Probiotics

[reeisconfused]

Hello. Someone recommended that I use probiotics as a supplement for my Max because its quite beneficial.
I’m quite embarrased to say this but I don’t know much about probiotics when it comes to birds. I’m a fairly new parront - I’ve had Max for four months now but I never considered probiotics before.
Are probiotics necessary for good health and maintainance? How often are they given? I read online that they shouldn’t be given daily - is that true?
Any other important stuff I should know about probiotics?

Thank you.

 

[LordTriggs]

I'm not too well versed in probiotics but I'll offer my 2 cents.

A probiotic can be beneficial to some birds especially if they are unwell with a bacterial infection, giving their gut the good stuff they lose out on, but personally I don't think they should be given all the time. Instead a good diet should be given so they get all the stuff they need naturally. I have the same feelings towards vitamins and stuff in pill form humans take, better to get the stuff from the source than to take expensive extra man-made stuff.

I'm sure others will have differing views and I would listen to all of them, come up with your own conclusion based on what everyone has to say. I bet even I will have my view altered by other's thoughts here

 

[EllenD]

Welcome!

I'm a huge proponent of using a daily Probiotic, both for myself and for all of my birds, and all of my birds have been getting a daily Avian Probiotic for years now, and not once have they developed any type of GI Infections or become "ill" in-general. You do need to give a Probiotic supplement to your bird, your dog, cat, reptile, or yourself once every single day (my Bearded Dragon also has a Probiotic mixed into her dust for her live insects every day too, lol)...I don't know why anyone would write that you "shouldn't give a Probiotic every single day", as that's a necessary component of them working continually and being beneficial to begin with, but that just goes to show that you can't go by information on the internet, even mine I guess ...

"Probiotics" is a general-term for many different strains of bacteria that are normally found throughout the GI Tracts of most mammals, birds, reptiles, etc. (living creatures with a "typical" GI/Intestinal Tract), and that are responsible for many actions that happen throughout the GI Tract, but the big ones are #1) Keeping all Fungi from growing inside of the warm, dark, moist environment of the GI Tract (specifically the Intestines, both small and large), and then #2) Aiding in the digestion of most food that is eaten, specifically in the Small Intestine. All mammals, birds, reptiles, etc. have billions of normal, healthy strains of bacteria living throughout our GI Tracts performing these two functions 24/7, along with a bunch of other functions as well. There are several things that can occur throughout the GI Tract that will either render these healthy bacteria inoperable, or simply kill them all off quickly, the big ones being #1)Taking any types of Antibiotics, and #2) Having a condition/illness or simply an ideopathic change that causes a pH change somewhere throughout the GI Tract. I'm not going into detail here, but basically the GI Tract of most living creatures has all kinds of beneficial bacteria inside of it, from start to finish, and if that beneficial bacteria stops functioning, is killed, or in some living creatures their bodies don't have the correct GI pH level for them to grow/live in the first place, then the GI Tract can be taken-over by Fungi (including Yeast), stop properly digesting food, stop processing waste materials properly (resulting in abnormal stools/feces, such as diarrhea or constipation), or have an improper pH level which can cause many different issues/illnesses/conditions...

So, taking a daily Probiotic supplement when you're not sick or suffering from some type of GI problem will ensure that your GI Tract has plenty of normal, healthy, beneficial bacteria growing throughout it, keep your GI Tract healthy, within the correct pH range, free of Fungi/Yeast, and moving waste through correctly and continually. And if you happen to have to take an Antibiotic for any reason, if you are already taking a daily Probiotic supplement then you're not going to have to worry about a secondary Fungal/Yeast infection anywhere in the body, not only the GI Tract, but also in the Sinuses/Eyes/Ears/Throat (Thrush) or the Vagina in females. And the reason you need to take it daily is simply to keep that healthy bacteria growing, as it does die-off naturally for any number of reasons.

