Problems Hand Feeding Parrotlets

[OutlawedSpirit]

So first, this isn't about me hand feeding my parrotlets, not directly anyways. My babies are doing great! I'll post some updated pictures on Allison and Parker's thread after I post this, they are getting so cute and so prickly with all of their new pin feathers! Anyway, back to this thread.

When Allison and Parker were first brought up to Northern Illinois, they were sitting on a few eggs and a baby that was only a day or two old. The friend of mine that rescued them along with over a dozen other breeding pairs attempted to hand feed the baby. It made it for a while, until it started to feather out, but ultimately it did not make it. Everyone attributed it to the fact that it didn't get the first few weeks with its parents, and the stress of making the long, cold trip in the middle of February the first few days of life.

Fast forward a few months and I have a new clutch from Allison and Parker. Out of 6 eggs laid, I had 6 eggs hatch and all babies were doing great. As part of a business deal, I let the same friend that rescued the breeding pairs take the two oldest babies out of nest at about two weeks old. I pulled the other four babies about a week later, and they are all growing like weeds.

However, she contacted me today and has run into problems. The oldest baby, who would be almost 4 weeks old didn't empty it's crop overnight, then dropped dead later this morning. The other baby also did not empty overnight, so I went and picked it up this afternoon. It was severely dehydrated and weak. I got some warm pedialyte into it, flushed all the old formula out of the crop and it perked up tremendously. I am giving it partial feedings every couple hours for now, until I am confident it is moving food through it's crop properly, then I'll try a full feeding. It is also severely stunted in growth. Although it is over a week and a half older, it is smaller than my youngest baby, and they are from the same clutch.

I just don't understand why my friend seems to have so much trouble with parrotlet chicks. It seems to be only parrotlets. She is a for-profit breeder and regularly hand feeds everything from budgies, to conures, to quakers, to African greys, and macaws. All of her other birds always look great. They are of great weight and in excellent feather. She has several professional brooders, all set up at different temperatures for whatever age the babies in them happen to be. (We won't talk about my "brooder" right now.)

The only thing I can think of that is significantly different between our set-ups, besides the fact that I'm extremely jealous of her brooder set-up, is that we use different hand-feeding formulas. I don't know that either of them is better than the other, they are just different brands. I don't even know if that makes a huge difference with parrotlets, because I haven't heard of them needing anything special that other baby parrots don't need, and I use just standard "suitable for all baby parrots" Kaytee formula.

I'm sure that there are some people who will completely disagree when I say that I don't use filtered water, I just use what comes out of the tap, and I don't use special disinfectant, I just use soap and water to clean hand feeding instruments. About the most sterile I get is I use a new pipette every day. However, I am also only dealing with one clutch at a time, I'm not going between clutches, species, or anything like that.

I just wish I could figure out what is causing my friend to continuously loose these parrotlets so I could at least tell her something. Not just, well you suck at raising them. If anyone has any ideas, or have anything else that I should look into that I haven't mentioned, I'm all ears. I'm hoping I'm able to save this one I took back in today. As long as it's a simple get the crop cleared and progress as usual, it should be fine, otherwise, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[SilverSage]

First, there are weird differences between species and some people have terrible luck with certain birds. I know a girl who has successfully raised hundreds of conures and lovebirds but has HORRIBLE luck with cockatiels. They die on her routinely, so she doesn't raise them any more.

Because I've never raised parrotlets I can't speak to their specifics. There are random things like in Cockatiels if you overfill the crop it stretches and droops and you need a crop bra, but in Ringnecks you can stretch the crop to enormous sizes and everything seems fine, but baby ends up with a nasty bacterial infection from food sitting in the crop too long because there is just too much in there.

So here is my suggestion. If she can, hand your friend reach out to other parrotlet breeders or some of the hand feeding groups on Facebook (some are full of crazies but some are good). Have her give all the specifics of her setup and routine. Maybe someone with parrotlet specific knowledge can catch whatever tiny detail is causing problems.

In the mean time you should be on guard against bacteria and yeast in your stunted baby. Vet if possible please! And keep us updated?


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[OutlawedSpirit]

I plan on being on guard, but I'm hoping that it's just a slow crop at this point, and simple dehydration. Hopefully nothing has been sitting in the crop long enough for anything to really set in. I have been mixing in a few drops of apple cider vinegar with the mother in the partial feedings I've been giving to help keep down anything that may have started to grow, and hopefully it's at least helping. I know it is controversial, but maybe it will help. I can say that if baby isn't empty in the morning, it is a definite run to the vet, if it is empty, a call to the vet and then it will be the vet's recommendation. Although I think if it's empty, the vet will probably say just wait and keep an eye on it, but I will be calling anyway. I just hope I can save the baby.

