Problems with Argyle my Hahns

[madparrotwoman]

We aquired Argyle about a year ago, he is a re-home. Since we have had him we have come to realise that he is an altogether different aquisition to Beau my CAG who in comparison is a piece of cake. There have been times in the past year when I have felt like we have made progress with him but I guess that it basically depends on his mood and that although he is semi-tame, he will never in fact be tame in the same way Beau is. I have also come to realise that a macaw, any macaw including the miniatures are not for the beginner but the well established owner. Personally I am not ready to be constantly bitten by a beak that is = to a sewing machine needle. Not that I would re-home him yet again, I feel that one re-home is more than enough for these sensitive souls. I'm sad to say that it has become obvious to me why he was no longer wanted by his previous owner

The main problem I have is Argyle's willingness to nip at every opportunity, sometimes it is almost a "friendly" nip but other times he will lunge with intent. Now this brings me to my main reason for posting. We have found that unlike Beau he doesn't seem bothered about coming out of his cage - never has tbh. Due in part to my feelings of guilt I started off enouraging him to come out, very often he just sits on the door of the cage (as you will see from my pics) but sometimes he will walk all over his cage nibbling here and there but when he decides to take off he does one of 2 things, 1. land on my head or shoulders - to be avoided at all costs as he will try to bite ears/neck/face area and he has done so on occasion. 2. Make a beeline for Beau's cage, this is equally stressful for me trying to keep them apart as this is Beau's territory and he will try to bite Argyle's feet or beak. No amount of persuasion will move Argyle from his position on Beau's cage, I have tried getting him off with a soft cushion but he clings on for dear life. I have been letting Argyle out of his cage less and less because frankly he isn't bothered and it is just too stressful to me. Today after allowing Argyle out I eventually had to save him from himself and towel him in order to remove him from Beau's cage.

I have consulted a behaviourist for help in the past but tbh I have reached the point of giving up so I'm sorry for the long post but felt I needed to give you all the background information first before asking "is it ok for Argyle to stay in his cage or is it a necessary for him to have out-of-cage time?" :54:

 

[Kiwis_mom]

We aquired Argyle about a year ago, he is a re-home. Since we have had him we have come to realise that he is an altogether different aquisition to Beau my CAG who in comparison is a piece of cake. There have been times in the past year when I have felt like we have made progress with him but I guess that it basically depends on his mood and that although he is semi-tame, he will never in fact be tame in the same way Beau is. I have also come to realise that a macaw, any macaw including the miniatures are not for the beginner but the well established owner. Personally I am not ready to be constantly bitten by a beak that is = to a sewing machine needle. Not that I would re-home him yet again, I feel that one re-home is more than enough for these sensitive souls. I'm sad to say that it has become obvious to me why he was no longer wanted by his previous owner

The main problem I have is Argyle's willingness to nip at every opportunity, sometimes it is almost a "friendly" nip but other times he will lunge with intent. Now this brings me to my main reason for posting. We have found that unlike Beau he doesn't seem bothered about coming out of his cage - never has tbh. Due in part to my feelings of guilt I started off enouraging him to come out, very often he just sits on the door of the cage (as you will see from my pics) but sometimes he will walk all over his cage nibbling here and there but when he decides to take off he does one of 2 things, 1. land on my head or shoulders - to be avoided at all costs as he will try to bite ears/neck/face area and he has done so on occasion. 2. Make a beeline for Beau's cage, this is equally stressful for me trying to keep them apart as this is Beau's territory and he will try to bite Argyle's feet or beak. No amount of persuasion will move Argyle from his position on Beau's cage, I have tried getting him off with a soft cushion but he clings on for dear life. I have been letting Argyle out of his cage less and less because frankly he isn't bothered and it is just too stressful to me. Today after allowing Argyle out I eventually had to save him from himself and towel him in order to remove him from Beau's cage.