Probiotics are not "medications" or "drugs" in any way, and some times people confuse them for such, and feel that you're going to "overdose" on them, so that could be one reason someone would think they are not good to take every day. However, the only real negative to taking a daily Probiotic only occurs if you take more than the recommended dosage, and you really do have to take quite a bit, which can cause an upset-stomach/GI Tract. That's it. But if you simply take the recommended dose once a day, you're good to go. And most people notice that their GI Tracts are running much more efficiently and regularly after taking a daily Probiotic supplement for only a couple of weeks straight...just ask Jamie Lee Curtis about her "Activia" yogurt

That's the other thing; We take-in Probiotics in certain foods all the time, specifically fermented dairy products, such as yogurt. All milk-based yogurt contains millions/billions of Probiotics (as well as Prebiotics, but that's another thing entirely, however also very beneficial, and I take a daily supplement that contains both Prebiotics and Probiotics, as well as Digestive Enzymes)...

As far as our birds go, they even have an added organ that benefits from a daily Probiotic supplement, the Crop. I'm sure you've heard of birds developing Fungal/Yeast infections in their Crop before, as the Crop is a part of the GI Tract in birds, and is a very warm, dark, moist storage-bin for Fungi/Yeast to grow and live happily if allowed to, and actually most birds who have their Crops flushed and cultured will test positive for at least some levels of different Fungi, most commonly Yeast. So when you give your birds a daily Probiotic supplement, you're keeping their GI Tracts healthy from their Crops down to their Vents/Cloacas.

***There are a lot of different manufacturers of Avian Probiotic supplements, which contain the specific bacterial strains that will benefit birds the most, and in the correct quantities for birds (obviously they require a smaller amount than a person would). The two most commonly-found Avian Probiotic supplements are #1) Benebac, and #2) Qwiko Avian Probiotics. Benebac isn't made specifically for birds per se, it's labeled for dogs, cats, birds, rodents, etc. But it's an all-inclusive Probiotic supplement that works very well, and it comes in both a powder and a "paste"...Qwiko Avian Probiotics are made specifically for birds, and is in powder-form, and it comes with a pre-measured "scoop" inside the bottle (not really a "scoop" at all, it's a very small amount of powder that you simply sprinkle on top of whatever their "staple" food is, either pellets or seed-mix)...I've been giving all of my birds Qwiko Avian Probiotics once daily for almost 2 years now (prior to that I always used a human probiotic supplement and crushed the tablets)...My birds eat pellets as their dietary "staple", but they also each get 1/4 cup of a healthy, low-fat seed-mix each day too, in-addition to their pellets. So I always mix one "scoop" of the Qwiko Avian Probiotic powder into their daily seed-mix, as it's a much easier way to give it to them and to ensure they get the entire dose; if you sprinkle one "scoop" of the Qwiko powder on top of their seed-mix first thing each morning, and then mix it in very slightly, just enough that they can't see it, they will ingest it bit by bit with every seed they put inside their mouths/beak, as the powder easily dusts/coats the outside of each seed. If you don't feed your birds any seed-mix every day but rather just a pellet every day, then you simply sprinkle the "scoop" of powder all over their pellets, and try to spread it out so it's not very visible to them, as sometimes when they see anything "different" they refuse to eat it...Also, if you give your bird a daily "chop" mix of veggies/fruit, it's very easy to mix the very small amount of Qwiko powder into that as well and they can't see it, you just have to make sure that they eat all of their chop/veggies/fruit each day...My guys always finish all of their daily seed-mix (as they only get a very small amount each day), so that works best for them. They have no idea that it's there, as the Qwiko Avian Probiotic powder really is an extremely small amount of powder that you have to mix in. It's best that you give them their daily Probiotic supplement first thing in the morning on their new food...

If you choose Benebac Probiotics, either the paste or the powder, it works just as well as the Qwiko probiotics, but it's a larger amount of powder than the Qwiko by-far, and I've not ever given the paste formulation of Benebac, but would imagine that it would be much more difficult to give them...That's the main reason I chose to use the Qwiko Avian Probiotic powder, because it's a very small amount of daily powder that is easy to hide in their food/seed-mix. And it's also available at any Petco for $9.99, and one bottle lasts for quite a long time, as it's a large bottle compared to the size of each dose. I would say I buy a new bottle once every 3 months, and that's giving it every day to 4 larger birds and then 8 Budgies...So if you only have 1 bird a bottle of the Qwiko powder should last you over 6 months.

