Recently got an African Grey... will I be ok?

[danbrah]

I recently adopted an 8 yearold african grey, i've had him for a month now however I am thinking now that it will never be possible for me to teach him anything or be able to pet him.

He seems more like a wild bird in the sense that he won't learn anything and purely acts like an animal, if I try to teach him anything with food he will do nothing and if he see's the food he will chase it and ignore everything else.

He will constantly fly to certain spots I try to teach him not to go to for the past month. I immediately remove him from the spot and I tell him no, I tried teaching this by putting him in the cage, removing him with force by a stick in these situations, or by spraying him with water when he does it without a treat ( I usually mist him and give him treats) etc and it simply seems absolutely nothing will go into his brain.

He also can't talk any words, he knows only a couple from his previous home but the words are really hard to understand and it's basically the answering machine.

He honestly seems hopeless to me right now. I was told he loves being pet on his stomach and later his head but for me or anyone in the family he will attempt to bite you if you try.
However he has been socialized from birth from what I know and he generally wont bite you hard were you will bleed.

Idk what to do :[

 

[MonicaMc]

If it's only been a month and you are giving up already, it may help to find a more experienced bird person to take him in.


However, if you don't want to give up on him then look into positive reinforcement training. (aka clicker training) The more positive experiences he has, the better he'll become. Spraying him with water is not a positive experience unless he enjoys it.


The more negative experiences he has, the less likely he'll enjoy spending time with you. Sounds like he's having more negative than positive experiences..... so you need to change things up.

 

[danbrah]

If it's only been a month and you are giving up already, it may help to find a more experienced bird person to take him in.


However, if you don't want to give up on him then look into positive reinforcement training. (aka clicker training) The more positive experiences he has, the better he'll become. Spraying him with water is not a positive experience unless he enjoys it.


The more negative experiences he has, the less likely he'll enjoy spending time with you. Sounds like he's having more negative than positive experiences..... so you need to change things up.

where is the best play to start learning clicker training?

 

[MonicaMc]

Barbara Heidenreich and Lara Joseph have *GREAT* blogs! Barbara also sells books, DVD's and has an online magazine. Any of these would be great! Although neither uses clickers, it's the idea behind it... positive reinforcement/applied behavior analysis.

Karen Pryor and Melinda Johnson both use and recommend clicker training. Both have books on clicker training animals.

Susan Friedman trains based on the science of behavior - ABA (applied behavior analysis).

There's also Steve Martin of Natural Encounters who has some good advise on his website.


Any info from any of them is great!

 

[danbrah]

Barbara Heidenreich and Lara Joseph have *GREAT* blogs! Barbara also sells books, DVD's and has an online magazine. Any of these would be great! Although neither uses clickers, it's the idea behind it... positive reinforcement/applied behavior analysis.

Karen Pryor and Melinda Johnson both use and recommend clicker training. Both have books on clicker training animals.

Susan Friedman trains based on the science of behavior - ABA (applied behavior analysis).

There's also Steve Martin of Natural Encounters who has some good advise on his website.


Any info from any of them is great!

I would really like him to learn in a way that he isn't only being good because of a treat but because of a bond with me, so that he will do things still when no treat is involved.

You gave me a lot of options, knowing this what one specifically would you recommend I follow?

 

[Birdman666]

First of all CAGS are not generally touchy-feelie lap birds. (That would be your toos and macaws!)

CAGS generally get handled on their own terms, and you have to go at their own pace. Each bird is different.

CAGS are stubborn.

CAGS generally talk, but nothing is guaranteed, and just because he CAN talk, doesn't mean he will let his guard down around you and start talking.

Lotsa times with these guys, you leave the room and they don't shut up. You enter the room and they start studying you...

Give it time. It takes a little bit longer to gain the trust of a CAG. Unless he is totally comfortable with you he is not going to trust you to the point of allowing touching.

If he isn't drawing blood on you, he's tame for a CAG in my opinion. A CAG has a beak like a scissors. If he wanted to send a message, you'd be bleeding.

If you're not, it's a good sign in my opinion.

 

[MonicaMc]

Training is part of the bonding process. So what if you have to use treats at first? Once your bird learns that you are fun to be around and interact with, after a while treats are no longer all that important! Your bird will enjoy doing things because he or she will learn that doing those things will result in you! And you are fun and exciting! Treats are a bonus!

I would recommend any or all! All have great advise when it comes to working with birds!


Barbara Heidenreich
Training Parrots | Parrot Training DVDS & Books
Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk

Lara Joseph
THE ANIMAL BEHAVIOR CENTER LLC.
Lara Joseph | An animal training, behavior, and enrichment specialist.

Susan Friedman
Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com

Karen Pryor & Melinda Johnson
Karen Pryor Clicker Training | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training

Steve Martin
Natural Encounters, Inc.
Natural Encounters, Inc.

 

[Zumaria]

All of the above is good advice. I had a CAG once that took MONTHS (like 6-8) for him to let me pick him up. Another several months before I got a head scratch and I'd had him a couple years before I could tickle him under his wings. CAG are not the most cuddly OR trusting birds. They are used to be hunted and are always on guard. Some take more time than others and Woody might have just been an extreme case but my biggest advice to you is to be consistent in your routine and patient.