 

[SilverSage]

I routinely use ACV in cases where I suspect infection might try to take hold as well. It's a strategy that some of the world's top breeders have used for decades and I find it useful. I only hesitate to mention it because I'm always afraid if I offer home remedies people will delay a vet visit when they shouldn't. But as long as you promise not to do THAT, you might consider adding a small bit of ginger and cinnamon as well. Are you using pedialite In your feedings? If he is still dehydrated it's worth the effort to heat. The only concern would be that it could feed a budding yeast infection


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[OutlawedSpirit]

When I first brought him home, I offered him straight warmed pedialyte to try and break up what was lodge in his crop because it was like dough. It broke it up a little, but not enough that I was comfortable with, so I ended up just flushing his crop. I don't like doing that, but I thought it was necessary in his case. I think it was the best choice though, because after I did, gave him more warm pedialyte and let him rest in the brooder for a couple of hours he went from death's door to begging to be fed. Since then, it's been warm pedialyte and acv mixed in with his formula for half feedings every couple hours. He's been emptying pretty well so far, so I am going to try at least a mostly whole feeding for the last feeding for the night and see how he looks in the morning. Then it is either going to be a call or a trip to the vet, depending on how his crop looks.

Also, I plan on asking the vet too, but sometimes fellow breeders are just more knowledgeable about some things, since he is so far behind his siblings in growth now, do you think he'll ever really catch up, or do you think he'll always be stunted? Like I said, he's smaller than his sibling two weeks younger than him. Not that I care, just if he is always going to be stunted, then he'll always stay here. I won't let him go anywhere if he'll always be "special".

 

[SilverSage]

My experience with stunted chicks is limited to cockatiels, so keep that in mind.

In my experience stunted chicks may continue to be slightly smaller and sometimes seem to have a slightly off beak to nares ratio if you are looking for it, but have always done fine for me once recovered. I would love to hear your results on this one way or another.


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[OutlawedSpirit]

I think it's sort of funny you mention the beak to nares ratio, as soon as I brought the baby home, the first thing my wife said was that his nares looked big compared to our babies. I do see it though it is very slight. Almost like his nares grew normally, but his beak is stunted like the rest of him. I think either way, he will be held back and kept with me. Even if he is "mostly" normal, I still have a special place in my heart for "misfits" so as long as he makes it, this will always be home.

 

[SilverSage]

That, and there is always that place for the first baby you REALLY have to fight for in order to save. No matter how "normal" they end up, it's just unthinkable to part with them


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[OutlawedSpirit]

Yea, I must say, I already sort of want to name him "Zombie", as morbid as it may sound. But if you had seen how close to death he looked when i went and picked him up. He just sat and swayed, and shook, his eyes half closed. When I gave him the pedialyte, there was no feeding response whatsoever. I honestly didn't even expect him to last an hour until I fed everyone else. Within an hour, he was bouncing, begging for food. The change was astronomical. It really was like reanimating the dead. It was astounding to see. If it wasn't for the fact that I was the only person to touch him, I would have thought it was a different bird.

 

[SilverSage]

I've had experiences like that! It's crazy how much they can perk up with warmth and fluid!


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[OutlawedSpirit]

Well I ended up taking Zombie to the vet today, her crop didn't empty overnight. The vet checked her out, checked her for bacterial infections and yeast infections. He said she definitely does not have a bacterial infection, and he doesn't think she has a yeast infection, and if she does, it is very minor. He said that it can sometimes be difficult to tell what is normal and what is infection in the case of a very minor infection because there is always some yeast present.

He prescribed Nystatin as a precaution. He said I don't have to necessarily give it to her right away, he showed me how to check the back of her throat for signs of yeast if I want to wait on it for now.

He thinks her real problems is in the muscles of her crop. So he gave me Reglan which is supposed to help stimulate the muscles in her crop to contract more regularly to help move food through her crop like it should be. He suggested I try the Reglan first for a day or two, and if that doesn't help, then use the Nystatin, even if I don't see signs of a yeast infection, but to definitely use it if I do.

Hopefully this is going to be enough to at least get her back on the road to being a healthy chick again. Especially since I've named her. That will make losing her even harder if I do.

 

[wrench13]

Well now you're gonna have the rest of us rooting for Zombie too!
Perk up little one - eat!

 

[SilverSage]

This is a problem I've never faced before; please keep us updated! Now I'm wondering what would cause it. Since it sounds like the other baby had the same issue, I'm wondering if its genetic and if the pair needs to be retired.


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[OutlawedSpirit]

This is a problem I've never faced before; please keep us updated! Now I'm wondering what would cause it. Since it sounds like the other baby had the same issue, I'm wondering if its genetic and if the pair needs to be retired.


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I am not sure, though, because it is only the two I gave my friend out of nest, the rest of the clutch that I've been hand feeding is fine, so I wonder if it is more of an issue of technique that is causing it. Maybe an overfilling or underfilling of the crop that causes the muscles to not develop properly or something along those lines. I had considered genetics as well, but you would think there would at least be one of the 4 that I have that would have the same issue then, not just the two she had.

 

[SilverSage]

That's a good point. Overfilling the crop can have major consequences but they tend to be different in each species and I've never raised parrotlets.