I would highly suggest that everyone consider giving a daily Avian Probiotic to all of their birds, as it can't hurt them, it can only help them, and again, I can only speak from my own experience with myself and my birds, as well as my female Bearded Dragon (who I got when she was a month old and 5" long, and who just turned 2 in October and is now 21" long and healthy as can be, never had any type of bacterial, fungal, or parasitic infection, and more importantly has never once been Impacted, Prolapsed, and who has a regular bowel movement at least twice a week)...And if you don't want to give your birds and other pets a daily Probiotic supplement, at the very least you should give them one any time they are put on any antibiotic, from day one of them taking the antibiotic through at least one week AFTER they stop taking the antibiotic, as this will keep them from getting a Fungal/Yeast infection secondary to the antibiotics killing-off all of the healthy bacteria throughout their GI Tracts, which is responsible for keeping the growth of all Fungi/Yeast in-check.

 

[EllenD]

I'm not too well versed in probiotics but I'll offer my 2 cents.

A probiotic can be beneficial to some birds especially if they are unwell with a bacterial infection, giving their gut the good stuff they lose out on, but personally I don't think they should be given all the time. Instead a good diet should be given so they get all the stuff they need naturally. I have the same feelings towards vitamins and stuff in pill form humans take, better to get the stuff from the source than to take expensive extra man-made stuff.

I'm sure others will have differing views and I would listen to all of them, come up with your own conclusion based on what everyone has to say. I bet even I will have my view altered by other's thoughts here

Triggs, while I totally agree with you as far as giving your birds an extra "vitamin" supplement, because they should not ever need one if they are eating a healthy, daily diet, I don't think you understand what a Probiotic is or what it does, because it's not something that birds "get from a healthy daily diet" or "naturally" from anywhere else, unlike vitamins and minerals. "Probiotics" are actually strains of beneficial bacteria that naturally live throughout the GI Tract of all living creatures with a "typical" GI Tract, and are responsible for the normal, healthy digestion of food, for turning waste-products into normal feces, and for keeping any and all Fungi/Yeast from growing in the ideal place for them to grow, the warm, dark, moist intestinal tract...So Probiotics are not something that "birds can get from their food" or get "naturally", unless you decide to feed them a bit of Soy-Yogurt once a day, as of course they can't be fed lactose-based food-products, such as yogurt, which are pretty-much the only "normal" food-sources that contain Probiotics. There are however many conditions that can either render the natural, healthy bacteria in the GI Tract useless and not "working" correctly, or just kill it off completely. That's why it's extremely beneficial to give not only your birds a once-daily Probiotic supplement (in order to keep it growing/present throughout their GI Tract), but also yourself, and any other pets you have that might benefit, such as certain Reptiles, like Bearded Dragons, who often become Impacted and have trouble digesting their live insects...

****Also, birds have an extra organ that is the PERFECT Fungal/Yeast storage and growth container...the CROP! So giving your bird a daily Probiotic supplement will also keep any Fungi/Yeast from growing inside of the Crop as well...

I just wanted to point that out, because while you're totally correct about how you shouldn't need to give your bird any extra, daily vitamin or mineral supplement if they are eating a healthy diet, and that it's much more beneficial for living creatures to get their necessary vitamins and minerals from their food rather than from a supplement (unless your bird suffers from a Nutritional Deficiency and your CAV has prescribed a vitamin/mineral supplement), I didn't want anyone to think that birds could get "Probiotics" from their diet naturally, or that they should be feeding their bird(s) any type of yogurt or lactose-based products that do actually contain natural Probiotic bacterial strains, as birds cannot properly digest lactose...You cannot compare giving your bird, reptile, or yourself a daily Probiotic (or Prebiotic/Digestive Enzyme) supplement that is "man-made" with giving them a daily, man-made Vitamin/Mineral supplement. It's not the same situation at all, not in any way...

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I think Ellen covered the actual biology part of it. So I'll just speak to my familiarity with it.

In Asia, probiotic drinks are very popular (for humans). They're actually sold right next to the milk and yogurt in the grocery stores. Most people will drink it regularly, regardless of whether they're ill or not. And it's not always drunk for its health benefits - they make full-sized probiotic drinks in fruit drink shops and bubble tea shops simply because they're tasty.

My vet does recommend Cairo take probiotics every other day, regardless of his health condition. She says it'll help lessen visits to her clinic And luckily Cairo likes his probiotics. We got the powder directly from the clinic and store it in the fridge (tropical country life). Our vet said we can buy it from parrot stores locally, but we haven't run out of it yet.

