk around) and she ran straight to my son's face and bit him on the cheek. (Sadly since then nobody in the house will touch her except me).

In any case, I tried everything. But to cut a long story short, nothing worked. I remember, as a kid going to a Zoo and met a "bird whisperer". He has trained cockatoos for TV adverts etc. So I emailed him and explained my situation.

He told me, to take my parrot, and hold her snug next to my chest. Everyday, sometimes more than once a day for a couple of seconds, and talk very softly and soothingly to her. It took about 2 weeks and she has never ever bitten me again and she freely and willingly comes to me with no trouble.

I think you are on the right track with your birds!

Good luck!

 

[MonicaMc]

Monkey see, monkey do!

From the sounds of it, they are benefiting one another by being together in different ways!


So yes, he's "ready" as long as you keep interactions with him positive!

 

[AkridChaos]

Monkey see, monkey do!

From the sounds of it, they are benefiting one another by being together in different ways!


So yes, he's "ready" as long as you keep interactions with him positive!

Haha yeah, it’s really crazy how much they depend on each other. Lily is just so bold and spunky about everything, and it’s really starting to rub off on Snowball. Anything she does, he has to do. She’s eating pellets? I want some of that too! She’s eating some other strange food in the cage? I want to try too! Lily flew off into the other room to explore the house because mommy accidentally left the bird room door open? I want to explore too! (Lol that happened this weekend. Left the door open upstairs by accident. Cousin freaks out. Nearly gave him a heart attack because he went to use the bathroom and Lily started flying at him in there. Of course I go in there to get them, and Lily just has that mischievous glint in her eye, while Snowball tweets in happiness. It’s little things like that instance that really show how much he’s opened up...and how much of a trouble maker Lily is. Lol)

I’m glad he’s opening up more now and showing his own personality finally. I just don’t want to scare him away is all now that he’s starting to express himself some. It’s hard to read him sometimes. I know he pushes himself out of his own comfort zone at times and then goes back to shirking away in fear. Shortly after I got Warbeak, I think Snowball was slightly jealous of the attention he’d get on my shoulder. I think this, because he ended up doing something drastic. Snowball came to the couch I was sitting on, climbed up my arm, and sat on my shoulder. He was terrified out of his mind though. Feathers slimmed down, heart racing fast, eyes bulging. But he sat there. Sadly, after about a minute, I felt a sneeze coming on. I didn’t want the noise to scare him so I went to plug my nose. Hand movement scared him away for good, and he ran off in fear of me for a week. He hasn’t been on my shoulder since. It was just an odd, freak thing he decided to do. If it wasn’t for my darned nose... Lol no he wasn’t comfortable up there anyway, it was better that he flew off. But this is exactly why I don’t want to push him. I can’t read his limits, and he can’t either. He occasionally does something drastic like that, then gets really scared of me and won’t stop flinching at my presence for like a week. I mean I completely understand his fear due to his past. It’s just upsetting to see him cower in fear of me after he does something drastic to get my attention. I don’t like seeing the poor guy so terrified.

I mean I guess my gut tells me he’s trying to tell me he’s ready to trust me, just out of all the things he does outside of his comfort zone limits for my attention. It’s just because of his insane fear after he does something drastic (like climb up to my shoulder, or attempting to play with the bell Lily chases around) that I’m not really even sure how to go about getting him to trust me. He’s a bit different than the standard ‘keet due to his past, which makes me a bit unsure of how to go about building trust with him, especially if he doesn’t know his own limits and it’s hard for me to read him. I guess he’s getting a little easier to read now that Lily is bringing out his personality, but he still doesn’t quite know his own limits. Hmmm. Maybe the trick isn’t with Snowball, but again lies with Lily. Like you said, monkey see, monkey do. She’s bold and spunky and loves to play with me, but she’s not hand tame and doesn’t land on me, but she certainly expresses her trust for me (except when mean mommy is taking the food/water didhes out of the cage in the morning LOL I think the size of them scares her). Maybe if I work on her first, Snowball will be a little easier to work with after? It’s a thought. Maybe it’s worth giving a try. Thoughts guys?

 

[GaleriaGila]

I can't recall if I shared this with you already...

A little tour de force on bonding (thanks to Kentuckienne for compiling it)!
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/49144-tips-bonding-building-trust.html

General Parrot Information - Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community

Blanchard PDF
https://journals.tdl.org/watchbird/i...view/1113/1092

And:
http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com/2012...n-parrots.html

A more scientific article
https://fall2016.iaabcjournal.org/human-avian-bond/

 

[AkridChaos]

I can't recall if I shared this with you already...