I adopted a CAG on Saturday so she's been home with me now for several days and has barely said two peeps even though at the rescue center everyone commented about how she wouldn't shut up. She just isn't comfortable yet, and that's OK.

Just remember, you have a lifetime together - everything will happen in good time.

 

[legal_eagle]

If I were you in this situation, I would get his wings clipped. A parrot with clipped wings will be very reliant on you to pick him up and he won't be able to fly away from you. It changes their whole attitude. Also, clipping the wings is not a permanent situation, as they will grow back, but usually the bird will have come to trust you by that point.

Also, just try to be happy with the progress that your bird is capable of. One month is a very short to time to expect him to be learning new things, especially since he is mature and rehomed.

 

[danbrah]

Thank you so much for the great replies!
I do have one question, I am thinking of clipping his wings however i'd love not to since he has never been clipped in his entire life.

He likes to fly on top of my door all the time, what would you guys recommend I do to get him off the door / or learn to not go on the door?

The only way I can get him to come off from there is by 2 methods..

1) give him a treat
2) use a stick

both seem bad, as i am rewarding him for going up there for 1)
and for 2) it is bad because he hates being forced with the stick

what would be recommended for this? if there is no possible good way to do this I may get him clipped.

 

[Featheredsamurai]

if your grey is a confident flier I would leave him unclipped, try target training. That way you can target him to fly back to his cage.

This is a basic video that offers a basic understanding of target(and clicker) training.

[ame=http://youtu.be/uqtptXFyb2c]How to Target Train Your Parrot | Parrot Training - YouTube[/ame]

 

[thebirdnerd]

I personally would clip him...You can always let them grow back in once he is trained.

 

[MonicaMc]

What's wrong with giving him treats? If he comes down from the door, then he'd get a treat for coming down! That's not a treat for staying up there!


Sounds like you need to work on recall training.
flychomperfly's channel - YouTube
Living with Flighted parrots
Carly Lu?s Flight Blog Recall Training | Carly Lu's Flight Blog
Teaching Flighted Recall: First Steps | Best in Flock - Parrot Blog
recall training | LibertyWings.com
Flying Macaws: Recall Training

 

[sofiaee]

I think you need to do a lot of research and compare trainers and find which ones you like. Personally my favorite trainer is Barbara Heidenreich. You can learn from her a lot not just about particular funny tricks but also just about the psychology of training, which is really helpful! You should learn the differences between positive punishment, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, negative punishment etc. Here is a link to where she talks about this : parrots-and-punishment
parrot-training-terminology

You seem to be asking the same questions, you need to take the time to go through what we've posted for you and really soak it all in so you and your bird can get on the right track

 

[danbrah]

So much great information, thank you a lot!

I don't want to clip him since he has never been clipped in his life, it is really the last thing I would want to do.

What's wrong with giving him treats? If he comes down from the door, then he'd get a treat for coming down! That's not a treat for staying up there!


Sounds like you need to work on recall training.
flychomperfly's channel - YouTube
Living with Flighted parrots
Carly Lu?s Flight Blog Recall Training | Carly Lu's Flight Blog
Teaching Flighted Recall: First Steps | Best in Flock - Parrot Blog
recall training | LibertyWings.com
Flying Macaws: Recall Training

Thank you!
I have one question on the treat / getting him off the door.

Wouldn't he possibly associate going on the door in a way that he will then know that he will get a treat after flying up there?

So would the best method for now to get him to come from somewhere that he doesn't want to leave; be by giving him a treat after getting him away? (I first show him the treat and get him on my finger .. then give it to him)
The only other option I believe is the stick with force for now but that does seem worse.
I just worry that he will know that he gets treats if he goes somewhere I don't want him to.

I am also planning to randomly give him treats whenever I leave and reappear to him and at random times to possibily give him more positive association with me

 

[MenomaMinx]

So many things wrong here :-(

21 years with Congo African grey and I never met one with an even remotely mean bone in their body until after he died. If I didn't already believe that Skinner was the devil, Hercules would have convinced me. Hercules was the most likely bird I was supposed to potentially adopt when I found my Kumiko at the consignment room. He was eight years old, was said to have an enormous vocabulary, and mean as all get out! It had to be one of the greatest WTF moments of my life seeing this bird's level of aggressiveness in a species I don't associate that with at all. After watching him trying to take a chunk out of the store employee for the second time just to get him out of the cage, along with the aggressive body language, I wrote off the bird. I did get a reason for why he was upset with me {and pretty much all of humanity} a bit later.

Now I had already decided I didn't want him. I already decided on what bird I did want. I just felt horrible about the idea of doing nothing to figure out why that gray was probably going to be homeless for next 80 years of his life. After talking to him, he did finally tell me – which I'm pretty sure he did out of frustration. Hercules made clicker noises at me!