We were advised to sprinkle it on top of his food and make sure he eats it immediately. My concern then was that he doesn't finish his food, which meant he wouldn't have the full 'dose'. So I mix the power in 0.5ml water and immediately give to him via syringe (since I want to keep up with his syringe training for whenever he might need medicines via syringe). He runs down my arm, trying to get to it the moment I take out the container from the fridge.

It's hard to say anecdotally if it's helped him. But I do think his digestive system is more stable, excluding his latest illness, and it gives me a peace of mind. If I think his droppings look slightly off, I make sure I give him a dose that day and it seems to fix the problem (when it's not a food allergy or something more serious). It helps me feel better, knowing that I'm actively helping his body take care of itself.

Definitely give it a go

 

[EllenD]

We need to think of Probiotics (and Prebiotics) used daily when we are "well" as being a "Preventative" measure, just like eating a healthy diet, exercising, etc. are. It doesn't make much sense to wait until we have a heart-attack to start eating well and exercising, but that's what the majority of our population does, especially in the US. If we eat healthy diets and exercise regularly, then we probably aren't going to have a heart-attack, unless we are genetically pre-disposed to them...Taking a daily Probiotic isn't any different in concept at all. And again, there is no risk or down-side to taking a daily Probiotic for you or your bird or your Bearded Dragon, unless you give them/take more than the recommended daily dose, which will result in an upset GI Tract/stomach.

Again, I think a lot of people think of Probiotics as being "medications" or "drugs", and so they fear taking them, which is understandable, as we do take too many medications on a regular basis. But Probiotics are nothing more than bacterial-strains that naturally reside inside our GI Tracts and keep them healthy. So if we think of Probiotics as being "Preventative Care", then it should make more sense...

It's odd that so many people all across the world take at the least a daily Multi-Vitamin supplement, and at worst they take a Multi-Vitamin along with several individual Vitamin and Mineral supplements on top of the Multi-Vitamin, for no other reason than they think they should, not knowing or understanding that their bodies are not using them at all if they are eating a relatively-healthy diet each day; most of the Vitamins and Minerals people take each day in supplement form are either excreted from their bodies in their urine, or they are stored in their fat cells continually, which can result in toxicity if it continues long-term and cause many more issues than good. Yet they are afraid of taking a daily Probiotic, mostly because they just don't understand what Probiotics are, what their functions are, or the fact that they are naturally found throughout their GI Tracts and if they aren't we become ill. It's all about education...

And while I totally agree that if you are feeding your bird(s) or other pets (and yourself) a regular, daily diet that is healthy and varied that you shouldn't ever give your birds or other pets a daily Multi-Vitamin/Mineral supplement, Probiotics are not provided in even the healthiest diet for your birds, as they are not naturally-occurring in any of the regular foods we feed our birds, so an added daily Probiotic supplement is necessary if you want to provide your birds with the added health-benefits that they provide...

 

[ChristaNL]

Thanks to you guys here (and yes Ellen definitely looking at you ) I have started Sunny on probiotics and milkthistle as well -- since she already is on het painmeds etc it seemed like a good idea.
Now I will not be able to say "the plucking/ painfull wings/ cranky disposition are definately fixed by using product A (or B) "- but if I end up with a happier bird... I do not care!


I really had issues finding a pure probiotic so she is currently on a "booster-mix".
(Probiotics and some more usefull items). With her history she can use them well, so it's okay for now.

 

[EllenD]

Milk-Thistle is another excellent supplement that can specifically benefit birds and certain reptiles (such as Bearded Dragons, Geckos, Iguanas, etc. that we tend to feed very fatty diets to), and one of the few that you can actually see the benefits of very quickly after starting them on it. I've seen blood-work from both birds and Bearded Dragons suffering from Fatty Liver Disease turn-around in a matter of a month or two after them starting a daily dose of Milk Thistle...amazing.