A little tour de force on bonding (thanks to Kentuckienne for compiling it)!
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/49144-tips-bonding-building-trust.html

General Parrot Information - Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community

Blanchard PDF
https://journals.tdl.org/watchbird/i...view/1113/1092

And:
http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com/2012...n-parrots.html

A more scientific article
https://fall2016.iaabcjournal.org/human-avian-bond/

A few of the links you sent didn’t work. Read through the first and last one you sent. I’m not too certain that clicker training one you sent me will work with Snowball. He’s a special case. If he hasn’t done anything drastic for my attention, he has no problem with me walking up to his cage. If he HAS recently done something drastic for my attention (like climbing up my shoulder that one time), he cowers in fear for the next few days to a week. He’s very odd. He really doesn’t know his limits/boundaries, and when he’s pushed them over the limit, he takes it out on me in a way and decides to fear me for a while. Like I said, very difficult bird to read at times, especially when he’s the one initiating contact with me. I do appreciate you sending the link though. I’m just not so sure the clicker training one with walking nearer to the cage will be appropriate for his behavior, since on a normal day he doesn’t care if I’m near his home. He only fears me near his cage after he’s done something of his own accord that was far beyond his comfort zone.

That last link you sent was a good read. Got through about half of it. I was never a believer in a “bird hierarchy”. Not so sure there’s a “king bird” in any flock. Then again it’s not like I’m out studying birds, it’s just you think of birds like geese, and there’s never a hierarchy. Closest thing is migration, where one bird flies in the lead, but it’s my understanding that when lead goose gets tired, they switch out to another bird who has the energy to take point position. Wonder who spread the rumor that birds try to pull a power move on you to try and be “big boss bird”. Lol. I know there was way more to that article but that part caught my interest most, people getting bad advice based off misunderstandings on birds, like “your bird is trying to act like the boss, so you have to OVERPOWER your bird”. Lol what?! Sadly I’m sure people believe it.

 

[MonicaMc]

Here's the links - I believe I've fixed the broken ones as well?



A little tour de force on bonding
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/49144-tips-bonding-building-trust.html

General Parrot Information - Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community

Blanchard PDF
https://journals.tdl.org/watchbird/index.php/watchbird/article/view/1113/1092

And:
Barbara's Force Free Animal Training Talk: How to Address Fear in Parrots

A more scientific article
https://fall2016.iaabcjournal.org/human-avian-bond/

 

[MonicaMc]

Thoughts? Food. Treats.

Years ago I had a small flock of 5 budgies. Three were second hand birds from other homes, two from a breeder. None were probably hand raised. All flighted, all adults. As an "experiment" I started feeding them food from my hands every morning before giving them fresh food.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUx81WHTUwk"]1 Bird in hand Leads to Many - YouTube[/ame]


Once they were comfortable with that, I then had my hand right outside of the cage so they had to come to the door, then hop onto my hand. After keeping this up, I was able to do the same behavior a few feet away from the cage.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSm4uFZzVU"]More Budgies!!!! - YouTube[/ame]



Once they finished eating, I gave them fresh food in their cages. They became pretty good eaters, too!

Of course because I was feeding my budgies this way, I ended up also doing the same behavior with cockatiels that were second hand, plus, birds. Some previously well loved and then neglected and others that were ex-breeders. The male ex-breeder I had actually showed the *most* change in behavior and kept it consistent as well, even when *I* wasn't consistent in keeping up the behavior!


And if I would have kept at it, this could have also worked with a wild caught african ringneck.

I wasn't planning on doing this behavior with the cockatiels though.... so like I said, monkey see, monkey do! It was one cockatiel's idea, and it just kind of kept going for a while with the other tiels.



A clicker is not necessary in clicker training, but it *can* help. The main thing is, is training using the concept of what clicker training is about. Positive reinforcement training.



Also, I feel like a lot of the whole "alpha" crud came from dogs.... which was based on taking strange wolves and putting them together in 'captivity'. The "top wolf" was then the alpha or pack leader. Only, wolves out in the wild don't act like that... they have a family. The only "leadership" is that of parent to offspring, not who is pack leader because they're strongest. People clung to the idea and it spread like wildfire.