You got it. Hercules was pissed because no one was giving him commands to do, and he didn't know any other way to interact with human beings apparently; so apparently, not satisfied with the automaton they had created, the original owners put him up for consignment sale.

And as for that huge vocabulary, according to the staff there was no indication he knew a single word meaning, so what exactly was the point?

Because I kept going to visit Kumiko for prolonged hours before finally taking her home, I had close encounters of the idiot kind with more than one owner of young grays who were too stupid to understand the bird was more important than the investment in the toys and in the stands and in the cages – and would get extremely cagey with me when I asked them questions about their grays. It was amazing how many of those people knew exactly what was wrong verbally, but still refused to take responsibility when they got bit or any number of other things.

Look, if you're going to have a flighted gray, it needs to be micro-chipped – and you can't have a flighted gray that can get above your head, or cage that is going to put the bird above your head, or anything the bird is going to have access to it will put the bird above your head ......if you cannot trust the bird. What I think happened here is you wanted a hand fed baby and adopted eight-year-old with emotional baggage. Hand fed babies are lap birds and will stay that way within the bounds of their personality so long as you treat them that way-- which takes a huge amount of attention on your part .

It's not hopeless. You are just going to have to reconnoiter your expectations towards patience , and start work on decoding your grays language {just because a gray can be taught by clicker to do certain things, doesn't mean the bird actually connects with you – clicker training is a Band-Aid for behavioral problems. You still should attempt to figure out why). Let me put this in perspective: it took me two bedridden months to completely decode the language of my red factor Canary (which I did well enough to chew out a researcher who claimed they had no nouns(among other missing linguistic elements) in a published paper ). For the record, red factor canaries use spatial position and gestures which is augmented by three majorly used noises – the songs are not the language in the terms of people think of sentences as language.

Start by figuring out what is specific to your African Grey as opposed to what all/most African grays do. If still possible,, try finding out as much about the bird's previous life before you as you can(something along the lines of what a typical day would consist of, coupled with worst-case and best case scenario would be ideal; but you most likely won't get this information unless the bird tells you :and it probably already has in its own way}

Case you haven't figured it out, I strongly disagree with most of what's already been posted here: but I can tell you that their methods will work for a relatively quick visible result .if you want a different psychological result from your bird towards you personally, this is not how you do it .I can write you a cheat sheet for universal gray body language, but you should've already been taught by your bird how to be a good pet human in some way by now .I guarantee the bird's trying to communicate with you, even if it's just telling you it's not wanting anything to do with what you want to do at that particular moment you're asking us to do something.

What has your African Grey taught you so far?

Be specific .

What have you learned from your African Grey?

This is where you start ......

 

[legal_eagle]

Menomaminx had a lot of good suggestions and thoughts.

I still think you'll get quick results that can lead to a very strong bond from trying a wing clip (I speak from personal experience with many birds). But you have to be comfortable with it, or else you'll be second-guessing yourself.

Good luck!

 

[danbrah]

What has your African Grey taught you so far?

Be specific .

What have you learned from your African Grey?

This is where you start ......

Thanks for the great post!
Disregarding the clicker training.. would you however support positive reinforcement? Treat for getting down places/leaving areas he wont do otherwise with force.
Treat for doing good acts etc?

What I have written down from you is the following for me to learn.


What is specific to your African Grey
Find out the typical day in perfers, worst day and best day.
What has your African Grey taught you so far?
What have you learned from your African Grey?



But then what do I do from there?
Could you provide me with a sheet for the body language? (I assume it's most the stuff that Is also posted online for telling general body language/meaning for greys) but if not, then i'd like to know

could you also direct me to a source with clear information to learn in what you suggest that I learn?
Would these sources be ok?
http://behaviorworks.org/htm/articles_behavior_change.html
http://naturalencounters.com/trainingEducationQA.html

 

[danbrah]

Menomaminx had a lot of good suggestions and thoughts.

I still think you'll get quick results that can lead to a very strong bond from trying a wing clip (I speak from personal experience with many birds). But you have to be comfortable with it, or else you'll be second-guessing yourself.

Good luck!

Idk, if he has never been clipped, wouldn't you prefer not to?
Generally he doesn't do any harm, he only fly's to spots that he likes when he is in his playful energy mood, otherwise he sits put. & It is not impossible to get him to leave an area that he shouldn't go so it is not absolutely necessary.

 

[Birdman666]

Thank you so much for the great replies!

The only way I can get him to come off from there is by 2 methods..

1) give him a treat
2) use a stick

both seem bad, as i am rewarding him for going up there for 1)
and for 2) it is bad because he hates being forced with the stick

(

Well, you're not rewarding him for going up there. You're rewarding him for coming down. And if you don't come down, bird, I will have to get my stick.

Allowing him to stay up there indefinitely, and ignore all commands, would be rewarding him... rigging up some sort of feeding device so he wouldn't have to come down if he didn't want to... that would be rewarding him.

What you're doing seems fine to me as well.

And a greening (not the one I presently own) showed me what he thought of my clicker training about ten years ago. Snatched it from my hand and bit it in half... That pretty much ended the clicker training thing for me. I use voice commands and hand signals.