I have consulted a behaviourist for help in the past but tbh I have reached the point of giving up so I'm sorry for the long post but felt I needed to give you all the background information first before asking "is it ok for Argyle to stay in his cage or is it a necessary for him to have out-of-cage time?" :54:

Im not a parrot expert but I can't imagine it be good for any Macaw or parrot to be in their cage majority of the time. Sometimes my green cheek nips at my ears, neck or face while on my shoulder but usually it is because he is telling me something. Sometimes I notice he will nip at me and then clean his feathers, I started to pet his head when he does this and he makes his little noises. I guess because we're bonded he's nipping to let me know he wants to be groomed?

I'm sure theres other reasons why Arygle is biting. Punishing him by keeping him in his cage I think will only increase the problem. Could you perhaps put a blanket over your Greys cage while you let Arygle have his time out? I'm wondering if handling him with gloves would help you? Have you tried to teach him step up or anything to keep him not bored? How about toys or a play stand? You say he flies, maybe having his wings clipped could resolve the problem of him flying over where he wants to go.

LIke I said I'm not an expert and have no experience with macaws. I'm looking to get one in the next couple weeks and have been reading alot about them. They are big chewers and require alot of attention and stimulation to keep them out of trouble.

 

[madparrotwoman]

Thanks for the response. Argyle is a miniature macaw so I'm not suggesting keeping a large macaw in a cage nor am I suggesting this as some form of punishment, like I said he really doesn't seem bothered about coming out. We have tried coving Beau's cage with a large sheet but Beau will bite through it or find a gap at the bottom. Argyle will step up but will immediately run up your arm toward your face and boy is he quick lol.

I have considered clipping his wings but only as a last resort, what is the difference between having him clipped and keeping him in his cage? Either way he is stuck in one place.

 

[Kiwis_mom]

Thanks for the response. Argyle in a miniature macaw so I'm not suggesting keeping a large macaw in a cage nor am I suggesting this as some form of punishment, like I said he really doesn't seem bothered about coming out. We have tried coving Beau's cage with a large sheet but Beau will bite through it or find a gap at the bottom. Argyle will step up but will immediately run up your arm toward your face and boy is he quick lol.

I have considered clipping his wings but only as a last resort, what is the difference between having him clipped and keeping him in his cage? Either way he is stuck in one place.

I think it is always best to clip a birds wings just so you have that control and they don't feel cocky. From what I've been told it's always good to build and work on a relationship when they are clipped. They depend on you. I guess all birds are different but if he is content with being in his cage and isn't plucking or showing distress I guess you don't need to have him out all the time. However I do think it's nice to let them out. I keep my cage door open and Kiwi goes in and out as he pleases. He is clipped so he hangs out on top of his cage or he clips down and comes over to me on the couch. He can get pretty nippy somtimes but I think he is starting to reach maturity and thinks he's the boss of the house. You should see him boss around my two yorkies

 

[madparrotwoman]

I've always been anti-clipping but I'm beginning to feel that as a last resort it is the way to go with Argyle. Not only does he think he's the boss - he is!

I do feel that I have failed with him though

 

[SharonC]

I'd suggest clipping. It often results in a change of attitude for the bird. You can work with him better, train him more effectively, and then let his flights grow back if you prefer. I clipped Freddie to allow better training, and he's much easier to handle.

Honestly, if I had an aggressive bird, I wouldn't take chances with him. Keeping him in a large cage would certainly be an option for me, if training didn't work. It sounds as if you've tried hard with him. Big bird bites can do damage...

Birds view their cages as their safe haven, if properly set up. We are the ones who think they're imprisoned. I do think time out is lovely for birds, but it's not always possible.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

I don't see clipping as a solution in and of itself, but I also don't see any problem with it. In your circumstances I think it would help you gain some control. What's the difference between being clipped and being left in the cage? When clipped he can be moved to different perches at different places around the home - he can see more, interact with people a bit more - but he will depend on YOU to take him where he wants to go. Pay attention to his behavior and figure out where he wants to be then bring him there only if/when he steps up nicely and stays on your hand.

Make him earn his privileges of other perches/rooms.