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[EllenD]

Forgetting the brands of formula that the two of you use (that should have little to nothing to do with this issue), have you compared other factors with your friend's that may cause an impacted crop (which will in turn cause stunted growth), such as how many feedings she was giving them per day, how much on average she was giving them per feeding, etc.? I don't have any experience breeding or hand-feeding parrotlets, but I did breed budgies and cockatiels, and there is a pretty great difference between not only their crop sizes but how much they would eat, and that also seemed to depend on the thickness of the formula. Even the slight size difference between English budgies and American budgies changed the amount they would eat. Parrotlets are pretty small birds, so if your friend is used to hand-feeding much larger birds she may be feeding them too much, too thick, too quickly, etc. I'm not aware of anything specific to parrotlets that would make them have issues, but underfeeding and overfeeding both can cause crop issues.

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[SilleIN]

I am rooting for Zombie too

I have raised rosellas and macaws. The thing I have seen to make a HUGE impact on their ability to empty their crop has been the thickness of the formula. I have used 2 different brands and the way to get the optimal formula varies a lot. I have also seen, if you give too thin a formula, they empty their crop quicker, but don't put on enough weight. If the formula is too thick, they only empty the crop partially and the rest is like a dough in the crop. If you catch it the next feeding, you can give a thinner formula and massage the dough to mix with the thinner formula and it will go right through.

I also see a great difference in the optimal thickness compared to the species. The same formula brand given to rosellas and macaws needs very different thickness. The macaws get a much thicker formula than the rosellas.

Your friend seems to be feeding a too thick formula for the species and if they go with continually unemptied crop, the muscles around the crop, will not be able to function properly and eventially end up, where your Zombie is today

I hope this is of help to your friend and the best of luck with Zombie

 

[OutlawedSpirit]

Well, the Reglan seems to be doing the trick so far, fingers crossed. After the initial dose yesterday, she is supposed to get three doses a day, she has been emptying almost completely between every feed, and she emptied completely overnight, which is the first time she has done so in days. She actually woke up empty and HUNGRY this morning. She did not appreciate being taken out of the brooder, weighed, and put back before getting breakfast. I sure heard about that.

When she went to the vet yesterday she weighed 18 grams with stuff in her crop, which is also what she weighed this morning empty, which means that she not only didn't lose weight yesterday, she actually gained! That makes doubling down on her feedings worth it, even if it is a pain. I am not giving her full double feedings, but rather giving her partial feedings twice as often as her siblings. It moves through her system quicker and she does end up getting a little more in her system that way because she is so underweight. (She weighs 18 grams at 26 days old, and her sibling that is 24 days old weighs 30 grams to give you an idea just how far behind she is.)

I just hope that she continues to improve.

 

[SilleIN]

YAAAYYY!!!

Fingers crossed she has come round and is now on the mend.

As for the future, could you not show your friend, what you do? It seems you do it just right. Even if that means she has to change formula for parrotlets, it might be worth it

 

[OutlawedSpirit]

Ended up going to the vet again, and ended up with 4 more babies to try and save. I guess on a good note, figured out what the problem was, and it wasn't with technique.

Zombie has been doing better with the Reglan, and has actually gained a gram. Go Zombie! However, my friend called me yesterday and asked if I'd run to the vet with her because she had 3 baby cockatiels and a baby lovebird that were starting to all show the same symptoms Zombie had, although not quite as severe. I went over to her house and she had also found the cause. She has a small whisk she had been using to mix up formula, and it turns out it wasn't stainless steel. The babies all have zinc poisoning. That is why the parrotlets were affected first, and the hardest. They are the smallest. Then it started hitting the next size up. Needless to say, that whisk went into the trash.

It really does go to show how even the things you wouldn't think about can be a hazard. I will admit that had it been me, I would have also probably assumed it was stainless steel, because most things in the kitchen are. My silverware is stainless steel. Mistake made, lesson learned. I am just glad that she figured it out as quickly as she did, and that so far, only one baby was lost. The others are not out of the woods yet, but there is still hope for them.

As for treatment, as counter-intuitive as this probably sounds, we both chose not to treat specifically for the zinc poisoning, but rather to try and just offer supportive care at this point. This decision was reached with our vet. Although chelation could be done, he said there is a lot of risk with chicks this young, because the chelation medication can cause kidney damage and other problems that have the potential to be worse than the zinc for the babies. He said that since the source of exposure has been eliminated, if we can pull them through for now, they should be okay for now at least. If they are exposed to zinc in the future, it could make them more susceptible to toxicity at lower levels, but it would be safer to give them chelation treatments at that point than at the age they are now. He said if they take a turn for the worse, he will give it to them, but he hesitates to if we can pull them through without for now to avoid any damage while they are still developing.

I want to do more research on the chelation with relation to giving it to young chicks, but I will follow his advice for now, because it does make sense to me. He said to make sure they stay hydrated as the number one priority since zinc poisoning causes dehydration.