I've even had one person tell me that the goose in front of the "V" was the alpha goose and leader... *smh*

 

[AkridChaos]

I like that “how to address a parrot’s fears” article too. It makes it a little more confusing trying to understand Snowball though. His fear response is his doing in a way. I make absolutely certain I’m not doing anything to scare him. HE’S the one who decides to come out of his comfort zone to try and get my attention like how he sees Warbeak/Lily getting, then gets insanely afraid and backs off. And of course when he’s scared, I leave him be as best I can. I guess if I think about it, technically I’m what’s triggering the fear response, but I can’t quite control him going out of his way to come up near me. The only logical thing to do now is to stick with the philosophy “he’ll come to me when he’s ready” and try to make friends with him as best I can without scaring him, making him understand I’m not the previous person who was “taking care of” him and I won’t hurt him in any way. I don’t doubt me trying to bond is going to scare him. I’ll have to take it EXTRA slow, slower than a normal parakeet would take, just to make sure I don’t trigger the fear response. I don’t want me being his fear trigger at all. He wants my attention, I can tell in his actions, he wants to play with me like the others do. It’s just he’s had a bad past with a child human, and it’s like he’s taking it out on every human (because that’s what animals do sadly). So it’s only fair now to work on giving him the attention he’s finally decided he wants. I like your food trick you posted, but that one will have to wait. He has an insane fear of hands, so there’s no way he’s going to go anywhere near my hand, no matter how hungry he is. I did read another article in the parakeet forum http://www.parrotforums.com/budgies-parakeets/72068-taming-bonding-budgerigars-tips-beginners.html that I really liked. I think I’m going to try that hand technique around the cage since it’s nice and slow paced enough for Snowball. I’m HOPING it will help him at least a little bit when it comes to my hands. I can take things from there after that fear is lessened or removed.

 

[MonicaMc]

Okay, so what bout Lily? Will Lily eat food from your hands? And can you feed Lily by hand and have Snowball watch?

It doesn't matter if Snowball is afraid of your hands or not, we want to work *WITH* Lily. If Lily can do it, then so can he!


Try it for at least a week. Don't bother trying to get Snowball to eat from your hands, just do the activity with Lily. Feed her seed or millet or any other favorite treats. Let Snowball watch. Let him decide.



When I started feeding the budgies by hand, most of them weren't trusting of me! When I started this behavior with the cockatiels, it was only one cockatiel that had any desire to interact with me in this way! Just one! And then a second one did. And hey, if two of them do, why not the rest? Including one male cockatiel so afraid of human interaction that the last thought on his mind was being anywhere near me! And yet... he did it!


The cockatiel that started it... hand raised then ignored - came from a smoke filled home

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88bN30qOjo"]Sunshine in the Morning - YouTube[/ame]



The second cockatiel... her first(?) home sold her (and her mate) at a yard sale... the second home kept her (and mate) outside on their enclosed porch, then gave her (and mate) away to some friends who had moved into a new home. There, her mate died. The people would dump her food dish on the bottom of the cage and refill it. Mice, even in broad daylight, would climb into the bottom of the cage and forage for food. Somewhere along the way, the bottom tray and cage bottom rusted out. "Rust holes" you could say...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9w9w8nMRmw"]Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]



And yet, she demanded this interaction with me - merely from watching the first cockatiel. Her behavior changed a lot!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH9ZWxhCSAE"]Not So Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]


And the skittish, ex-breeder. The first cockatiel, Sunshine's father. Pistachio. The bird who would avoid me if I came to close and wanted nothing to do with humans. I was shocked the first day he landed on my shoulder, waiting for me to feed him by hand... or the day he flew up from the ground and landed on my hand - which was then empty of food to feed him... but he waited patiently as I went and got him more food - moving ever so slowly so as to not scare him off!

Included in this video is Tomi Girl, a cockatiel that somehow ended up outside, then in the hands of animal abusers (abuse through neglect - house overrun with cats and kittens, many with respiratory infections, the adults were/are chain smokers, everything stained yellow with nicotene [like the cage Pistachio, Sunshine and family came to me in], smoke so thick you could see it float around... and the 'kids' were excited to get a parrot to teach "him" to talk and smoke weed with them. When *she* did not perform as they expected her to, they neglected her almost to the point of literal starvation. She was probably close to 50% underweight when I stepped in and took her and heading down the chronic egg laying hole...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjKmHswgiHs"]Cockatiel Feeding - April 24th - YouTube[/ame]



I get it that Snowball is the one putting himself in these situations where he ends up more scared than before! I had a conure that was kind of similar. Jayde was so afraid of human interaction but at the same time she desired it *so* badly! I don't know what caused her to be that way, but once she took that first step and climbed onto my shoulder, she was the happiest little bird ever! We still had a long ways to go, but it was a start! And any time she became afraid, I always took her back to her cage! Snowball is clearly ready, he's just "stuck". He's still on high alert, but it's just the beginning! The more he learns to trust you, the calmer he'll become.