 

[madparrotwoman]

Thanks guys for all your help and advice. Having a birds wings clipped goes against everything I believe in but in Argyle's case I have exhausted all other avenues and so I have booked in for him to have this done on Friday, I only hope I am doing the right thing and that it actually helps and I don't come to regret it.

I'm also having a dna done to determine "his" sex.

 

[Aussie Ben]

Sorry to hear your having problems. Just wondering, have you tried any forms of training to re-direct his focus? Positive reinforcement, target training and all that? I don't have a macaw, but I do have two flighted birds and training can definitely help settle them down. As AD said, let him earn the right to do things he wants, by rewarding him when he behaves.

I understand why you don't want to clip his wings, but if nothing else will work it might be the only way. They will grow back, but in the meantime, you can tame him down a bit. Good luck

 

[Bobby34231]

Just a suggestion, if at all possible move the two birds to seperate rooms from each other where they can not observe one another, they may have a jelousy issue, with aggression from Beau towards Argyle and Argyle towards you, if this can be done i would set up Argyle and let him be for a couple of days, just like you would do as if he was new to the home remaining in his cage with as little stress as possible, occasionaly stoping by the cage or anytime in passing speaking softly and affectionally, after a couple of days then open the door and let Argyle come out if he wants, if he acts aggresively towards you, say no, turn your back and walk away, return a few minutes later and try again, the moment any agression is observed, repeat no, turn and walk away, it may take awhile but he will get the idea, after he has calmed down enough so that you can now stand in front of the cage without agression you can start on the handling part, if you don't already have a small soft plush toy i'd get one, start by making a light fist with your hand, then point your fingers dowward so that he back of your hand is facing the bird, slowly move your hand towards Argyle, if he lunges or makes any agressive moves, say no and turn your back and walk away, keep repeating every few minutes until the agression subsides, to not stress him to much I wouldn't make each session last more than an hour, when we get past the lunging its time for the step up faze,thats were the small plush toy comes in, using the same backwards fist extend to him slowly and give the command, step up, if he attempts to bit, do the, no, and walk away, repeat till you get the desired affect, once you have him stepping up and not bitting he'll probably try the run up your arm routine, using the plush toy in your oppisite hand block his path, return him to the training area, saying no and repeating, its always important to use a training area that is below your eye level to the bird, patience and consistancy are the keys to success, unless you can seperate them i don't know that any of what I've suggested will work, Argyle seems to focused on Beaus dwelling, I hope what I've written makes sense, its hard to say what you mean and mean what you say without doing it in person, Good luck........

 

[madparrotwoman]

Thank you Ben and Bobby,
Bobby your ideas are good but they are methods I have already tried and failed with, I have been in touch with other experienced owners and also a behaviourist so all these areas have been covered. I think that now Argyle is 4-5 yrs old he is more set in his ways and his behaviour has become very difficult to change. Beau and Argyle are as far apart as is possible in the house, they are in oposite ends of adjoining rooms, they can see and hear each other but are otherwise apart. They used to be in the same room together and moving Argyle into this room has had a positive effect on his mood, the main problem now arises when Argyle is allowed out of his cage. Unfortunately the only way to get them further apart would be to put one of them upstairs and I'm not willing to do this nor do I think either of them would be happy in isolation up there.

A light wing clip just might stop Argyle from flying onto Beau's cage, Beau incidently doesn't go near Argyle's cage when he is out so I'm hoping this might solve the problem, I'm just sorry it has had to come to this and I have had to go back on what I truly believe about wing-clipping. As Ben kindly points out though it isn't the end of the world and the feathers will be replaced.

I guess I knew before asking that there was unlikely to be another way but as I am new to the forum I thought it worth running past you guys. Thank you so much for all the responses.

 

[Bobby34231]

Sorry to hear your having so much trouble with Argyle MPW, remain stedfast and determined,keep the faith, you'll be rewarded in the end, best of luck to you and your fids............

 

[HRH Di]

I'm not necessarily anti-clipping, however, I would put it in the "last resort" category. So I understand your hesitation. However, in this situation, I think it may be a good option and in the long run, result in a happier Argyle and happier MPW.