I myself take a Probiotic supplement once a day that also contains other "supportive" components added to it as well, including naturally-occurring Digestive Enzymes...And I have used this exact same supplement several times in Bearded Dragons who have been surrendered to the Rescue and that were thought to be "dying" because they hadn't eaten in weeks nor had a bowel movement...People insist on feeding their Bearded Dragons very fatty, unhealthy insects that they also cannot properly digest due to their hard, exterior chitlin shells, the main culprit being Mealworms, and I can typically tell that they have a GI blockage/Impaction that is massive and been there for weeks if not months simply by palpating their bellies (and also feeding them ANY non-living insects with an outer shell or exoskeleton, specifically insects that are "freeze-dried", which offer them absolutely no nutritional value or hydration, and do nothing but cause GI blockages)...Their owners try everything from syringe-feeding them Pedialyte, constant warm-water soaks, etc., and all the poor things can do is just "strain" continually, and they often Prolapse their intestines in the process as well....I will crush one tablet of the Probiotic supplement with added Digestive Enzymes, along with some added Papaya supplement, and then mix a certain amount of the resulting powder into some Prune baby-food with some unflavored Pedialyte, mix it all up, microwave for 1 minutes, and then feed them at least 3ml of it (which they usually take willingly because they are so dehydrated their eyes are sinking into their skulls), and I'll give them at least 3ml or more in an oral syringe 4 times the first day, then twice the next day and then an hour after their second dose the second day they go right into a very warm water bath in the bathtub, so they can swim and move their bodies/legs around, and usually they with have a massive bowel movement that is nothing but tons and tons of undigested Mealworm or Superworm shells and undigested Crickets and Dubia Roaches...And I'll continue feeding them this slurry 4 times a day, and each day after they have 2 feedings of it they get another bath, and it usually takes 3-4 days for the entire GI blockage to pass and until you see an actual "normal" bit of feces...Then they are totally fine, their colors go to normal again, the black beard goes away, they perk right up and want to eat everything in sight, and start putting weight back on immediately...

I'm telling ya...Prebiotics, Probiotics, and Digestive Enzymes (and if it's really, really, really bad I'll also add a touch of Psyllium Husk )...

 

[Laurasea]

I had a yeasty smelling green cheeck conure , who makes soup daily and bathes in that same bowl. I clean it several times a day... I think that's how her GI got out of balance. Anyway EllenD and Noodles recommend the probiotics!!!! She had been smelling yeasty for about two weeks. Well after the probiotics in three days no more yeast smell!! Abd she gained weight! I use live culture yogurt now about three times a week, each bird eats about two mouth full , they like it , or I'd say about two thumbnail size portions. Their poops have never looked better, and Ta-dah has never smelled yeasty again!!! So yes I am a big fan now!!!!! Thanks forum !! Thanks Ellen and Noodles!
Edit: I would also add in nature the birds are with a flock and swap bacteria back n forth. Like I read couples who kiss their significant other have healthier gastrointestinal Flora. So my thinking is that's why probiotics are healthy in our more artificial environment. Cuz before thinking and researching after the recommendations, I had thought why would that be needed? Now I am a believer!!!!

 

[reeisconfused]

Thank you all for your responses!
I learned a lot from your insight - I’ll be starting probiotics soon for Max!

 

[noodles123]

I am pro- pro-biotics (for humans and birds)....It is worth noting that our bacterial flora is NOT the same as theirs.


I take probiotics or drink them etc, but I don't consume added probiotics in everything I consume, as I think that is a bit over-the-top. It seems that as of late , food manufacturers have begun adding them to everything -they are in some cereals, candy, waters, yogurts, pills etc...Everyone wants to ride this wave. While I do think daily probiotics are important for birds and people (given the number of foods/lifestyle choices that destroy the good bacteria)...I don't think "synthetic" sources would be necessary if our lives weren't so processed (as we would consume more natural sources and engage in less harmful eating habits etc). Humans and birds traditionally would have consumed many naturally occurring sources of probiotics, and decreased exposure to environmental/dietary toxins would have kept our beneficial intestinal flora alive and well.
As it is, I think humans and domestic birds could use the help (aka taking a supplement, or in humans, eating lots of "live"/fermented foods.


My bird's healthy bacteria levels were VERY low before starting her on them, and now her poop looks so much better in gram-stains. I give her a set amount daily.

At least in humans, a large percentage of our immunity is housed in our stomachs (so to speak), so barring extenuating circumstances or excess, I think they are a great first line of defense.


Nevertheless, I do think there can sometimes be "too much of a good thing". I recently heard about some research in humans related to probiotics---it was interesting and very biology-heavy, but basically some of the more negative possibilities were summarized here:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180806095213.htm
and here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...safe-study-shows-we-really-don-t-know-n891801