 

[AkridChaos]

I like your thinking. Lily will be much easier to get eating out of my hand. And anything Lily does, Snowball HAS to try. Lily I’m confident will take only a few days to maybe a week to get eating out of my hand. Snowball will follow maybe a week or more after she does it regularly. Thanks for the great tip! I’ll have to try this tomorrow morning. They already ate breakfast and are having a blast flying around the room before I get ready for work.

Beautiful birds by the way. Lol is it bad that I actually find it adorable that they’re fighting over who gets to eat out of your hand? I know they’re just fighting over the food but, they’re still fighting while on your hand lol

 

[SassiBird]

In addition to Monica's suggestions, there may be an opportunity with Snowball with the dowel you use to put him back in the cage and the millet you give him. Sounds like he interacts with little hesitation with those two items.

Before you present the dowel (or millet) move your hand a little bit closer. We may be talking *millimeters* here with Snowball. Only you will know what he will accept. But the goal is to get him to accept the dowel or the millet with your hand closer and closer over time (weeks, months) until eventually he is essentially touching your hand.

 

[AkridChaos]

In addition to Monica's suggestions, there may be an opportunity with Snowball with the dowel you use to put him back in the cage and the millet you give him. Sounds like he interacts with little hesitation with those two items.

Before you present the dowel (or millet) move your hand a little bit closer. We may be talking *millimeters* here with Snowball. Only you will know what he will accept. But the goal is to get him to accept the dowel or the millet with your hand closer and closer over time (weeks, months) until eventually he is essentially touching your hand.

I’ll be sure to give this a try too. I was already actually trying it a little bit, but I think I may have moved my hand too noticeably closer for him, because instead of jumping up happily, he was running away to the back of the cage and staring at me like I was going to eat him or something. The moment I returned my hand to the back end of the dowel, he had no issues hopping up and tweeting away. I only did it for about a week and gave that up. But you mentioned millimeters. That may be what it takes. I had my hand at about the 2/3 mark instead of completely at the other end. Yeah, I guess it’s enough that the smart little scaredy munchkin noticed and was like “NO MOMMY DON’T HURT ME PLEASE!! *runs*” Millimeters it is. Or maybe inches. Inches at a time, maybe one inch a week, and see what comes first, him eating out of my hand, or him being nearer my hand on the dowel. I mean if the eating out of my hand happens first, he might not need the dowel trick after that. We’ll see. All great ideas guys. Thanks. Glad I joined this forum lol.

 

[MonicaMc]

Please keep us updated on Lily and Snowball!

And yes, tiny steps! It's hard when you want to make big steps but they need tiny ones!

 

[AkridChaos]

Well it apparently didn’t take Lily days. It took her minutes to eat out of my hand. She was mildly hesitant at first, then just started noming food. She found ways to not have to jump onto my hand which is fine for now I think. She’ll jump up when she’s ready. Snowball I’m a little more surprised about. Lily was eating, he got curious. He got brave and eventually stole one seed, of course got scared, and ran away then flew off. It’s a start. But him flying off spooked Lily, and that was the end of morning one eating out of hand session. But it waa way more than I was expecting for the first day. I’d have taken pictures but I wasn’t expecting a success with Lily right away, so my phone was still in my bedroom. Plus I think the phone would have scared them both anyway.

 

[AkridChaos]

Morning 2, complete success with Lily. She fluffed up all her feathers at the sight of me, ran up to where my hand was, and climbed right on and ate away. Snowball again just stared from a distance, decided to be brave, took 4 seeds this time, and ran off to a far corner of the cage to cower away in fear as per usual when pushing his boundaries too hard. I’m not so sure he’ll walk up to me tomorrow, but Lily certainly will! It’s a good start!

 

[Squeekmouse]

Even little steps forward are still steps forward! Yay!!! Thanks for the progress reports, I love it!

 

[Jen5200]

Such great progress! Snowball had such a rough start, I love that he’ll take a run at it even if he’s scared. It bodes well for continued bonding with him

 

[MonicaMc]

Although it doesn't seem to be much for Snowball, those are pretty big leaps! The more he gets accustomed to it, the more relaxed he will become! He just needs time but I think you'll find that it'll go much faster than you think!

 

[AkridChaos]

Well, days 3 and 4 yielded no success with either of them. I remembered to remove their food overnight on day 3, but forgot I put a treat stick in there after cleaning the cages. Day 3 they had already pigged out on said treat stick. Day 4 was a fail because day 3 was lol. But today, day 5, it’s baby steps back to day 1. Lily found ways to not be on my hand to eat. And Snowball, he flew onto my hand. It wasn’t even for a second. The moment his feet made contact, he pushed right off and continued flying, then commenced to cower in fear as per usual. he tried at least. Better luck tomorrow.