I also feel that there is a difference between clipping and extended time in the cage. Although a clipped bird depends on you to move from place to place, they still get to be with you.

Also, a properly clipped bird doesn't lose all ability to fly, it just limits their height, range and speed. It isn't permanent, either. It just gives you time to establish a better relationship with him.

 

[Birdamor]

I don't believe in clipping unless a bird attacks other birds and hurts them regularly and I also would not consider keeping any animal in a cage for the rest of its life so that's my answer to your questions.

As to suggestions, I don't have a lot of experience with mini-macaws, I only have two, a 15 year old bonded pair (he is a Hahn's and she is a Noble) and I haven't had them very long (only three years or so) so I am no expert but, for what I've been able to observe, minis are closer to conures in temperament than they would ever be to the large macaws. They are noisy, nippy, independent and quite cantankerous, not large macaws traits. My minis don't like any other bird. NONE! They spend all their time scaring them off wherever they happen to be perching at the time, they don't allow any other bird to eat next to them and they can be aggressive toward them for no apparent reason. The female doesn't fly well and she will step up for you and loves to ride on your shoulder but that's about it in terms of relationship. The male is an excellent flier, will not step up and, although he does ride on my shoulder quite often, it took months for him to stop biting my neck whenever he would perch there so I know exactly what you are talking about (I solved it by wearing a large towel rolled up and draped around my neck whenver I was in the birdroom -he couldn't reach my neck so, eventually and as time went by, he realized there was nothing to fear from me and he got used to riding there without biting).

I don't really have any advice on how to make Argyle change. Clipping will subjugate most birds but it doesn't work with all birds and, even when it does, a number of birds would revert to their 'bad' behavior once they regain their flight. Plus, in a few cases, it has made things worse in the long term so I don't use it. For one thing, I don't like the idea of having to make an animal feel insecure and dependent on me to teach them that I can be trusted. The concept just doesn't sit right with me. Most of the birds I care for had one problem or another when they first came and Argyle sounds very much like my Hahn's but I don't really use any behavioral modification techniques. My training tools are time, good care and patience. I have found out that if you hang in there, give them a good life, and allow them to figure out there is nothing to fear, the aggression disappears. Of course, this only worked in terms of him not biting me because I doubt they will ever make friends with other birds. They are both too cantankerous for that.

 

[jillzes]

Bobby, you have some good ideas for helping Argyle. I had some of the same problems with a rehomed african Grey. She would not come out of her cage and trying to change it was a real challenge! With some of my rehomes, I would take a chair, place it by their cage and with some nice music playing would read to Packi. We have had her for about 8 years now and I can touch her, change her cage, have her step up for me and a number of other things. She has really come a long way!! But you have to be patient, keep things consistent, let them have some "free time" out of ther cage and time just to sit and communicate with each other. Packi will not allow me to pet her head or her back but that's ok for now...maybe one day...but for now I know she is happy and loved! Jill

 

[leomacaw]

I'm sorry to hear that...
I know how bad you would feel when you're trying your best to help him but he's biting you so hard...
Be patient. With time he will know you love him.

 

[bogo1]

I've always been anti-clipping but I'm beginning to feel that as a last resort it is the way to go with Argyle. Not only does he think he's the boss - he is!

I do feel that I have failed with him though

You have not failed! You are doing everything possible and seeking ideas. Given the physical and emotional pain involved you are really doing a great job. I agree with clipping for now. It will decrease at least two confrontational situations. ..his fly and attack thing and his let's do a vulture over Beau thing. Use a long T perch to move him if he gets himself stranded somewhere. Take your loving from Beau but try to stay emotionally available to the macaw and reward any friendly overtures. That is my advice for what its worth. If a corner is turned. ..well wings grow out and for now clipping will decrease the angst for all and increase safety for both of you. Mind you. I HAVE NEVER HAD MACAW! I am speaking from experience of caring for injured raptors.